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Do you guys think there is any point taking HCG with 19-nors, I am doubtful HCG will stop me getting shutdown when 19-nors are thrown into the mix.

I also think I will be de-sensitising myself to HCG by using it for 10+ years so It may be best to not use it and then use it when I need to?

This study shows it is very unlikely I wont be able to bounce back, I dont know what to do arghh.... :cursing:            What would you guys do?

http://tau.amegroups.com/article/view/2249/3145)

@TERBO @Sasnak @Juice_head

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14 minutes ago, Harry N said:

Do you guys think there is any point taking HCG with 19-nors

Yes. I think it negates the sides caused by 19nor as it fools the hpta system into thinking it actually works. Stargazer has similar opinions. There is no scientific evidence afaik. ElChapo stated that leydig cell desensitisation doesn’t happen. Again, no studies. Ultimately you cannot expect to use these drugs for years and not possibly experience problems down the line 

Edit - I’ve been running hcg since 2018 as I believe it has benefits. I cruised on hcg alone for a large part of the summer without issues. I had a vasectomy almost 15 years ago so I don’t run it for fertility 

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2 minutes ago, Sasnak said:

Yes. I think it negates the sides caused by 19nor as it fools the hpta system into thinking it actually works. Stargazer has similar opinions. There is no scientific evidence afaik. ElChapo stated that leydig cell desensitisation doesn’t happen. Again, no studies. Ultimately you cannot expect to use these drugs for years and not possibly experience problems down the line 

f**k it, ill keep using HCG

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Just take a low dose 1x week if you are blasting for a long time. It is better than being completely shut down for months on end. I always use hcg on cycle because it makes it easier to come off. I only start feeling really shitty towards the end of pct.

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19 minutes ago, Harry N said:

Do you guys think there is any point taking HCG with 19-nors, I am doubtful HCG will stop me getting shutdown when 19-nors are thrown into the mix.

Agree with @Sasnak comments.

My sperm started to disappear once low dose deca (150mg E7D) kicked in, had to add hcg to rectify and have continued using.

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9 hours ago, Phil6 said:

Are you sure she's pregnant with you ? lol. Only kidding mate.

Haha she did say if the baby comes out mixed race I shouldn’t be suspicious as her great grandad was Nigerian :thumbup1:

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Been on hcg ever since I started gear 

Yes it’ll work even with 19 nors

Over the years I’ve had fake hcg twice, both times my nuts were in agony within a couple weeks, soon as I got back on the legit stuff they stopped hurting and filled back up, so definitely not desensitised after say 4 years solid 

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12 hours ago, Harry N said:

Do you guys think there is any point taking HCG with 19-nors, I am doubtful HCG will stop me getting shutdown when 19-nors are thrown into the mix.

I also think I will be de-sensitising myself to HCG by using it for 10+ years so It may be best to not use it and then use it when I need to?

This study shows it is very unlikely I wont be able to bounce back, I dont know what to do arghh.... :cursing:            What would you guys do?

http://tau.amegroups.com/article/view/2249/3145)

@TERBO @Sasnak @Juice_head

all of my kids were conceived when i was on gear, from test and tren to test only 

gear does suppress sperm but hcg does restart it, regardless of how suppressed you are 

if you use hcg for 10 years then your recovery won't be as bad as it would be if they were shut down for 10 years, forget all of this de-sensitising crap, as others have said it hasn't affected them 

even without hcg your body would likely bounce back when you come off, its a minority of guys that have issues ( i know lots of bodybuilders who had kids after years of HEAVY gear, one IFBB Pro who even competed at the Mr Olympia Men's Open , who were on for years, decades, and had no problems).  

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13 hours ago, Pez189 said:

I’d Be interested to learn more about this. First time I’ve heard of that. 

You need to know a bit about the biphasic properties of hCG and generally the pharmacodynamics of hCG and it's effect on steroidogenesis.

Here is just a snippet from a sticky i wrote for this forum.

