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JackTorrance

Cutting on cruise, large deficit, amount of test needed?

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COVID basically rekt me. My body fat rocketed, wasn't able to train properly. Been on a cruise from the start.

Now I'm cutting aggressively, 750 to 1000 calorie deficit per day. Lifting 4 days a week too now gyms are open.

My usual cruise dose is 120 mg/week, I don't need AI for that amount. What is the minimum amount of test I should use for a cut like this?

I've gone up to 19% body fat during lockdown by the way...

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2 minutes ago, JackTorrance said:

COVID basically rekt me. My body fat rocketed, wasn't able to train properly. Been on a cruise from the start.

Now I'm cutting aggressively, 750 to 1000 calorie deficit per day. Lifting 4 days a week too now gyms are open.

My usual cruise dose is 120 mg/week, I don't need AI for that amount. What is the minimum amount of test I should use for a cut like this?

I've gone up to 19% body fat during lockdown by the way...

Personally ive been running 200mg of test for my cut, my intentions were to cut and then go into a gaining phase when gyms open, as im in Scotland that wont be till the middle of september. So ive decided to keep on with the cut.

Ive cut for 12 weeks so far on 200mg of test and now added 50mg of winstrol to the mix , weight coming off, im getting stronger and more defined so gonna keep this up.

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It would depend entirely on what kind of mass you are trying to hold onto. Not sure why people use super small dosages here when cutting. More gear allows for faster weight loss without losing lean mass, more energy and you can even get stronger and bigger. At least when slowly cutting. 

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35 minutes ago, iron2000 said:

It would depend entirely on what kind of mass you are trying to hold onto. Not sure why people use super small dosages here when cutting. More gear allows for faster weight loss without losing lean mass, more energy and you can even get stronger and bigger. At least when slowly cutting. 

I've probably lost muscle I legit have no idea where I'm at. But my deficit now is around 750 to 1000 calories. 19% fat.

I only want to cut at about 2 lbs a week and not lose all the size I still have.

Then in about 6 to 8 weeks go on tren and recomp bulk to add size and strip a few more % fat. Should be perfect then.

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14 hours ago, iron2000 said:

It would depend entirely on what kind of mass you are trying to hold onto. Not sure why people use super small dosages here when cutting. More gear allows for faster weight loss without losing lean mass, more energy and you can even get stronger and bigger. At least when slowly cutting. 

Why would you need alot of gear to cut? Cutting comes down to diet nothing else. Why use large amounts of gear when your just trying to retain muscle?  Save the gear for a gaining phase and stop using it as excuse for poor diet and training.

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I'm doing a hard cut on 300mg test. That's plenty imo. 

As for why to run reasonably high test while cutting? Preserve more muscle, stronger/better pump in gym, more energy,etc.

This is contrarian to what most guys say around here but I I think a higher dose test benefits you more in a cut. I was putting on slabs of muscle with just 200mg test a week and eating like a savage.

If you read what the bodybuilders of the golden era we're doing, like Arnold, that's what they did. Took very light doses while bulking and ramped them up for cuts. Arnold said he didn't even take anything while bulking but that's probably bullshit lol.

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35 minutes ago, shredcity said:

I'm doing a hard cut on 300mg test. That's plenty imo. 

As for why to run reasonably high test while cutting? Preserve more muscle, stronger/better pump in gym, more energy,etc.

This is contrarian to what most guys say around here but I I think a higher dose test benefits you more in a cut. I was putting on slabs of muscle with just 200mg test a week and eating like a savage.

If you read what the bodybuilders of the golden era we're doing, like Arnold, that's what they did. Took very light doses while bulking and ramped them up for cuts. Arnold said he didn't even take anything while bulking but that's probably bullshit lol.

Mate knowledge improves over time...not the other way round

I doubt there's many (if any) guys on here who need as much as 300mg to cut

Edit: You seem to be suggesting 300mg to cut and less to bulk lol

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5 hours ago, Mickstar said:

Why would you need alot of gear to cut? Cutting comes down to diet nothing else. Why use large amounts of gear when your just trying to retain muscle?  Save the gear for a gaining phase and stop using it as excuse for poor diet and training.

Gotta love the internet lol. I did not say a lot I said more than trt. You don't need a lot gear to build muscle either since you have the kcal surplus stimulus in there.  When you have a decent amount of muscle to hold onto and you are trying to get stage level lean then you need enough gear to make it happen. Obviously this doesn't apply to 99% of the people here. I don't simply try to hold onto the muscle either. I aim to grow when dieting.

