[den84]

I'll explain my pct:

week 1,2,3,4: [Sunday] 1000 IU hCG + 2.5 mg letrozole
[Thursday] 1000 IU hCG + 2.5 mg letrozole

week 5: [Sunday] 1000 IU hCG + 2.5 mg letrozole
[Thursday] 1000 IU hCG

week 6,7,8,9: 50mg ed clomid + 20 mg ed nolvadex

I came from the following cycle: 300 mg / week testosterone propionate, 152 mg week parabolan (2.5 mg letrozole Sunday and Thursday). No hcg during, unfortunately ... What do you think? last year I found myself well with this pct (blood tests have been clear). The next cycle will begin using hcg During

 

[swole troll]

I'll explain my pct:

week 1,2,3,4: [Sunday] 1000 IU hCG + 2.5 mg letrozole
[Thursday] 1000 IU hCG + 2.5 mg letrozole

week 5: [Sunday] 1000 IU hCG + 2.5 mg letrozole
[Thursday] 1000 IU hCG

week 6,7,8,9: 50mg ed clomid + 20 mg ed nolvadex

I came from the following cycle: 300 mg / week testosterone propionate, 152 mg week parabolan (2.5 mg letrozole Sunday and Thursday). No hcg during, unfortunately ... What do you think? last year I found myself well with this pct (blood tests have been clear). The next cycle will begin using hcg During

ditch the letro, its overkill, aromasin will suffice during your hcg blast, you can always run nolvadex alongside if gyno is an issue as there is no interaction between the two

It's clomid you want to wait until 3 days after your last shot of hcg

In terms of your clomid and nolvadex dosing I prefer what I put in the original post but it's your choice, if nothing else I'd say atleast double up your clomid for the first two weeks

 

[Muscles3]

Knowledgeable topic mate

 

[swole troll]

Here's a thread i started on lowering cortisol during PCT

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/254724-albuterol-combined-with-l-dopa-for-anabolism/?do=embed
hackskii provided some good info and a list of supplements that can be used during PCT to lower cortisol

 

[b0t13]

interesting point about the running an AI during PCT,

from what i understand you run an AI during cycle to control the high estro, but when youve no test left in the body during PCT wont the AI just kill it completely?

 

[swole troll]

interesting point about the running an AI during PCT,

from what i understand you run an AI during cycle to control the high estro, but when youve no test left in the body during PCT wont the AI just kill it completely?

exemestane increases free testosterone by preventing test aromtasing and converting to oestrogen, an increase in test is always welcome during PCT even if only for the duration of the time you're on that drug provided it isnt suppressive and or will hinder recovery

exemestane also raises IGF which may help to negate the effects of tamoxifen lowering IGF levels

there is also the benefit of controlling oestrogen during PCT which can not only help with mental instability and depression but also aids in recovery as oestrogen is far more suppressive than testosterone

from my own experience utilizing exemestane during PCT made for a much more controlled recovery as my e2 levels werent all over the place, i believe clomid gets more bad rap than it deserves as i feel a bigger part of the 'clomid blues' is actually down to low androgens and elevated oestrogen

there are also others that i've advised to use aromasin during their PCT who report a much more stable mindset than when they'd ran a more conventional PCT with just SERM's

most people dont know where their oestrogen levels are post cycle and can run into post cycle gyno as they have a build up of oestrogen circulating with nothing to control it and then as soon as the nolvadex is ceased, wears off and stops protecting the breast site there is a build up of oestrogen waiting at the gates

there is several reasons for post cycle gyno for example a spike in testosterone from the SERM's, test levels in a poor ratio to oestrogen (low test to oest) or simply just elevated oestrogen from a poorly timed cycle finish and PCT start leaving you with jacked up test thats aromatasing and not enough time for levels to subside before you remove the protection (tamoxifen) which again will also result in a poor recovery given how suppressive oestrogen is