An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

 

The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation.

Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results.

A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion.

Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma.

The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response.

It is advisable to start this protocol around week 2-3 in the cycle and continue till the start of PCT.

 

hCG use and the P450 cytochrome:

 

Firstly a little basic info on the P450 enzyme and why hCG use on cycle is extremely beneficial:

The CYP450 (cytochrome P450) enzyme system is a key pathway for drug metabolism.

Many lipophilic drugs must undergo biotransformation to more hydrophilic compounds to be excreted from the body.

The majority of drugs undergo phase I metabolism (e.g., oxidation, reduction) by CYP450 enzymes,

this is especially indicative of anabolic androgenic steroids and endogenous steroid hormones.

We all know the importance of incorporating hCG into our cycle, this is just another good reason to use hCG.

In laymans terms hCG increases the dynamics of CYP450 which in turn increases the rate at which drugs can be metabolized,

which in turn increases protein dynamics.

Basically by the action of hCG on P450 dynamics it also increases pregnenolone which

is the precursor for all other steroid hormones and has many benefits,

one of which is that it serves to keep/restore a natural hormonal balance within this key pathway even if the HPTA is suppressed,

it also has energizing, anti-stress benefits, elevates mood through the raising of NDMA activity and reduces excess Cortisol,

so if we can increase this steroid hormone with the use of hCG, we should.

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41 minutes ago, stargazer said:

You need to know a bit about the biphasic properties of hCG and generally the pharmacodynamics of hCG and it's effect on steroidogenesis.

Here is just a snippet from a sticky i wrote for this forum.

An in vivo injection or an episode of LH secretion induced by GnRH, results in stimulation of the side-chain cleavage enzyme with the subsequent release of testosterone within 30-60 minutes of LH stimulation. The acute response to an injection of LH is dramatic in some species such as the rat and the ram but is much more attenuated in the human. This testosterone response lasts approximately 24-48 hours. If human chorionic gonadotrophin is used as an LH substitute, the kinetics of the initial stimulation are similar to LH but a second peak of testosterone secretion is evidence with hCG and occurs 48-72 hours after the initial injection. This biphasic pattern has been attributed to the observation that between 24 and 48 hours after an LH or hCG injection, the Leydig cells are refractory to further stimulation by either hormone. The second phase of testosterone secretion after hCG but not LH is associated with the longer half-life of hCG in comparison to LH. The hCG levels persist in the circulation and, following recovery from the refractoriness, testosterone levels increase. This observation has significant clinical importance since, in many men, a single weekly injection of hCG will suffice to maintain optimum testosterone responses rather than the frequent practice of giving injections of hCG two to three times per week.

 

The stimulation of leydig cells with large amounts of hCG rapidly reduces their number of receptors, this phenemenom is termed down-regulation.

Although these changes decrease testosterone levels to just above diurnal maxima 24-48hrs after initial injection repeated stimulation does not yield the same results.

A single injection of hCG is followed by a long steroidogenic response characterized by two phases of testosterone secretion.

Studies show that this second phase which can last as long as 8 days can increase testosterone in plasma by 2.2 x above maximal diurnal secretion even though hCG is no longer present in plasma.

The results indicate that hCG injections can be given every 6-7 days due to the prolonged steroidogenic response.

It is advisable to start this protocol around week 2-3 in the cycle and continue till the start of PCT.

 

hCG use and the P450 cytochrome:

 

Firstly a little basic info on the P450 enzyme and why hCG use on cycle is extremely beneficial:

The CYP450 (cytochrome P450) enzyme system is a key pathway for drug metabolism.

Many lipophilic drugs must undergo biotransformation to more hydrophilic compounds to be excreted from the body.

The majority of drugs undergo phase I metabolism (e.g., oxidation, reduction) by CYP450 enzymes,

this is especially indicative of anabolic androgenic steroids and endogenous steroid hormones.

We all know the importance of incorporating hCG into our cycle, this is just another good reason to use hCG.