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22 minutes ago, stuey99 said:

Mate knowledge improves over time...not the other way round

I doubt there's many (if any) guys on here who need as much as 300mg to cut

Edit: You seem to be suggesting 300mg to cut and less to bulk lol

Yea I am suggesting that lol. I already had good mass before starting my cut. Don't really want to get bigger. Just want to hold onto that mass while in sharp caloric deficit. I think 300mg a week is a reasonable dose for that. Feel great. Maintaining strength. Energy levels solid. Boners even more solid lol.

As for knowledge approving over time, in some cases sure. I think bodybuilding has digressed though. Golden age bodybuilders were objectively more aesthetic and had real world strength. The mutants nowadays just take 10 grams of gear and don't even use free weights in many cases. It's a travesty. 

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11 minutes ago, shredcity said:

Yea I am suggesting that lol. I already had good mass before starting my cut. Don't really want to get bigger. Just want to hold onto that mass while in sharp caloric deficit. I think 300mg a week is a reasonable dose for that. Feel great. Maintaining strength. Energy levels solid. Boners even more solid lol.

As for knowledge approving over time, in some cases sure. I think bodybuilding has digressed though. Golden age bodybuilders were objectively more aesthetic and had real world strength. The mutants nowadays just take 10 grams of gear and don't even use free weights in many cases. It's a travesty. 

I absolutely agree you're gonna feel better and get better bonesrs on 300mg test mate...and in all honestly if I was still unterested in cutting these days then I'd undoubtedly do the same and use 300-350 test or slightly lower test with other compounds thrown in

That said, if we're talking about a test only cut I'd disagree that you'd  necessarily get bette results with 300mg than with 200mg...unless you had so much muscle mass that you needed 300mg to hold onto that on a defecit

With the comparison between bodybuilders today and "then"...it's never been about strength mate,...although I do get what you're saying

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I cut on cruises. Never noticed significant muscle loss. If I'm blasting I wanna milk it for all the gains I can get, cutting is counterproductive to that goal.

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You're probably right on that. 200mg properly dosed test is a lot more powerful than people reckon.

I'm just running it higher more for the mental & strength benefit than anything. Going from eating 4000+ calories a day to a little over 2000 is mentally grueling usually. But barely notice with the test. 

I don't think bodybuilding should be completely separate from strength. It's a bizarre to see a guy who looks like the hulk who can't even deadlift 500lbs.  Hell i was doing over 400lbs as a natty 180lb kid. The word is body-building. That should include stronger tendons, bones, etc. Being a puffed up balloon is no accomplishment at all. All the golden age guys used to compete in powerlifting/strongman events.  Very few modern bodybuilders have the strength to do that. Its pathetic. 

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2 hours ago, iron2000 said:

Gotta love the internet lol. I did not say a lot I said more than trt. You don't need a lot gear to build muscle either since you have the kcal surplus stimulus in there.  When you have a decent amount of muscle to hold onto and you are trying to get stage level lean then you need enough gear to make it happen. Obviously this doesn't apply to 99% of the people here. I don't simply try to hold onto the muscle either. I aim to grow when dieting.

You never said that though mate. You said you dont get why people on here use super low doses to cut when you use higher to shred faster. Plus you must be special if you can grow on a cut , isnt that counteractive to what your doing?

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5 hours ago, shredcity said:

You're probably right on that. 200mg properly dosed test is a lot more powerful than people reckon.

I'm just running it higher more for the mental & strength benefit than anything. Going from eating 4000+ calories a day to a little over 2000 is mentally grueling usually. But barely notice with the test. 

I don't think bodybuilding should be completely separate from strength. It's a bizarre to see a guy who looks like the hulk who can't even deadlift 500lbs.  Hell i was doing over 400lbs as a natty 180lb kid. The word is body-building. That should include stronger tendons, bones, etc. Being a puffed up balloon is no accomplishment at all. All the golden age guys used to compete in powerlifting/strongman events.  Very few modern bodybuilders have the strength to do that. Its pathetic. 

Utter crap.

The modern era bodybuilders are freak fu**ing strong. Kai Green is insanely powerful-fu**ing guy benched 500lbs for 8 reps. Ronnie squatted more than any powerlifter I’ve met in real life.

Im not interested in weighing in on the drug debate but don’t give me this golden era s**t. 

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On 30/07/2020 at 7:38 PM, JackTorrance said:

COVID basically rekt me. My body fat rocketed, wasn't able to train properly. Been on a cruise from the start.

Now I'm cutting aggressively, 750 to 1000 calorie deficit per day. Lifting 4 days a week too now gyms are open.

My usual cruise dose is 120 mg/week, I don't need AI for that amount. What is the minimum amount of test I should use for a cut like this?