ALL of these issues can be addressed with the correct amount of AI use during PCT, ideally aromasin as it has no negative effect on lipids, it's a suicide inhibitor which also prevents unwanted rebound and it has no interaction with nolvadex

im actually currently in PCT myself and this PCT ill be experimenting with tapering off the aromasin as the last recovery med as opposed to nolvadex which is usually the case

so ill be ending each compound in this order: clomiphene > nolvadex > aromasin

"Type-I Aromatase Inhibitor

Aromasin (Exemestane) is a Type-I aromatase inhibitor, or suicidal aromatase inhibitor. It's called this because it lowers estrogen production in the body by attaching to the aromatase enzyme, and permanently deactivating it. It averages 90% rate of estrogen suppression, which equals a reduction in estradiol levels of about 50%, as well as significantly raising testosterone .(up to 60%)

Aromasin not only increases testosterone and lowers estrogen, but it also increases levels of insulin -like growth Factor (IGF). And Aromasin is not too harsh on lipid panel (cholesterol), unlike some of the other AIs' like Letrozole .(Femara) Aromasin reaches steady blood plasma levels of after a week of administration, and this is also when we see it begin its maximal effect on reducing circulating estrogen levels. It has a terminal half life of 9 hours in MEN, so taking it once per day will build up blood plasma levels to a very effective level.

Also, there have been some additional researches related to Aromasin in men in pharmacokinetics. The results of the research are the following:

24 hours after one 25mg dose, estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%;

72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below the baseline;

120 hours after initial dose, estrogen levels return to baseline."

little more background on Exemestane / Aromasin - http://www.evolutionary.org/aromasin-exemestane

Remember we want to CONTROL oestrogen levels during PCT, NOT flatten them which has a whole host of its own problems, my advice on AI dosing is a guideline that i believe will be effective for the majority of people however if they've successfully gotten through a whole cycle controlling E2 i'm pretty confident that they have a good idea of what kind of dosing they'll require.

AI dosing is very individual and cannot be given a cookie cutter template that's set in stone so feel free to adjust AI dosing to your specific needs and if you do go with my layout then listen to your body and refer to the 'estrogen handbook' i linked on the first page to assess where your E2 is at should any unwanted sides occur or ideally get blood work to know for sure - https://www.medichecks.com/find-a-test/test/Oestradiol-(blood)_OEST/ and adjust AI as necessary

 

[STW31988]

Hi Swole Troll,

Your advice here has been great thank you! I am about to start my first injectable cycle (only done oral tbol so far). Almost everything is in place for a 12 weeks 500mg per week cycle but my PCT meds; Clomid, Nolvadex are both Noble Labs and my Arimidex is Zydex rather than Pharma grade. Do you think I should bin these and re-order Pharma grade and replace the Arimidex with Aromasin or will I be okay as its test only and my first cycle?

Thanks for your advice!

Sam

 

[swole troll]

Hi Swole Troll,

Your advice here has been great thank you! I am about to start my first injectable cycle (only done oral tbol so far). Almost everything is in place for a 12 weeks 500mg per week cycle but my PCT meds; Clomid, Nolvadex are both Noble Labs and my Arimidex is Zydex rather than Pharma grade. Do you think I should bin these and re-order Pharma grade and replace the Arimidex with Aromasin or will I be okay as its test only and my first cycle?

Thanks for your advice!

Sam

it's your choice but personally I don't use anything but pharmaceutical where SERM's and AI's are concerned

You could order in some pharma but use the zydex with the pharma on hand incase your ugl is under dosed or bunk (very unlikely with arimidex)

EDIT - just read your SERM's are ugl as well, I would advise you buy pharmaceutical and keep the noble nolva for use on any cycle that an ai isn't addressing your gyno

It may all be accurately dosed but maybe not, it's a gamble that could hinder your recovery

 

[STW31988]

Thank you for your help.

I will order some pharma grade PCT and get that ready before I start my cycle. Out of interest is Pharma grade tamoxifen the same dosage as ugl Nolvadex? So i can take 40/40/20/20 or will I need to decrease or increase my tamoxifen?

