Really nice explanation of pct, helped me a lot.

But I've got a small problem. I'm doing the hcg and aromasin mct on a test p (8 weeks) and winny (5 weeks) cycle.

For PCT I can only get my hands on novla and aromasin. Is that enough? Or should I wait and see if I can get Clomid later on?

Really appreciate the input!

 

Really nice explanation of pct, helped me a lot.

But I've got a small problem. I'm doing the hcg and aromasin mct on a test p (8 weeks) and winny (5 weeks) cycle.

For PCT I can only get my hands on novla and aromasin. Is that enough? Or should I wait and see if I can get Clomid later on?

Really appreciate the input!

You can recover by just stopping cold turkey but chances are you will lose more of your gains and feel like crap for that much longer so yes nolva and aromasin would help but it's not optimal

After 8 weeks only you could chance it but personally I'd rather see some clomiphene in there to get you back up and running that much quicker

 

Starting a test-e cycle. So I should begin HCG after two weeks correct?

 

Sorry if this is already in the thread as it's far to Long to read on bank holiday Monday ; -)

I've been on 9 month now. I was going to come off but I'm gonna take it to the year now, I can't see another 12 weeks making much difference and I'll get summer out way then pct with good break from gear.

My question - will I need a power pct ? If so, whst is a power pct ?

 

Sorry if this is already in the thread as it's far to Long to read on bank holiday Monday ; -)

I've been on 9 month now. I was going to come off but I'm gonna take it to the year now, I can't see another 12 weeks making much difference and I'll get summer out way then pct with good break from gear.

My question - will I need a power pct ? If so, whst is a power pct ?

you dont seem too concerned about your recovery if you cant be arsed to read a 2 page thread

youve basically skipped past every answer to your questions then asked me to repeat it all

 

There is alot of talk in my gym whether hcg is subconscious or inter. Iv always done subconscious! Whats peoples thoughts?

 

What you mean mate you've always thought about it(subconscious)?or you've always injected subcutaneous?

 

Ok So, I drew up this table based on your cycle for first timers @swole troll

My understanding is that I would do this exact routine from week 1 to week 15. I would then wait 21 days after the last Test E shot, then start PCT, but I will carry on pinning HCG (meaning that HCG is run for 17weeks).

Do I carry on using the Arimidex until PCT too?

 

Ok So, I drew up this table based on your cycle for first timers @swole troll

My understanding is that I would do this exact routine from week 1 to week 15. I would then wait 21 days after the last Test E shot, then start PCT, but I will carry on pinning HCG (meaning that HCG is run for 17weeks).

Do I carry on using the Arimidex until PCT too?

View attachment 126815

The AI is individual but yes I advocate AI usage throughout the entire cycle and the duration of PCT

You'd run your hcg from the start of the cycle until 3 days prior to PCT

 

Hey, hope you do not mind me chiming in on this.

10 month Blast (750mg Test E) + Cruise (250mg Test). This was repeated twice within the 10month period, i.e. 2 lots of Blasts and Cruises. There seems to be more and more people stating recovery is nigh on impossible when B&C (Contrary to what my experienced friends say) so I am just looking to see if you have been in a similar situation? I am looking to get the swimmers in peak physical form and my PCT will consist of:

Clomid - 100/100/50/50/50/50

Nolva - 40/40/20/20/20/20

Do you think this will be aggressive enough to fire up the HPTA and get my lil swimmers back in the race?

Thanks for any info/experience

 

Hey, hope you do not mind me chiming in on this.

10 month Blast (750mg Test E) + Cruise (250mg Test). This was repeated twice within the 10month period, i.e. 2 lots of Blasts and Cruises. There seems to be more and more people stating recovery is nigh on impossible when B&C (Contrary to what my experienced friends say) so I am just looking to see if you have been in a similar situation? I am looking to get the swimmers in peak physical form and my PCT will consist of:

Clomid - 100/100/50/50/50/50

Nolva - 40/40/20/20/20/20

Do you think this will be aggressive enough to fire up the HPTA and get my lil swimmers back in the race?

Thanks for any info/experience

The pct I advise is at the start of this thread

Whoever told you recovery is near impossible after blast and cruise is talking rubbish and it's a blanket statement not taking into consideration the compounds used and how long they were shut down for in total

I blasted for 6 months stright, ran the above protocol and was back to normal within a few months post pct

I've known and read of many people on for upward of 5 years and coming off and regaining an appreciable level of T

Run the pct I posted itt, any other variation is not what I recommend for anyone who's been on any significant amount of time

 

I need to stick to reputable UK boards it seems when looking for information. Cheers mate for the info

 

@swole troll hey swole troll! is there a possiblity contacting you somehow? would have a question - would really appreciate the help!