I've gone up to 19% body fat during lockdown by the way...

19% isn't the end of the world. 

A 750-1000 cal daily deficit is Far too much of a deficit and you will  ecounter energy drops amongst other issues, plus what happens when you hit a plateau where do you go from there? , you have no where to go as you've jumped 10 paces when only 1 pace was needed to get the ball rolling, use an IIFYM calculator and project a 10% deficit, then when you hit a plateau after a few weeks you can start adding a greater deficit. 

Keep your test dose at 120mg. 

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57 minutes ago, arbffgadm100 said:

Utter crap.

The modern era bodybuilders are freak fu**ing strong. Kai Green is insanely powerful-fu**ing guy benched 500lbs for 8 reps. Ronnie squatted more than any powerlifter I’ve met in real life.

Im not interested in weighing in on the drug debate but don’t give me this golden era s**t. 

Those are exceptions rather than the rule. Ronnie was known as the heavy lift guy. Also doubt you've met many 300lb+ powerlifters then as all his lifts would be standard for them. 

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9 hours ago, Sustanation said:

19% isn't the end of the world. 

A 750-1000 cal daily deficit is Far too much of a deficit and you will  ecounter energy drops amongst other issues, plus what happens when you hit a plateau where do you go from there? , you have no where to go as you've jumped 10 paces when only 1 pace was needed to get the ball rolling, use an IIFYM calculator and project a 10% deficit, then when you hit a plateau after a few weeks you can start adding a greater deficit. 

Keep your test dose at 120mg. 

I'm already on prescribed thyroid meds for hypothyroidism and have been for years, that should keep my metabolism normal? I wanna go for that 1.5 to 2 lbs a week fat loss. I'm motivated as f**k and just paid 4K on a StairMaster for my home so am using that a lot.

I figured it out how I'm gonna do this. I'm doing 30 mg tbol/day just to save muscle on such a cut with an hour to 2 hours LISS per day plus a dietary deficit (should amount to roughly 750 to 1000 deficit per day).

I've already dropped onto normal TRT and not lifted for months so I'm not holding unhuman amounts of muscle so this should be enough.

Then in 8 weeks I can lean bulk and I'll end up precisely where I want. I might even do that lean bulk with tren and probably exceed my goal by quite a lot.

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Depends on how much muscle you're carrying, how lean you intend to get, how much lean mass you're willing to sacrifice and what kind of look you're going for in the process. 

If you're fat and looking to cut down to soft abs or if you're a pencil well under your genetic limit for muscle mass then yea sure you can cut on (next to or) nothing.

But if you have a large amount of muscle and intend to cut very lean then you absolutely will be sacrificing considerable amounts by using trt to do so.

I get it's kind of the in thing to be really conservative when cutting but prep cycles are called that for a reason

You won't see any decent bodybuilder going into a comp on 125mg test and they won't get any extra points from the judges for doing so.

I'd say if anything needs adjusting it's using less during mass gaining phases when food and recovery are high and instead using training to gain large amounts of muscle whilst using just enough drugs to enhance that.

Thankfully it doesn't have to be either or so maybe just use a little less during a gaining phase and a smidgen more during a cutting phase when expenditure is high and calories are low. 

This will result in greater muscle retention during cutting periods with very little negative impact on muscle gained during bulking periods

Equalling more annual progress.

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4 hours ago, JackTorrance said:

I'm already on prescribed thyroid meds for hypothyroidism and have been for years, that should keep my metabolism normal? I wanna go for that 1.5 to 2 lbs a week fat loss. I'm motivated as f**k and just paid 4K on a StairMaster for my home so am using that a lot.

I figured it out how I'm gonna do this. I'm doing 30 mg tbol/day just to save muscle on such a cut with an hour to 2 hours LISS per day plus a dietary deficit (should amount to roughly 750 to 1000 deficit per day).

I've already dropped onto normal TRT and not lifted for months so I'm not holding unhuman amounts of muscle so this should be enough.

Then in 8 weeks I can lean bulk and I'll end up precisely where I want. I might even do that lean bulk with tren and probably exceed my goal by quite a lot.

Oh so the complete opposite of what I stated then, brilliant mate you crack on and in future don't post on a forum asking for advise when I'm reality you've made your own mind up. 

 

This forums getting more retarded by the day. 

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23 hours ago, swole troll said:

Depends on how much muscle you're carrying, how lean you intend to get, how much lean mass you're willing to sacrifice and what kind of look you're going for in the process. 

If you're fat and looking to cut down to soft abs or if you're a pencil well under your genetic limit for muscle mass then yea sure you can cut on (next to or) nothing.