 

[GymClassHero]

In bold is the crucial information although i advise reading entire post

This has been done and stickied before by far more knowledgeable posters than I but even so i get asked on a near enough daily basis by those planning their first cycle or more worryingly those who have already started their first cycle "what should i do for pct?" or "does this PCT look ok?"

so without further ado i'll try to keep things short n sweet

the cycle itself is what's shutting you down so where better to start than to do our best to minimize suppresion

HCG 500iu pinned on mondays and thursday (1000iu per week total) from your first shot of gear until a week prior to starting clomid

video on preparing your hcg which must be stored in the fridge once mixed:

oestrogen is far more suppresive than testosterone yet many will preach to only use an aromatase inhibitor if you start getting itchy nipples (signs of gyno) this is a ridiculous indicator of when to use an AI imo as high oestrogen doesnt always present in the form of gyno and if allowed to run rampant will definitely make recovery that much harder not to mention all the other health risks associated with elevated oestrogen

you should use an AI from day one of your cycle, preferably aromasin as it has little effects on lipids unlike arimidex and letrozole plus it's a suicide inhibitor so there is much less risk of rebound

I advise people to run 12.5mg aromasin ED from the start of their cycle and adjust from there, the chances of driving oestrogen too low whilst on 5 times the normal amount of test that a male produces is relatively slim as the body likes to maintain homoeostasis between oestrogen and testosterone, test rises = oestrogen rises

here's a good guide for how to gauge where abouts your oestrogen is - http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums/steroid-articles/59096-estrogen-handbook
ideally we'd all be getting bloods done but if you've overlooked PCT then id be surprised if blood tests were high on your list of priorities

here is a rough guide of the start times for PCT after your final shot:

"Below you'll find starting times for your PCT based on the active life of each compound. The active life is the duration of time it takes for the exogenous hormone to be absorbed, utilized, and expelled; no longer being bioavailable. Keep in mind that active life is an approximation which is dependant on dose, ester, as well as the individuals metabolization of the compound ; but for the moderate user, these are as close to precise as you'll find.

Anadrol /Anapolan: 24 hours after last administration
Deca : 21 days after last injection
Dianabol : 24 hours after last administration
Equipoise : 21 days after last injection
Fina: 3 days after last injection
Primobolan depot: 14 days after last injection
Sustanon : 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Cypionate : 18 days after last injection
Testosterone Enanthate : 14 days after last injection
Testosterone Propionate : 3 days after last injection
Testosterone Suspension : 24 hours after last administration
Winstrol : 24 hours after last administration"

the above chart has loose estimates at best as it doesn't take into consideration how long you've been on or what dosages you've used but assuming you've ran test enth at 500mg every week for 12-15 weeks id advise leaving 21 days after your final shot before starting PCT

during this time you continue to run your HCG at 500iu twice per week until the last 7 days prior to starting PCT when you cease HCG usage

you then run

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50 5 weeks total

Nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20/20 7 weeks total

Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5/ followed by 12.5 EOD 5 weeks total

/100/ represents 100mg ED for a week

OTC supplements that assist in PCT -

Vitamin d3 5000iu
Vitamin c 500mg twice a day AM/PM (1000mg total)

mix up 50 grams of BCAA powder in a litre bottle of water and drink throughout the day in between meals, do this every day for the duration of your pct and also sip a BCAA drink during training

and if you havnt already been using it on cycle now would be a good time to start using creatine

during pct your body will happily dispose of all that hard earned muscle if you don't make the environment perfect for it to justify holding onto it, do this by keeping intensity high but sessions slightly shorter, train no more than 4 days per week ideally 3 with a days rest in between each session, drop cardio for the duration of pct, eat in a very slight surplus, keep your protein high and get plenty of sleep (ideally sleep without setting an alarm and wake up naturally)

Dave Crosland's take on PCT -

Dr Michael Scally radio talk - http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/blue-collar-muscle/10119-blue-collar-radio-with-shelby-starnes-john-meadows-01-31-14-this-week-john-and-shelby-talk-to-michael-scally-an-expert-on-anabolic-steroid-side-effects.html

I''m really confused now mate, would you mind clearing a few things up?