 

is it not a question that could benefit all the readers of this thread?

 

@Joshua88 ok you are somewhat misinformed on certain things and you seem to cross facts and fill in the gaps which is ok as it shows you have done some research but youre kind of piecing things together in an incorrect fashion and drawing your own conclusions

firstly yes oestrogen is suppressive however you were suppressed when you started injecting testosterone, you dont become "more suppressed" from your oestrogen getting high, your hypothalamus doesnt give a fvck if its oestrogen, testosterone or progesterone that is elevated, if any of those hormones or any combination of them are above range then it will signal the pituitary to stop signalling the testicles to produce testosterone

so dont sweat the dbol mishap, a large portion of guys on gear are walking around with unhealthy levels of E2 but ignorance is bliss and without bloods and the fact they dont get gyno they assume all is well under the bonnet

youre freaking out about PCT timings and stuff but you have to remember you can recover with nothing at all, SERM's arnt the on switch for the HPTA, they merely assist like the hand on the back of someone first riding a bicycle

your environmental factors certainly play a role on testosterone levels, lack of sleep, vitamin deficiency, malnourishment and stress all play a factor in your hormone levels

your pituitary has responded and is sending gonadotropin signals so with time things will improve, dont bother taking a load of serm's now, just let your body do its thing

assist the recovery of your T levels with getting decent sleep consistently, supplement 5000iu vitamin D everyday if youre not already, try not to get too stressed

the results of peoples levels improving on SERM's that youve seen is exactly the reason we use them, to kick start the pituitary into sending LH and FSH to the testicles to produce sperm and testosterone, there is no need for you to do that now

you finished your PCT what 3 months ago? follow the above steps and dont bother taking bloods again until around October if you must
personally i wouldnt even bother with bloods again unless you are planning to go back on, everything is responding as it should be some guys just take longer to fully recover than others

you probably feel like sh1t because of lack of sleep and stressing about your hormones

 

@Joshua88 ok you are somewhat misinformed on certain things and you seem to cross facts and fill in the gaps which is ok as it shows you have done some research but youre kind of piecing things together in an incorrect fashion and drawing your own conclusions

firstly yes oestrogen is suppressive however you were suppressed when you started injecting testosterone, you dont become "more suppressed" from your oestrogen getting high, your hypothalamus doesnt give a fvck if its oestrogen, testosterone or progesterone that is elevated, if any of those hormones or any combination of them are above range then it will signal the pituitary to stop signalling the testicles to produce testosterone

so dont sweat the dbol mishap, a large portion of guys on gear are walking around with unhealthy levels of E2 but ignorance is bliss and without bloods and the fact they dont get gyno they assume all is well under the bonnet

youre freaking out about PCT timings and stuff but you have to remember you can recover with nothing at all, SERM's arnt the on switch for the HPTA, they merely assist like the hand on the back of someone first riding a bicycle

your environmental factors certainly play a role on testosterone levels, lack of sleep, vitamin deficiency, malnourishment and stress all play a factor in your hormone levels

your pituitary has responded and is sending gonadotropin signals so with time things will improve, dont bother taking a load of serm's now, just let your body do its thing

assist the recovery of your T levels with getting decent sleep consistently, supplement 5000iu vitamin D everyday if youre not already, try not to get too stressed

the results of peoples levels improving on SERM's that youve seen is exactly the reason we use them, to kick start the pituitary into sending LH and FSH to the testicles to produce sperm and testosterone, there is no need for you to do that now

you finished your PCT what 3 months ago? follow the above steps and dont bother taking bloods again until around October if you must
personally i wouldnt even bother with bloods again unless you are planning to go back on, everything is responding as it should be some guys just take longer to fully recover than others

you probably feel like sh1t because of lack of sleep and stressing about your hormones

well first of all thanks a lot for the quick answer!

sorry english isn't my native language, i'm trying my best haha!