In laymans terms hCG increases the dynamics of CYP450 which in turn increases the rate at which drugs can be metabolized,

which in turn increases protein dynamics.

Basically by the action of hCG on P450 dynamics it also increases pregnenolone which

is the precursor for all other steroid hormones and has many benefits,

one of which is that it serves to keep/restore a natural hormonal balance within this key pathway even if the HPTA is suppressed,

it also has energizing, anti-stress benefits, elevates mood through the raising of NDMA activity and reduces excess Cortisol,

so if we can increase this steroid hormone with the use of hCG, we should.

If I just did 250 IU monday and friday would you say that would be a good protocol?

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Just now, Harry N said:

If I just did 250 IU monday and friday would you say that would be a good protocol?

Thats a tough question, IMO 500iu over 7 days might be pushing it, my advice has always been 1000iu p/w but you could probably get away with 750iu.

Maybe just try it at your protocol and see how you get on mate.

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2 hours ago, stargazer said:

Thats a tough question, IMO 500iu over 7 days might be pushing it, my advice has always been 1000iu p/w but you could probably get away with 750iu.

Maybe just try it at your protocol and see how you get on mate.

Been doing 250 IU mon,wed,fri (750 IU PW) and my load still has sperm in it I think infact maybe even more volume than before trt, balls have definitely shrank a noticeable ammount since adding deca 200mg pw. 

How do I try it and see how i get on?

How the hell do i know.

Thanks.

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Why the prices for these drugs are extremely expensive in your country !!! 

In my country HCG three vials of 1500iu -4500iu total-cost only 10usd and HMG 150iu costs 25usd I have heard that HMG in your countries costs up to 200usd!! 

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37 minutes ago, Gymrat12 said:

Why the prices for these drugs are extremely expensive in your country !!! 

In my country HCG three vials of 1500iu -4500iu total-cost only 10usd and HMG 150iu costs 25usd I have heard that HMG in your countries costs up to 200usd!! 

No one sells HCG in the UK officially so I have to get it from a private company which imports it from Italy.

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4 minutes ago, Harry N said:

No one sells HCG in the UK officially so I have to get it from a private company which imports it from Italy.

You use aas right?

And you buy from ugl's?

Why do you feel you need to buy hcg from a privste company that sells "officially"?

Just get it from your source?

Or am I missing something?

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4 minutes ago, stuey99 said:

You use aas right?

And you buy from ugl's?

Why do you feel you need to buy hcg from a privste company that sells "officially"?

Just get it from your source?

Or am I missing something?

I don't trust it is what it claims to be in terms of dosage. It is a fake product afterall, Ovigil is no longer manufactured... 

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1 minute ago, Harry N said:

I don't trust it is what it claims to be in terms of dosage. It is a fake product afterall, Ovigil is no longer manufactured... 

So don't buy ovigil then if you're uncomfortable with it

Plenty generics available

In all honesty mate, you're already askin if you can cut corners and dosages to save money...

I think you're just concentrating on the wrong things

Plenty guys use what's available in the uk with no issues...why not run correct dosages of what others use and find to be good...rather than spending twice as much on imported stuff from Italy (which is probably exactly the same) and cutting corners on doses

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4 minutes ago, stuey99 said:

So don't buy ovigil then if you're uncomfortable with it

Plenty generics available

In all honesty mate, you're already askin if you can cut corners and dosages to save money...

I think you're just concentrating on the wrong things

Plenty guys use what's available in the uk with no issues...why not run correct dosages of what others use and find to be good...rather than spending twice as much on imported stuff from Italy (which is probably exactly the same) and cutting corners on doses

If I could get a good generic product I'd do that but I only use SG and they only have ovigil. 

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2 minutes ago, Harry N said:

If I could get a good generic product I'd do that but I only use SG and they only have ovigil. 

There’s nothing wrong with ovigil... how does your U.K. trt doc know what an Indian ugl is / isn’t producing?

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