hacks quality stuff once again

i aws jus about to pm you to find out when you were posting it

also glad to hear that desensitization will not happen on this protocol until about two months

so getting boxes of hcg in 5000 ius sounds good after all

 

Nice post dude

So is he saying to run test for 12 weeks and then start the 45 day protocol the next day or what?

 

Nice post dude

So is he saying to run test for 12 weeks and then start the 45 day protocol the next day or what?

That I forgot to ask.

But if you do the math, 8 shots EOD is 15 days.

Then run the clomid and nolva as recommended.

So, yah I bet that might just work like that.

The HCG alone will cause some supression, but there will be androgens in there.

Right now, my strength is up, feel good, getting wood, feel pretty damn good.

But I am dieting right now too.

The guy that did the protocol and wrote a thesis or book or something based all the information off of the Doc and suffered zero supression.

He even calculated fat loss, lean muscle gain, strength the whole deal.

He said he will ask the guy to see if he could send me the E-book.

I think I will get it.

The doc totally digs me.

He is a new doc on another board and he is getting beat up.

I defended him and he said he will answer ANY question of I stay as an alliance and kindof defend him.

This board he is on is too much, hard ego's, 3 diffrent docs, many old men on TRT, all know it all's.

BS really.

All he is asking for is sort of a friend and someone to look up to him.

Hey, that is easy

 

Hacks - brought some ZMA caps the other day. Does this guy not rate the supp at all or its just ineffective when running this recovery course ??

 

The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.

So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.

that makes no sense to me as clomid has similar properties to nolvadex, i.e. it's also blocks oestrogen receptors although weaker than nolvadex. But 2 pills of clomid ED should be doing a fairly good job at blocking them.

Only took a quick read at that mate will read it better later, but that's the first thing that popped out when reading it.

 

2500iu EOD sounds far to much HCG to me.

 

be interesting to she what else Hackskii can get from him.

 

Hacks - brought some ZMA caps the other day. Does this guy not rate the supp at all or its just ineffective when running this recovery course ??

He said it would do nothing to aid in recovery. But he said if it made me feel better about it then go ahead and do it

 

that makes no sense to me as clomid has similar properties to nolvadex, i.e. it's also blocks oestrogen receptors although weaker than nolvadex. But 2 pills of clomid ED should be doing a fairly good job at blocking them.

Only took a quick read at that mate will read it better later, but that's the first thing that popped out when reading it.

Clomiphene is classified as a selective-estrogen receptor-modulator (SERM).

Tamoxifen is classified as an estrogen receptor blocker.

Clomiphene blocks the normal negative feedback of circulating estradiol on the hypothalamus.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

I think this is why he uses them together.

Whole article below written by the Doc.

The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, ( B) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, © the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patiemts I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamozifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

I hope this is of some assistance.

Peace.

Mike

If you look at the last paragraph it pretty much tells you why as well.

 

2500iu EOD sounds far to much HCG to me.

The doc assured me this is not the case. He goes against Swale on this one big time.

He used 1000iu of HCG twice a week for his guys on TRT. Then he stops after 8 weeks for 4 weeks to rid the desentization issue.

Even then desentization is temporary too.

He did say that on an occasion or two he even used more HCG to treat the hypogonadism then tapered the dose back down.

He has treated thousands on the above protocol with no problems.

From my perspective 500iu a day after 16 days did less than just one shot of 2500iu.

If we do the math that would be 8000iu compared to just 2500iu and the 2500 did more than all the 16 days.

He was very confidant that I will not have problems.

This dude is probably the top guy in the States or on the world on his recovery protocol for AAS induced HPTA shutdown.

His whole deal was getting the testicles back in order, outside of that recovery was pointless.

He alluded to the pituitary and hypothalamus as no problem getting it to fire, the testicles is his concern.

2500, my balls are getting massive and I have only had 2 shots, 3rd one will be tonight. Getting good workouts, stronger in the gym, greasy face, morning wood, sex drive comming back, etc.

I am pumped about this and feel the doc is right on the money.

Too little HCG wont do the job and it just keeps you shutdown longer anyway.

He said it could take 6-18 months to recover with just cessation of AAS alone, 45 days recovery of the HPTA with his protocol.

He did say that out of thousands of guys only a few didnt recover.

He attributed that to possibly they had low levels prior to AAS use.

I am trying so hard to get this dude to this board.

 

The doc assured me this is not the case. He goes against Swale on this one big time.

He used 1000iu of HCG twice a week for his guys on TRT. Then he stops after 8 weeks for 4 weeks to rid the desentization issue.