ammm, yeah well thats true, once you get testosterone in your system over longer period of time you "shut down" - i just always though that once you add any other AAS like tren/deca or whatsoever - i dont know how to express it, you get "shut down" even more(?) - there are no studies but people report in that they have harder times recovering after usage of these compounds, so i though if you don't controll your estrogene throught the cycle leading to pct you get even more "shut down" - i think you mentioned in one of your articles that it's "200x" more supressive, but yeah it makes sense, once you're shut down you can get more shutdown i guess, haha

yeah, i wasnt that "crucial" about it, i was always focused and very strong in the pct and after mentally - ofcourse it makes a difference but i didnt really think it in that way until i've started researching more since you mentioned dr. scallys power pct and in some posts it's alrdy written like in a way that once you fk up timings, your pct is a waste..

had a friend who abused AAS including the harsh compounds like tren deca for 2 years and he didnt even use a PCT and eventially he recovered..

----------

my sleeping is alright, i dont have regime but i get in up to 10 hours of sleep a day

if this is worth mentioning:

5000 ius Vitamin D a day

3g vitamin c, morning/pre-post workout

8g citrulin/10g arginine a day - only see positive effects, for erections aswell

macros: 4300kcal : 265g p 590g p 100g f, might increase the fat and go down with carbs a little bit

and yeah, thats how it looks at the time

so you think i'm on the right path, right? i mean i didn't use HCG and the cycle was like for 6 months.. ;/

i even researched about testicles size, i dont think it's really atrophied, it's like 2 inches if you take it from one side to the other.. I guess when people talk about atrophy, it's like really when the size of testicles are like peanuts, right?

the worst case would be when the LH/FSH would be very low and my testicles would have atrophied, then it would make sense to use HCG to get them working somehow and then add clomiphene/tamoxifene after it to the work?

i see guys who don't come back but they have their LH/FSH under 0.5, this is like the worst case, as you said my LH/FSH isn't that bad and it's on the right way.

i'm just so paranoid, i was thinking that i'm f**ked up and i won't really come back and won't even be able to build muscle in a natural way.. I was doing alright till i saw the results, then i crashed in my head - became all these negative effects and then i even had a negative mentality on my training, i was always putting in my head that i'm not strong anymore, that i can't be strong as i used to since my test is low - yeah i know it's really fked up..

i'm going to see my doctor again in like a week, it's been a month since i started sleeping more and added Vitamin D - do you think i should take the blood, coz it would be for free, if i take in october i have to pay from my own money - i would take in october then again anyways, or you think nothing really changed in a period of 4 weeks and it would just fk me up more when i see the same values again..

and yeah it's been like 5months after PCT Now.. but the cycle was harsh and 6 months! i want to cycle again, i'm planing to hit the stage - but nothing extreme, i would just cycle the prep, i'm looking good while i'm off anyways and for the shows i want to do, it's enough

 

during pct your body will happily dispose of all that hard earned muscle if you don't make the environment perfect for it to justify holding onto it, do this by keeping intensity high but sessions slightly shorter, train no more than 4 days per week ideally 3 with a days rest in between each session, drop cardio for the duration of pct, eat in a very slight surplus, keep your protein high and get plenty of sleep (ideally sleep without setting an alarm.

Im 16 days post final pin of test e from a ~16 week test only cycle. Running hcg throughout. I have been upping the hcg during the clearance phase which has filled the nuts a little more ready for SERMs in a few days (starting 21 days post final test e shot)

First 10 days or so post final test shot my workouts were on par. Then from this week i am really feeling it.

Im going to reduce the volume of my work outs and concentrate on maintenance moving forward.

My question is, after PCT is over and natural hormones come back to normal do you start to increase the volume?

Im pretty surprised on how drastically endurance and the number of sets i can do without burning out has dropped in such a short time! I feel more lethargic during workouts and also finding doms is a lot more apparent!

It feels worse than when i was off cycle. Im still stronger and can shift more weight but im hoping that once things do start to stablise that volume can be increased a little.

Also still being on HCG i thought this should keep T levels up and prevent low T symptoms?

Cheers,

Mark

 

My question is, after PCT is over and natural hormones come back to normal do you start to increase the volume?
Just go by feel but as a natural there is no need to go bananas on volume anyway, focus more on bringing your major barbell movements up and hitting them 2-3 times per week, avoid failure, eat and sleep plenty and try to keep stress to a minimum

Also still being on HCG i thought this should keep T levels up and prevent low T symptoms?
it will to an extent but youre still going from super physiological levels of testosterone down to a more modest amount albeit still higher than someone natural if you are blasting HCG however its still a step down from 500mg of test


i blast and cruise and even i feel a bit like the wind's been taken out of my sail when i drop to a cruise

see BOLD above

 

heyy! i would like to ask , how it can work if non hcg used in cycle? i should finish my hcg shots and after that start SERMS or i can combine all together from day one of pct? also can i use arimidex instead of aromasin? thank you !

