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Pez189

Injecting testosterone. IM v Subq?

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What do you do and why? 

I’ve Been looking at some studies (which are included in the link below), which basically put forward a case that subq = better, aswell as microdosing. The text Below is an extract from a blog by Dr Robert Stevens at The mens health clinic (private TRT clinic). It’s a good and worthwhile read if you’re interested in these kinda things, as are the other studies in the blog. 
 

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“Testosterone preparations needs to enter the venous system to be transferred to the liver in order to have the attached ester cleaved.  Testosterone has traditionally been administered via the intramuscular route as it is highly vascular. If the ester is cleaved too quickly, there can be a spike of oestradiol which can cause negative side effects such as anxiety, water retention, bloating and potentially gynaecomastia (breast tissue).  The subcutaneous route is a suitable alternative as the absorption is delayed.  Oil injected into this area encounters adipose (fat cells), collagen and fibrous tissue before entering capillaries, which then form veins and the lymphatic system, eventually joining the venous system.  This essentially dilutes the rate of absorption, which not only leads to stable levels, but also less aromatisation of testosterone to oestradiol.  Injecting into the subcutaneous space is also less painful and better tolerated than injecting into the muscle” - Source The mens health clinic

(Link)

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I inject 0.4ml sub-q every week when I prepare my two weekly jabs as I have left over in the ampoule that can't fit in the two syringes. I inject the 0.4ml in my stomach with an insulin pin and it burns to inject and leaves a hard painful lump for a week. I wouldn't recommend it.

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2 hours ago, Pez189 said:

What do you do and why? 

Read link and I just don't believe the science behind it... even pharma test I've previously used said via IM injection.

Quote

Our data demonstrate that when testosterone cypionate is injected SC at a weekly interval, mean serum levels remain stable and within the normal range. A similar pattern of mean serum testosterone levels has been reported with weekly IM injections of testosterone

Believe sub q was/is pushed as a way for people that are scared to jab to have a go.

People are worried that IM will hurt so use a little needle as a cop out, but I've read many reports of welts and lumps lasting days from sub q test injections.

Personally I'll stick to weekly IM injections for my TRT, it's quick, easy and usually painless.

 

# Micro dosing - Based on your previous posts, I understand the reasoning behind it but don't think the minimal benefits are worth the extra jabs.

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If you use steroids and have so much fat that you can inject subq without issues you're doing it wrong imo. I've had gear come out of muscle and go under the skin. It doesn't feel or look good. Who wants to have jiggly gear under skin that blurs definition and irritates skin?

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Makes me feel better about the times I've bottled it during an awkward pin and just injected the liquid without pushing the needle deep enough :whistling:

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20 minutes ago, TERBO said:

Read link and I just don't believe the science behind it... even pharma test I've previously used said via IM injection.

Believe sub q was/is pushed as a way for people that are scared to jab to have a go.

People are worried that IM will hurt so use a little needle as a cop out, but I've read many reports of welts and lumps lasting days from sub q test injections.

Personally I'll stick to weekly IM injections for my TRT, it's quick, easy and usually painless.

 

# Micro dosing - Based on your previous posts, I understand the reasoning behind it but don't think the minimal benefits are worth the extra jabs.

There’s more to it then just Taking the pain Of the injection into consideration though, mainly the absorption rate and relationship with E2, aswell as perhaps bodyfat %. 
 

I can understand why for TRT, The recommended protocol is HCG Subq and test IM, or even injections a day apart which some docs recommend. It isn’t about the needle length/pain, it’s about the different absorption rates that affect E2 spikes And blood levels, Which is backed up in those various studies.  Test prop IM for faster absorption, absolutely.. but a slower ester subq in a slower absorbing area, I’m not sure There’s much wrong with that in theory. However I think the amount of fluid going in plays a huge part in PIP for example. 


Micro dosing for more stable bloods Vs extra injections/higher possibility scar tissue, that’s a whole other debate in itself. So many Different variables with all these things. I probably find this more interesting then I should lol. 

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Personally, makes no difference, but you can't Sub-q more than about 0.4ml??

If you're doing TRT, can't see an issue doing 90m Test (0.3ml) Sub-Q, might save some scar tissue in the muscle.

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4 minutes ago, Pez189 said:

However I think the amount of fluid going in plays a huge part in PIP for example. 


I probably find this more interesting then I should lol. 

This is probably where micro dosing plays a more important role when it comes to SC, less amount of test = less amount of pip/welts etc

I think it pretty comenderable that you have such a vested interest, better than most jabbing without any knowledge ;)

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12 minutes ago, TERBO said:

This is probably where micro dosing plays a more important role when it comes to SC, less amount of test = less amount of pip/welts etc

I think it pretty comenderable that you have such a vested interest, better than most jabbing without any knowledge ;)

I’m on TRT for life so think the least I can do is learn as much as possible about it. maybe il know as much as my GP soon :P

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Subq is great, i inject 0.3ml twice a week, its alot quicker, easier and less painful than doing it IM, but at certain locations you might experience some of the oil coming back out, if i inject subq in the "love handle" area some of the oil comes back out, i just pull together some fat on my lower stomach and inject into it and have no problems, bloodworks show lower estrogen and hemoglobin, not sure if its related but worth noting
 

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8 minutes ago, TERBO said:

Fixed needle... isn't that a pain to back fill twice a week.