In the power PCT it says to begin HCG blast (2500iu eod for 8 days) and AT THE SAME TIMES begin administration of both clomid and nolva for 30 and 45 days respectively. Can you confirm that you're essentially saying to wait the clearance time (e.g. 2 weeks for test e) then blast HCG, then once this is finished begin SERM therapy?

 

[swole troll]

I''m really confused now mate, would you mind clearing a few things up?

In the power PCT it says to begin HCG blast (2500iu eod for 8 days) and AT THE SAME TIMES begin administration of both clomid and nolva for 30 and 45 days respectively. Can you confirm that you're essentially saying to wait the clearance time (e.g. 2 weeks for test e) then blast HCG, then once this is finished begin SERM therapy?

The best route imo is to utilise hcg throughout your cycle, prevention is better than cure

However if going the hcg blast route then yes you should wait 3 days post hcg before starting clomiphene

If you read through this thread I believe I addressed the reasons why you shouldn't use clomiphene alongside hcg

If I haven't then ill post up this evening, I'm on my phone at the moment so typing and study / thread linking is a ballache

EDIT -

See all my posts on this thread for a better understanding as to why i advocate HCG to be ran separate to clomiphene - http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/257198-hcg-on-cycleend-of-cycle

See 5th post down - http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/254124-first-test-e-cycle-need-reassurance/?page=3

 

[swole troll]

just thought id throw in a few tips for those who follow this thread and or utilize the methods i've outlined within it

im currently running PCT myself after a 13 week test, tren and anavar cycle

tren being a 19nor is very suppressive to the HPTA but even so running the protocol i've outlined ive been feeling pretty good all things considering, libido is a little bit shoddy and ive lost some fullness but thats to be expected as recovery is just that, no matter how effective your PCT you are still recovering a shut down HPTA

the added extras to my current PCT i want to highlight is the use of Ipamorelin and Mod GRF 1-29 both at 100mcg pinned three times per day (AM, PW, PM)
i've also been running 5g of glutamine and 500mg of NAC ED for cortisol control
and ECA once per day in the AM for its anti catabolic effects and increase in metabolism meaning i can eat more overall food whilst still maintaining my weight, it's also a very effective pre workout

the result has been ive stayed fuller and leaner than previous PCT's, improved sleep and recovery and kept the majority of my strength

i've of course still lost that "on" look but the peptides have helped to retain some of the fullness

i will personally be using them alongside every future PCT

I've also been using 15g of Fearns soy lecithin granules for its phosphatidic acid content... jury's still out on this one

the studies look promising but its hard to attribute my strength retention to either the peptides or phosphatidic acid of the soy granules or the combination of both

phosphatidic acid has been cottoned on to by the supplement industry who charge 5x times the amount that a tub of fearns soy lecithin granules costs for the same effectiveness so if you want to try it out for yourself be sure to get the "Fearn's Soy Lecithin Granules" - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fearn-Natural-Foods-Lecithin-Granules/dp/B00014FCRQ

J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012 Oct 5;9(1):47. doi: 10.1186/1550-2783-9-47.

Efficacy of phosphatidic acid ingestion on lean body mass, muscle thickness and strength gains in resistance-trained men.

Hoffman JR1, Stout JR, Williams DR, Wells AJ, Fragala MS, Mangine GT, Gonzalez AM, Emerson NS, McCormack WP, Scanlon TC, Purpura M, Jäger R.

Author information

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Phosphatidic acid (PA) has been reported to activate the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) signaling pathway and is thought to enhance the anabolic effects of resistance training. The purpose of this pilot study was to examine if oral phosphatidic acid administration can enhance strength, muscle thickness and lean tissue accruement during an 8-week resistance training program.