 

@swole troll

Brilliant post mate, will definetley follow the PCT protocol, as it sounds good...

Just a few questions, I have not used HCG in my previous cycles, but i'm looking to cycle for longer this time. I'm into WK10 into my cycle of Sus, Tren A, Mast E. I assume they're would be no loss in starting HCG 1000 every week up until before PCT now? or is it too late to have an affect?

I'm looking to extend the cycle to maybe 20 weeks if not longer, as i'm feeling good and generally OK

Also is it taking creatine whilst on cycle? at what dosage would you say?

Many thanks mate

 

@swole troll hello! i would like if possible to answer me a question about tamoxifen and hcg...okay we use hcg witch is LH to give signals to our testis to work , using tamoxifen alone hcg will only help for e2 control or tamoxifen still will stimulate lh and fsh from our pituary gland?

 

Tamoxifen does nothing for e2 control it's is a serm that binds to the breast site preventing oestrogen from getting to the receptor and causing glandular growth (gynecomastia)

It works in a similar way to clomiphene in stimulating gonadotropin signal's only to a lesser extent

Tamoxifen is the most expendable compound of pct although still a worthy aspect imo

 

@swole troll can you go over the logic behind your pct aromasin dosage? Ie if you were keeping E2 in range on cycle with 12.5mg eod, why would you then need 25mg ed when you come off and the test clears from your body? Or is it a case of purposely driving it as low as possible to help recover HPTA function quicker as any E2 is suppressive?

 

Oestrogen control is vital during pct

The hypothalamus will not signal the pituitary to send out lh and fsh until oestrogen is within range

Elevated testosterone, oestrogen and progesterone will inhibit this function

Part of the reason we implement a serm is to cut off that negative feedback from circulating oestrogen which tricks the hypothalamus into thinking that oestrogen is also low and as a result kicks out the signal for the pituitary to start sending gonadtropin signals

By lowering e2 with an aromatase inhibitor you prevent a spike in E2 as you come off arimidex (the ai I reccomend for a first cycle) as well as keeping E2 low enough to trick the hypothalamus into starting up as test, oest and progesterone are all below range

Also as hormones fluctuate when going from exogenous to endogenous you do get ratios that can cause sides such as high oestrogen and of course low testosterone

 

I can't pull up the details as I'm on my phone but if you Google aromasin effect on igf, shbg and test you will also see why aromasin usage particularly Is prudent during pct

 

what is the advantage of adding the nolvadex?

 

@swole troll

Need a bit of advice mate regarding timing of PCT.

My last shot of Omnadren was on December 18th, my last shots of trenbolone acetate and trestolone acetate were today, December 31st. When should I start using clomid and tamoxifen? Both on January 8th or before?

 

@swole troll

Need a bit of advice mate regarding timing of PCT.

My last shot of Omnadren was on December 18th, my last shots of trenbolone acetate and trestolone acetate were today, December 31st. When should I start using clomid and tamoxifen? Both on January 8th or before?

start it 9th of Jan

thats a monday so easy to fill your dossette from that day

 

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50 5 weeks total

Nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20/20 7 weeks total

Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5/ followed by 12.5 EOD 5 weeks total

Sorry to sound dumb but Should nolvadex and clomid be run together or separate?

 

Concurrent usage

 

Hi, I am starting a test/dbol cycle shortly and the stuff is on its way. I have always been told with pct its just the the nolva,clomid etc after your cycle. I am taking arimidex ED, but do I really need to take the hcg through the course of the cycle.

 

^^

aman1990. Your post makes it evident that you have done little research. I strongly suggest you educate yourself somewhat before you embark on any steroid usage.

 

you then run

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50 5 weeks total

Nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20/20 7 weeks total

Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5/ followed by 12.5 EOD 5 weeks total

Hi swole, thanks for these posts - great information. I plan on running my first cycle soon and want to follow your cycle by the letter. Only problem being that I can't get hold of Aromasin. Can I substitute with Arimidex? If so, in what quantities?