But if you have a large amount of muscle and intend to cut very lean then you absolutely will be sacrificing considerable amounts by using trt to do so.

I get it's kind of the in thing to be really conservative when cutting but prep cycles are called that for a reason

You won't see any decent bodybuilder going into a comp on 125mg test and they won't get any extra points from the judges for doing so.

I'd say if anything needs adjusting it's using less during mass gaining phases when food and recovery are high and instead using training to gain large amounts of muscle whilst using just enough drugs to enhance that.

Thankfully it doesn't have to be either or so maybe just use a little less during a gaining phase and a smidgen more during a cutting phase when expenditure is high and calories are low. 

This will result in greater muscle retention during cutting periods with very little negative impact on muscle gained during bulking periods

Equalling more annual progress.

I haven't lifted weights in about 6 months since lockdown. I look s**t and fat. I want to kill myself looking like this and probably would if I was stuck this way.

I lost like all my muscle and gained loads of fat. Just imagine you quit the gym and ate potato chips every day for 6 months. Now I'm f**ked.

So I basically want as big of a deficit as I can get without stripping muscle (which I'm probably pathetically lacking in anyway due to being out of the gym for many months)... I think 750 to 1000 calories should be okay with a tiny bit of tbol insurance policy...

8 weeks losing 10 to 16 lbs of fat should be enough to make me normal again.

No idea if I'll gain rebound muscle or not. Even if not I'll just tren at the end. Seems simple.

Only concern is muscle loss though I'm not carrying much anymore, and metabolism slowing.

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29 minutes ago, JackTorrance said:

I haven't lifted weights in about 6 months since lockdown. I look s**t and fat. I want to kill myself looking like this and probably would if I was stuck this way.

No idea if I'll gain rebound muscle or not. Even if not I'll just tren at the end. Seems simple.

What could go wrong 

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On 01/08/2020 at 1:42 PM, swole troll said:

Depends on how much muscle you're carrying, how lean you intend to get, how much lean mass you're willing to sacrifice and what kind of look you're going for in the process. 

If you're fat and looking to cut down to soft abs or if you're a pencil well under your genetic limit for muscle mass then yea sure you can cut on (next to or) nothing.

But if you have a large amount of muscle and intend to cut very lean then you absolutely will be sacrificing considerable amounts by using trt to do so.

I get it's kind of the in thing to be really conservative when cutting but prep cycles are called that for a reason

You won't see any decent bodybuilder going into a comp on 125mg test and they won't get any extra points from the judges for doing so.

I'd say if anything needs adjusting it's using less during mass gaining phases when food and recovery are high and instead using training to gain large amounts of muscle whilst using just enough drugs to enhance that.

Thankfully it doesn't have to be either or so maybe just use a little less during a gaining phase and a smidgen more during a cutting phase when expenditure is high and calories are low. 

This will result in greater muscle retention during cutting periods with very little negative impact on muscle gained during bulking periods

Equalling more annual progress.

Got a question for ya mate as interested in your opinion on something kinda related

Let's take your average, intermediate bodybuilder,  lets say 100kg or just over...12%bf

Obviously all person dependant, but in your opinion, what's a decent dose range for bulking ie, a minimum and a max (above which any extra mgs will bring little extra reward

I know a very broad question, but just ball park figures

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2 hours ago, stuey99 said:

Got a question for ya mate as interested in your opinion on something kinda related

Let's take your average, intermediate bodybuilder,  lets say 100kg or just over...12%bf

Obviously all person dependant, but in your opinion, what's a decent dose range for bulking ie, a minimum and a max (above which any extra mgs will bring little extra reward

I know a very broad question, but just ball park figures

It is far too broad to answer 

When people say 'genetics' this boils down to response to food, training and drugs

Some will convert more hormone to oestrogen or dht, have more bound up with shbg

Some simply respond awful to gear, I know of someone online I wont name and a friend of mine that takes grams! And has very little response both positive and negative as shown by bloodwork.

And I know for a fact my friend is taking legitimate gear as it's the same stuff I'm using at a 3rd of his dosing.

He is also in the top 10 in the 110kg weight cat for the UK in PL so he's not a chump leaning on gear, everything is in tune he just needs a LOT of gear for the modest results he gets from it.

You then have to factor in those that might not be training as hard as they think they are or maybe over training, not getting enough rest, living a stressful life, eating foods that don't agree with them.

Honestly the list goes on forever as to why I can't answer it clear cut. 

I just think by n large lately there seems to be a fad on pushing cutting doses to silly levels (a tenth of bulking doses)

how can one expect to retain the muscle they build using 1500mg when running only 150mg to diet down? They either responded poorly to their bulking dose or didn't have all the other variables in line and wasted it. 