METHODS:

Sixteen resistance-trained men were randomly assigned to a group that either consumed 750 mg of PA (n = 7, 23.1 ± 4.4 y; 176.7 ± 6.7 cm; 86.5 ± 21.2 kg) or a placebo (PL, n = 9, 22.5 ± 2.0 y; 179.8 ± 5.4 cm; 89.4 ± 13.6 kg) group. During each testing session subjects were assessed for strength (one repetition maximum [1-RM] bench press and squat) and body composition. Muscle thickness and pennation angle were also measured in the vastus lateralis of the subject's dominant leg.

RESULTS:

Subjects ingesting PA demonstrated a 12.7% increase in squat strength and a 2.6% increase in LBM, while subjects consuming PL showed a 9.3% improvement in squat strength and a 0.1% change in LBM. Although parametric analysis was unable to demonstrate significant differences, magnitude based inferences indicated that the Δ change in 1-RM squat showed a likely benefit from PA on increasing lower body strength and a very likely benefit for increasing lean body mass (LBM).

CONCLUSIONS:

Results of this study suggest that a combination of a daily 750 mg PA ingestion, combined with a 4-day per week resistance training program for 8-weeks appears to have a likely benefit on strength improvement, and a very likely benefit on lean tissue accruement in young, resistance trained individuals.

PMID:

23035701

[PubMed]

PMCID:

PMC3506449

Free PMC Article

 

[swole troll]

another piece of advice for your guys running your first cycle (this thread is becoming more of a 'my first cycle' than it is just a recovery thread)

is oestrogen control

i've linked "the estrogen handbook" in the OP which is great to refer to in order to assess where your E2 levels are but even so i still seem to be getting messages both on the boards and via private message on what dosing is required for their first cycle or first time using x compound at x doses

and the answer is... only you can find that out, if youre unwilling to get bloods then like a blind man at an orgy you're going to have to feel your way out

'the estrogen handbook' does a good job of assisting you in that assessment but the required dosing is so individual that if someone was to give a "this is the correct dosing" response they'd get a mixed bag of reactions from guys who require the same amount or more and from guys that said dosing would obliterate their E2

i personally think a good starting point is half the therapeutic dose ED or EOD

body fat plays a role in which frequency you opt for, those who are over 15-20% should probably consider ED dosing as theyre likely to have more aromtase activity within the excess adipose tissue

Therapeutic doses of AI's:

Anastrazole / Arimidex - 1mg
Exemestane / Aromasin - 25mg
Femara / Letrozole - 2.5mg

you can also utilize a combination of AI and Tamoxifen for those that are highly prone to gyno but would rather not juggle the dosing of letrozole,
there is no interaction between tamoxifen and aromasin however in arimidex there is a 28% reduction in potency equating 1mg to 0.72mg, i believe it has a similar impact on aromatase inhibition with letrozole also

there is a counter argument to the combination of both compounds however from personal experience and anecdotal evidence from others i've certainly found that a combination of tamoxifen and aromasin offers a greater level of protection agains gyno than just aromasin as a standalone, here is an old post on here regarding this matter:

"Nolvadex is proven to REDUCE IGF-1 which hinders your gains:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809

where as Arimidex SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES IGF-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488

and you will also find that arimidex alone, is just as effective as Tamoxifen combined with arimidex, and more effective than tamoxifen alone:

"...anastrozole continues to show superior efficacy, which is most apparent in the clinically relevant hormone receptor-positive population. Furthermore,anastrozole has numerous noteworthy advantages in terms of tolerability compared with tamoxifen."

from:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14584060

and:

"...Combination treatment" (of tamoxifen and anastrozole) "...was equivalent to tamoxifen in terms of both efficacy and tolerability. Anastrozole showed superior efficacy to tamoxifen for DFS, TTR and contralateral breast cancer...

from:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14623537"

I would suggest for gyno prevention, and reduction, 1mg ED is the best choice, and superior to adding nolva to armidex, or just changing to nolva as noted above."

end quote - ausbuilt

here is a reply i posted in another thread with regards to the difference in aromatase inhibition in men:

"in the studies done on women with breast cancer at full therapeutic does theyre all fairly similar in aromatase inhibiting properties

however in men this suppression isnt quite so profound but the strength of each compound remains in the same order in terms of aromatase inhibition so in theory your friend at the gym is right however the amount of difference between the two compounds at therapeutic dose is negligible

the reason id opt for aromasin over arimidex is because A ) it has no effect on lipids which will already be compromised by being on AAS and B ) it is a suicide inhibitor so massively reduces the risk of oestrogen rebound

PMC full text:

Int J Clin Pract. 2007 Dec; 61(12): 2051-2063. doi: 10.1111/j.1742-1241.2007.01587.x Copyright/License ►Request permission to reuse

Table 1

Efficacy of aromatase suppression by three generations of AIs

Drug	Dose	% Inhibition
First generation
Aminoglutethimide (1,3)	1 g	91
Second generation
Fadrozole (100)	2 mg	82
Vorozole (5)	1 mg	93
Third generation
Letrozole (100,101)	2.5 mg	99
Anastrozole (100,102)	1 mg	97
Exemestane (100,103,104)	25 mg	98

AIs, aromatase in

source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/

"Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77%"

NOTE - they say "third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estrdiol/testosterone ration by 77%" they didnt specify which AI as theyre all of such similar strengths of aromatase inhibition and makes little overall difference to plasma estrodiol levels

source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/

Oestrogen control is the most individual need of a male using AAS, we can safely assume that 500mg of testosterone for a newer steroid user is ample however the percentage at which that testosterone aromatases we cannot predict

i for example need to take 1mg of anastrazole ED for anything over 500mg of testosterone, some guys this would completely crush their E2 but others require even more AI or sometimes the inclusion of a SERM

you basically need to trial and error your dosages ideally with blood work but its fairly easy to 'feel out' your required dose if you know the signs of both high and low oestrogen

this guide is pretty accurate for sussing out where your levels are at if youre not willing to pay for bloods - http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums/steroid-articles/59096-estrogen-handbook"

 

[meekdown]

That's probably the best post I've ever read on here and a wealth of information. I've never in all the years of running AAS needed a AI, never got bloat etc and always felt great, the last few month of this last cycle have been awful and one of the main reasons I decided to get off and stay off. Had a crazy amount of water retention in my face, hands and outer forearms . To the point my hands were almost useless at some points in the day and almost twice the size. Eyes so puffy and water glazed I looked shocking. Strangely I looked bone dry everywhere else, I carry little body fat and had striated shoulders etc just my face etc looked shocking. Started using armidex at 1mg eod which didn't dent it so using 1mg a day has got it under control. Going to keep running dex at 1mg until the end of the hcg blast then slowly reduce to eod until I feel clear and clean

also going to introduce my igf cycle while using 2iu of ansomone ed with 10iu of slin post workout. Fingers crossed

great posing again mate you have been a massive help putting my mind at ease and helped more than I could say with explaining the whole process in easy terms with no clever comments like some. Cheers

 

[swole troll]

right so i've seen this crop up a few times lately: "how do i keep up my libido during PCT?"

the short answer is it is very likely going to suffer regardless of what you do, thats just one of the side effects of low androgens and in some cases also raised oestrogen

however what i dont like to see is all these young men in their 20's - 30's relying on sildenafil and taladafil in order to maintain sexual function

there is evidence to suggest that overuse and misuse of these drugs can result in a dependency arguably only a psychological one but none the less could still be difficult to shake off as sexual anxiety can become an issue for those concerned with whether or not they will be able to achieve or maintain an erection

it becomes a vicious cycle in that you have low androgens therefore convince yourself you need ED drugs in order to get an erection then you become reliant on these drugs and when you come off and have any kind of difficulty to achieve one you always have that thought in your head that you 'NEED' erectile dysfunction meds in order to become erect, this creates sexual anxiety which too leads to erectile dysfunction (vicious circle)

the first thing to do is accept that just like your sex drive was supercharged during your cycle you now have a lagging sex drive as you come off..... that which goes up must come down

the good news is as you regain testicular function and slowly recover your HPTA your sex drive should also improve

during this time you can try certain OTC supplements like tribulus, horny goat weed and various other herbal supplements although im not entirely sold on their effectiveness

in terms of meds you can run cabergoline during PCT as this does in some cases increase libido however this drug also has a whole host of possible side effects and you run the risk of suppressing prolactin too low

all in all id say you are best off just weathering the storm, PCT is an uncomfortable time but its the price you pay for the gains you make unless you are willing to potentially rely on testosterone for the rest of your life and go onto TRT, but given this is a PCT thread we wont get into a p1ssing contest between the two routes of steroid use