Thanks

 

Hi swole, thanks for these posts - great information. I plan on running my first cycle soon and want to follow your cycle by the letter. Only problem being that I can't get hold of Aromasin. Can I substitute with Arimidex? If so, in what quantities?

Thanks

Yes it's fine

Aromasin to arimidex roughly converts tab to tab

So 25mg / 1mg aromasin / arimidex

 

@swole troll I have always tapered off Arimidex before starting clomid and Nolva. Would you say that my recovery is likely to be easier if I carry on with the arimidex all the way through PCT? The sound of doing that makes me worry that my estrogen might crash? Do you advise to use smaller doses of adex compared to what you used on cycle?

Thanks

 

@swole troll I have always tapered off Arimidex before starting clomid and Nolva. Would you say that my recovery is likely to be easier if I carry on with the arimidex all the way through PCT? The sound of doing that makes me worry that my estrogen might crash? Do you advise to use smaller doses of adex compared to what you used on cycle?

Thanks

Yes I always advise an ai during pct

Taper off the ai the week before you stop nolva (unless using aromasin)

 

Is there any good ways to determine estrogen levels, I read the handbook but most of the symptoms can be either high or low... the only sure one is the whole puffy nipples/gyno from the looks of things. I am doing your beginner cycle you suggested in your thread (15 weeks of test-e (2x 250 a week)) and I was doing 0.5mg of arimdex EOD from day 1 and the first 2 weeks I was feeling awesome, lots of energy, horny af then I started adding HCG at the start of week 3 and I've not been feeling right lately (tired, fatigued, not as horny) I've got a feeling I am more on the crashed low E2 side than the high because I haven't got the whole puffy nips thing and don't exactly feel emotional or anything like that. I've come off AI altogether for a 4-5 days now and I am feeling a bit better admittedly, do you reckon I should jump back on the AI but maybe at 0.25mg eod instead?

(also I am going to get bloodwork most likely at week 6 (currently start of week 4) but I'd like to know in the meantime if I am honest)

Cheers.

 

Is there any good ways to determine estrogen levels, I read the handbook but most of the symptoms can be either high or low... the only sure one is the whole puffy nipples/gyno from the looks of things. I am doing your beginner cycle you suggested in your thread (15 weeks of test-e (2x 250 a week)) and I was doing 0.5mg of arimdex EOD from day 1 and the first 2 weeks I was feeling awesome, lots of energy, horny af then I started adding HCG at the start of week 3 and I've not been feeling right lately (tired, fatigued, not as horny) I've got a feeling I am more on the crashed low E2 side than the high because I haven't got the whole puffy nips thing and don't exactly feel emotional or anything like that. I've come off AI altogether for a 4-5 days now and I am feeling a bit better admittedly, do you reckon I should jump back on the AI but maybe at 0.25mg eod instead?

(also I am going to get bloodwork most likely at week 6 (currently start of week 4) but I'd like to know in the meantime if I am honest)

Cheers.

best way is blood work

https://www.medichecks.com/oestradiol-tests/oestradiol-blood

the e2 handbook covers all sides

https://www.superiormuscle.com/forums/steroid-articles/59096-estrogen-handbook

 

Quick question I've got my medichecks kit now for test+e2 now just wondering when the best time to take it will be, I am on week 4 of my cycle and at the moment I am currently doing every Monday and Thursdays doing 250mg of test e, 500iu of HCG and then taking 0.5mg of arimidex. Reckon I should switch back to 0.5mg arimidex every other day and then do the test next week on Wednesday morning or something?

 

do it the day after your shot as this will be the highest your levels will be

also no need to pin medium chain esters x2 per week

 

Swole Troll, mate, thank you very much for such a great pct guide. Could you please tell me how much time after pct should pass before the possibility of the beggining of the next cycle. If there are any terms or rules? How long does it take for serms to leave the system. It is now 3 weeks since I finished pct and restored the natural level of hormones. Whether it possible for me to start the new cycle or I should wait? If yes, then how long? I've heard about that the length of rest= length of cycle+ pct. But in case if the cycle was more than year, for example.

 

The time on plus pct equals time off is a rough guideline at best

Some will recover and have healthy bloods well before that, some might take longer

The only true way of knowing is bloodwork

You'd want both of these to decipher whether or not you are in an ideal state to cycle again

https://www.medichecks.com/hormone-tests/sports-hormone-check

https://www.medichecks.com/hormone-tests/hormone-check-male