Even then desentization is temporary too.

He did say that on an occasion or two he even used more HCG to treat the hypogonadism then tapered the dose back down.

He has treated thousands on the above protocol with no problems.

From my perspective 500iu a day after 16 days did less than just one shot of 2500iu.

If we do the math that would be 8000iu compared to just 2500iu and the 2500 did more than all the 16 days.

He was very confidant that I will not have problems.

This dude is probably the top guy in the States or on the world on his recovery protocol for AAS induced HPTA shutdown.

His whole deal was getting the testicles back in order, outside of that recovery was pointless.

He alluded to the pituitary and hypothalamus as no problem getting it to fire, the testicles is his concern.

I'm new to this board .I found this article and have a question regarding HPTA Shutdown.What is the best way to start your system back up while still on 50 mg Test Prop and 100 mg Primo ed.Is there a protocol for HCG ,nolva and clomid? Do you need to be off for this to work.I assume yes but was wondering.

2500, my balls are getting massive and I have only had 2 shots, 3rd one will be tonight. Getting good workouts, stronger in the gym, greasy face, morning wood, sex drive comming back, etc.

I am pumped about this and feel the doc is right on the money.

Too little HCG wont do the job and it just keeps you shutdown longer anyway.

He said it could take 6-18 months to recover with just cessation of AAS alone, 45 days recovery of the HPTA with his protocol.

He did say that out of thousands of guys only a few didnt recover.

He attributed that to possibly they had low levels prior to AAS use.

I am trying so hard to get this dude to this board.

 

for long cycles... eg. comp prep - this sounds like a good protocol for that for sure...

i think i'll stick to swale's protocol with my 5/6 week cycles - but...

i'm def bookmarking this for long cycles in the future

 

This is what the doc wrote for the reason why clomid and nolvadex are to be taken together:

Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for 2 reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to 'push' the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)

Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

 

very informative thread..

 

Hackskii

I am a new member to UK muscle. I have read most of your posts on HPTA jumpstart etc. I am pretty much shut down right now. I don't want to go into detail but its the typcial too long on plus i am 41 and i did not use sufficient PCT as outlined per your doctor. I like the posts. I am going to do your doctors protocol but had some questions:

do you take the nolv/clomid at the same time as the HCG or do you start the SERMS after the HCG?

Is the below at the same time?

15 days HCG

30 days clom

45 days nolva

or

15 days HCG

THEN

15 days clom AND 30 days nolva at the same time?

I was wondering what you thought of Tribestan. supposed to stimulate LH.

I am shut down from AAS pretty clear right now and want to get back to normal asap.

 

So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott

 

So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott

good question,.. this is exactly what i was thinking... do you stiil do this and then follow he's protocol

 

I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.

For those of you who don't know what that is it is "Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis"

After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.

This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.

First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.

He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.

With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don't fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.

So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.

He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.

The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can't remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.

So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.

He did mention that sometimes the balls just don't take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.

He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.

Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.

ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.

Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)

Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.

One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.

Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.

He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.

He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.

He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.

He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.

There it is

Trackskii, can you respond to my post two posts back?

Thank you

 

Oops I meant Hackskii

 

Hackskii

I am a new member to UK muscle. I have read most of your posts on HPTA jumpstart etc. I am pretty much shut down right now. I don't want to go into detail but its the typcial too long on plus i am 41 and i did not use sufficient PCT as outlined per your doctor. I like the posts. I am going to do your doctors protocol but had some questions:

do you take the nolv/clomid at the same time as the HCG or do you start the SERMS after the HCG?

Is the below at the same time?

15 days HCG

30 days clom

45 days nolva

or

15 days HCG

THEN

15 days clom AND 30 days nolva at the same time?

I was wondering what you thought of Tribestan. supposed to stimulate LH.

I am shut down from AAS pretty clear right now and want to get back to normal asap.

Start them all the same day, I would do the clomid and nolva in the morning, then clomid in the afternoon (both 50mg), then before bed, do the HCG.

If that keeps you awake then shoot in the morning, I cant shoot at night but I found this works the best.

Tribestin is poo poo, I waisted much money on that and the only thing I got from it is loss of money.

Save your money.

If you want supps, then take 1000iu vitamin E every day, take ZMA at night before bed empty stomach, this will help you sleep if the HCG is affecting things.

Melatonin is a great addition to aid in sleep too, and possible GH release when sleeping.

Cant tell you if it would aid in recovery, but it is suspect HGH is helpful.

Plus at 41 your melatonin levels will be compromised some anyway.

Just make sure that when you start your PCT that you have not been on for a while and make sure the stuff is cleared.