We should all strive to use as little as possible all the time but within reason and reflective of the dose we last used in order to bulk.

And by that I mean if you totally destroy your health markers to gain muscle only to piss it away on tiny doses when cutting then it seems a bit of wasteful approach when you could simply use less both sides, retain more and damage your health less.

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1 hour ago, swole troll said:

It is far too broad to answer 

When people say 'genetics' this boils down to response to food, training and drugs

Some will convert more hormone to oestrogen or dht, have more bound up with shbg

Some simply respond awful to gear, I know of someone online I wont name and a friend of mine that takes grams! And has very little response both positive and negative as shown by bloodwork.

And I know for a fact my friend is taking legitimate gear as it's the same stuff I'm using at a 3rd of his dosing.

He is also in the top 10 in the 110kg weight cat for the UK in PL so he's not a chump leaning on gear, everything is in tune he just needs a LOT of gear for the modest results he gets from it.

You then have to factor in those that might not be training as hard as they think they are or maybe over training, not getting enough rest, living a stressful life, eating foods that don't agree with them.

Honestly the list goes on forever as to why I can't answer it clear cut. 

I just think by n large lately there seems to be a fad on pushing cutting doses to silly levels (a tenth of bulking doses)

how can one expect to retain the muscle they build using 1500mg when running only 150mg to diet down? They either responded poorly to their bulking dose or didn't have all the other variables in line and wasted it. 

We should all strive to use as little as possible all the time but within reason and reflective of the dose we last used on order to bulk.

And by that I mean if you totally destroy your health markers to gain muscle only to piss it away on tiny doses when cutting then it seems a bit of wasteful approach when you could simply use less both sides, retain more and damage your health less.

Great answer mate!!

 

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8 hours ago, swole troll said:

What could go wrong?

I wouldn't have a clue. I basically haven't trained in 6 months so any superman muscle I have I am certain must be totally down the drain by now.

Bodybuilding is the most contradictory thing that has ever existed since the universe began.

As you probably know this is what it's like when Googling for answers on training:

Muscle confusion matters. Muscle confusion is a myth.

8 to 12 reps for hypertrophy. Reps is a myth it's all time under tension. Oh but now time under tension is a myth. Now it's not again. Now it's 15 to 20 reps. Oh no wait 5x5 strength = size.

Only do partials. Oh but actually don't do that now just do full RoM.

Carnivore diet. Keto diet. IIFYM.

Anabolic window. Anabolic window is a myth.

Eat before working out or you'll lose muscle. Don't eat before working out if you don't want to if makes no difference unless you're like running 10Ks.

You can't lose fat and gain muscle unless you've never lifted before. But now over here on THIS YouTube channel or board everyone says you can lose fat and gain muscle any time.

Don't bother using liver supplements on cycle they do nothing. Always use liver supplements on cycle.

Do fasted cardio you'll maximize fat burning. Never do fasted cardio you'll only lose muscle.

Metabolic damage happens easily. Metabolic damage never happens.

Here's 20 studies. Here's another 20 proving the last 20 were wrong.

Don't eat bread. Oh btw you can eat bread.

Forum X are all dumb and wrong. No forum Y are all dumb and wrong.

X is how you need to train.  X is a relic from the 80s and is nonsense.

Never dirty bulk and cut just lean bulk. Always bulk way over surplus and cut.

...

Ask random gym-goers and it's even worse... There is mutually exclusive advice on basically every single aspect of bodybuilding and weight loss. Only progressive overload and calories in/out is even agreed on and even then some people say you can eat a 10000 calorie surplus per day and not possibly evee gain fat if you do Intermittent Fasting or Keto.

It's like a never-ending journey into madness where every single expert says totally contradictory information and you will never ever know what the truth is.

There will very very likely be a cure for at least some form of cancer before there is a consensus on how a person should eat or train to most efficiently maximize their physique. Bodybuilding is just he said she said he said and you flip a twenty-sided coin on who's right and pray you get lucky.

Will I literally f**k myself by going into a 750 kcal deficit? How would I know. 20 people say yes 20 say no. 20 forums say yes 20 say no and all of them say the other is wrong. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is to find a way to drop 1.5 to 2 lbs a week with minimal muscle loss. It should not. You should be able to plug it into Google and up pops THE answer, not 20000 websites and YouTube videos claiming mutually exclusive info.

This is what I hate about BB'ing. I'm always changing my routine entirely because there'll be some video about the exact thing I'm doing (which I got from another fitness channel) saying it's BS and do this instead. Then I'll do that thing instead and the same happens with some other video by the time a month has passed.

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