Dependency on Cialis

As with the other two main types of erectile dysfunction drugs there is a chance that Cialis could become mentally addictive as you begin to rely on its results to have a healthy sex life. However Cialis is not physically addictive and it is extremely rare to become reliant on this drug.

Psychological addiction

The psychological addiction or dependency could start due to you having being depressed or stressed about the erectile dysfunction that you have been suffering from before using the drug and you then become worried that the effects will not last if you stop taking the Cialis. Here are some simple ways to try and help beat the psychological dependency that you feel you may have with Cialis;

• You have to make a personal decision to decide that you want to stop
• Talk to someone that you trust about the dependency
• Find a local support group which can offer you some extra help and guidance about your dependency
• Identify why you are taking the drug and when. This will allow you to see if there is a pattern in your dependency
• Focus on a good thing in your life to concentrate on rather than Cialis

If you think that you or your partner has established a dependency on Cialis then it is advised that you go back to your GP to speak to them about the problems that have occurred and even seek therapy or counselling over your relationship to the drug. Your GP may also be able to help by slowly reducing your Cialis dosage or the amount of times that you have to take it to get a satisfactory result.

Viagra Addiction

Erectile Dysfunction Medication

Viagra or Sildenafil, is one of the most well known and widely used drugs worldwide. It is a prescription medication that is used to treat erectile dysfunction in men and estimates suggest that more than 20 million men worldwide have used the drug. The drug works by temporarily increasing the blood flow to the penis which causes a man to achieve an erection and maintain an erection beyond normal levels. It does not improve a mans ability to perform sexually but it does reduce performance anxiety and increase a man's confidence in his sexuality.

Recreational or non-medical use of the drug can result in sexual dysfunction. Although manufacturers believe that the drug does not have addictive properties, it is possible for men to become dependent on the use of it to achieve and maintain an erection for long periods. Some men report problems with achieving regular erections or being able to be aroused without the drug and of being obsessed with taking the drug when having sexual contact with others. Others reported painful and long-lasting erections that are the result of taking too much Viagra too often.

Risks and Contradictions

Although a safe drug when taken as prescribed, Viagra is known to contribute to a number of negative health problems. Common side effects are usually minor and include headaches, facial flushing, blocked nose and blurred or altered vision. The drug works by dilating the blood vessels and can increase clotting in the body. This may put those at risk of heart attacks or strokes in a higher risk category of having an adverse reaction.

Viagra is known to cause some serious problems when taken in conjunction with particular heart medications and should only be taken by individuals as directed by a doctor. It should never be combined with nitrate medications such as those that are prescribed to treat chest pain, angina or other heart problems or when using poppers also called amyl nitrate.

Dependency on Viagra

For those who are prescribed Viagra by a medical professional, dependency issues can be monitored and minimized but as there is an increasing amount of Viagra available illegally, these issues are increasing. Using Viagra can lead a person to develop a dependence on the drug to perform sexually. The drug can alleviate some problems with anxiety that is related to sexual performance but it should be used with care. Becoming dependent on the drug can cause someone to experience sexual dysfunction when they do not have the drug because the person may believe that they are unable to have sex without it. Additionally, because the drug causes a man to have an erection even with minimal stimulation, he may have sex without being fully aroused which will cause problems in the future.