If you like you can give me a PM and tell me how much and how long you were on.

You should be fine, dont worry, stress wont help you here, you will be fine.

So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott

You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.

You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.

I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.

So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.

That recovery went super easy, best one yet.

 

Start them all the same day, I would do the clomid and nolva in the morning, then clomid in the afternoon (both 50mg), then before bed, do the HCG.

If that keeps you awake then shoot in the morning, I cant shoot at night but I found this works the best.

Tribestin is poo poo, I waisted much money on that and the only thing I got from it is loss of money.

Save your money.

If you want supps, then take 1000iu vitamin E every day, take ZMA at night before bed empty stomach, this will help you sleep if the HCG is affecting things.

Melatonin is a great addition to aid in sleep too, and possible GH release when sleeping.

Cant tell you if it would aid in recovery, but it is suspect HGH is helpful.

Plus at 41 your melatonin levels will be compromised some anyway.

Just make sure that when you start your PCT that you have not been on for a while and make sure the stuff is cleared.

If you like you can give me a PM and tell me how much and how long you were on.

You should be fine, dont worry, stress wont help you here, you will be fine.

You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.

You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.

I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.

So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.

That recovery went super easy, best one yet.

Am I right in saying clomid is useless when taken before atleast 15 days after last pin and it's evident hcg is better taken at the latter stages of a cycle to ready the body for pct (clomid/nolva) so is it ok to start hcg say 3 days after last pin for 2 weeks along with nolva then begin nolva and clomid for a further 2 weeks to finish off pct?

 

Thanks so much Scott

I may PM you soon but I need a serious jumpstart as I did not use hcg during cycle. I know i experienced atrophy during cycle but thought it would bounce back with some clom/nolva or trib. Not the case. I have been off now for more than a month so everything is cleared. What do you think of DHEA?

 

One last question....

Do you shoot HCG IM or SQ ?

I used to just use slin pin in a delt?

 

Sub-Q on the HCG mate.

DHEA is awesome, it can supply the raw building materials for recovery of T levels, but it is best to aid in controlling cortisol.

But, too much converts to estrogen, so I would be very careful with this one, low dose is ok, something like 25mg max a day, high dose of DHEA can actually cause testicular atrophy.

It can elivate testosterone in women, and estrogen in men............

But for adrenal issues, it does work pretty killer and if you have been on for a long time, no doubt you will have adrenal burnout to some degree.

 

Sub-Q on the HCG mate.

DHEA is awesome, it can supply the raw building materials for recovery of T levels, but it is best to aid in controlling cortisol.

But, too much converts to estrogen, so I would be very careful with this one, low dose is ok, something like 25mg max a day, high dose of DHEA can actually cause testicular atrophy.

It can elivate testosterone in women, and estrogen in men............

But for adrenal issues, it does work pretty killer and if you have been on for a long time, no doubt you will have adrenal burnout to some degree.

Hi Scott in conjunction with Rhom pct caps how does this look?

Week1-12 500mg Test per week.

week 12-14 2500hcg EOD

week 12-16 Rhom pct caps?

Would this work or does he advise use of pct for 45 days rather than standard 30?. And stupid Question but is that 2500 HCG split throughout the day EOD or in one go lol.

 

Hi Scott in conjunction with Rhom pct caps how does this look?

Week1-12 500mg Test per week.

week 12-14 2500hcg EOD

week 12-16 Rhom pct caps?

Would this work or does he advise use of pct for 45 days rather than standard 30?. And stupid Question but is that 2500 HCG split throughout the day EOD or in one go lol.

What kind of test?

You need some time for that to clear, if you dont recovery wont be possible.

How much test and what type?

Sorry about the Rhom caps, I dont really know what they contain.

I know basicly what is in there but not how much.

100mg a day of clomid works nice.

The HCG is shot at night before bed, about a couple of hours before would be nice.

 

What kind of test?

You need some time for that to clear, if you dont recovery wont be possible.

How much test and what type?

Sorry about the Rhom caps, I dont really know what they contain.

I know basicly what is in there but not how much.

100mg a day of clomid works nice.

The HCG is shot at night before bed, about a couple of hours before would be nice.

Weeks 1-12 Once Per Week @

Testosterone Heptylate 300mg

Nandralone Deconate 200mg

When would you kick the HCG/PCT in. So 2500 right before bed for 15 days EOD ? So would need 7 days worth at 2500.

I would assume id wait for the HCG 15 days before hitting the PCT Caps then? I think the contain Clomid,Nolvadex,Proviron and 1 other compound not sure how much either tho? How does that sound.