Young Men Abusing Viagra

Some studies suggest that there is an increasing culture of young men using Viagra who see the drug as an opportunity to increase penis size, enhance sexual performance and boost libido. Viagra does not do any of these things. Viagra works on increasing blood flow to the penis only and does not increase a persons sexual responses or ability to perform in the bedroom. Many young people combine Viagra with other drugs such as alcohol, cocaine or MDMA which are known to cause erectile problems. By taking Viagra in this way, a young man is placing himself at risk of adverse reactions and causing more serious health problems.

Young men typically are in a high risk group for being involved in risky sexual activities such as multiple partners, unprotected sex and are also at risk of contracting sexually transmitted infections. Some critics of Viagra believe that young men who are taking the drug are more likely to have recreational sex with partners without protection. This is particularly the case in some gay communities and with those who take the drug in combination with illicit substances. Having unprotected sex places a person at risk of contacting potentially fatal diseases such as HIV, Hepatitis or from contracting and spreading infections such as chlamydia, genital herpes or syphilis. Untreated these infections can lead to very serious health problems which include sterility issues.

Black Market Drug

Viagra is one of the most popular black market drugs all over the world with men having access to the drug online or through a dealer. In some cases, the drug that is being sold in this way is not Viagra and instead a mixture of other drugs or even a placebo drug colored and shaped to look like the distinctive diamond shaped pill. Many men take the drug without being consulted by a doctor and may be placing themselves at risk of having an adverse reaction, especially if they are combining it with other substances. Additionally, a man could spend a considerable amount of money on illegal Viagra only to find out the drug does not work or is a fake. Any man who is seeking help for erectile dysfunction should consult with a medical professional rather than putting themselves at risk.

 

[Jimbo2015]

Best explanation of pct I think I've ever read!!! Very impressed swole!!

 

[AlondonU]

Just like to add i took onboard all of swoles advice after doing no pct during my first cycle. HCG blast after test out of system then clomid/nolva. No loss of sex drive at all. Lost a little weight 3kg over 4 weeks after last pin (not visually). 3 months now since i last pinned test and ive put that 3kg back on and am leaner than i have been previously. I have been on HGH throughout which has probably helped.

Looking forward to next cycle and will be following the 1000IU a week during advice.

As far as AI's i didn't use one last time. I definitely felt i was in the sweet spot. Nipples only got slightly sensitive in the last week on the test but no other estrogenic side. I will probably up the dose slightly this time of the test so may run 12.5 aromisin (if i can find someone that has this. Aromidex seems to be all anyone has) and start from there since im still taking the HGH.

So in short thanks for knowing you stuff dude.

 

[swole troll]

Glad to hear it helped you buddy

I'd definitely consider running some aromasin and if not get bloods done to see where your e2 is

Excess oestrogen Is far more suppresive than testosterone, allowing it to run rampant during a cycle could hinder recovery

Remember not all guys get gyno when their e2 is out of range

 

[AlondonU]

I've been running 12.5 (ish. Splitting the small tablets isn't the simplest task). EOD. Very hard to tell whether I'm in the sweet spot.

Ive also been taking the HCG twice a week. Balls have definitely shrunk a little. Is that expected even with the HCG on cycle? Or is the HCG I'm using no good you reckon.

 

[swole troll]

I've been running 12.5 (ish. Splitting the small tablets isn't the simplest task). EOD. Very hard to tell whether I'm in the sweet spot.

Ive also been taking the HCG twice a week. Balls have definitely shrunk a little. Is that expected even with the HCG on cycle? Or is the HCG I'm using no good you reckon.

you can either get a blood test to see where your levels are at or you can refer to the oestrogen guide i linked in the OP to establish if you are within range or not

erectile dysfunction , excessive acne, sensitive and or puffy nipples ect.. are all possible signs of high oestrogen

sore joints, no libido, lethargy and depression are all possible signs of low oestrogen

but again refer to the guide i linked in the OP or better yet get bloods to establish E2 levels

you shouldnt be getting any severe testicular atrophy if you are running 500iu of HCG twice weekly (i tend to get some atrophy when running nandrolone even with HCG)

are you running any 19nor's?
is the HCG pharma?
are you keeping it in the fridge?