Wouldn't a needle like this be easier?

I used to just add a 30g Needle like that to the Same 1ml syringe I use for IM And inject with that.
 

With Fixed needle. Use Once. Dispose. Repeat. Super easy. Cost is negligible. same thing really.  

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1 minute ago, Pez189 said:

I used to just add a 30g Needle like that to the Same 1ml syringe I use for IM And inject with that.
 

With Fixed needle. Use Once. Dispose. Repeat. Super easy. Cost is negligible. same thing really.  

It's just the back fill that puts me off (had to do it the other day for something) and if you're SC it seems pointless when like you said, you can just buy half inch 30g needles and swap it over after drawing with the green, thus you are only using one syringe and two needles per jab, like you do with IM.

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14 minutes ago, TERBO said:

It's just the back fill that puts me off (had to do it the other day for something) and if you're SC it seems pointless when like you said, you can just buy half inch 30g needles and swap it over after drawing with the green, thus you are only using one syringe and two needles per jab, like you do with IM.

True but with fixed you can draw/inject With an “all in 1” thing (drawing doesn’t blunt the needle), so you’re saving yourself a needle. I mean the difference is minimal. I’m mainly using the fixed Ones as they’re sat there in the cupboard. 

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1 hour ago, Pez189 said:

Why only 0.4ml? What’s that based off? 

Just personal experience pal, I've tried 0.5ml before, and got a good size lump for about 5 days, was bonderline going to go doctors about it.

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4 minutes ago, Pez189 said:

With an “all in 1” thing (drawing doesn’t blunt the needle)

Didn't know there was such a thing, always thought it would blunt needle hence why people backfill.

Obviously okay for tiny HCG jab.

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Been on trt for year and half and always done IM for jabs once a week, recently started doing sub q twice a week so 0.2ml twice a week is 120mg test and find it much better than IM. Have better libido and few spots have seemed to fade too since jabbing twice a week, could be less spike in e2 causing unstable levels once a week IM. Also gives IM a break.  Im due bloods soon so will see the effect it has jabbing twice sub q instead of once IM as feel much better doing it this way.

Will go back to twice a week IM on blasts due to oil volume,  then back to subq for trt/cruise as its much easier and feel much better.

 

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1 minute ago, TERBO said:

Didn't know there was such a thing, always thought it would blunt needle hence why people backfill.

Obviously okay for tiny HCG jab.

I did wonder this myself as you’d think surely it would, but in practice, it doesn’t seem to. Completely painless subq injections for me but I only do a very tiny 0.1ml (500iu HCG) per injection. Back-fill is something I’d try avoid if possible, seems like a pain in the ass (sorry for the pun). 

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5 minutes ago, Lloyd H said:

Been on trt for year and half and always done IM for jabs once a week, recently started doing sub q twice a week so 0.2ml twice a week is 120mg test and find it much better than IM. Have better libido and few spots have seemed to fade too since jabbing twice a week, could be less spike in e2 causing unstable levels once a week IM. Also gives IM a break.  Im due bloods soon so will see the effect it has jabbing twice sub q instead of once IM as feel much better doing it this way.

Will go back to twice a week IM on blasts due to oil volume,  then back to subq for trt/cruise as its much easier and feel much better.

 

What type of test? You thought about doing IM twice a week? You might be feeling the benefit of microdosing twice a week, as opposed to where you’re injecting it. It would be interesting to see twice a week blood levels for IM v subq for a truly fair comparison. 

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Daily TestC + HCG always Sub-q. Honestly once you get the hang of it no issues whatsover. Can't remember the last time I had any lumps or PIP.

27G for the test and 29g for the HCG.

Not to teach someone to suck eggs but... pinch fat, push in needle and then let go of the fat - that way the Test won't run out.

Agree with Vinny that anything over 0.4ml is defo problematic and can cause lumps.

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Pez189 said:

What type of test? You thought about doing IM twice a week? You might be feeling the benefit of microdosing twice a week, as opposed to where you’re injecting it. It would be interesting to see twice a week blood levels for IM v subq for a truly fair comparison. 

Test e mate, when you go on steroidcalc it shows more frequent injections leads to more stable levels, less peaks and troughs. 

Micro dosing does make sense in theory as the human bodies produces test every day  not once a week so more frequent jabs would be beneficial in theory even though long esters are can be done once a week.

Yeah I think its the twice a week dosing, never tried twice a week on trt only recently but sub q.

Only done IM twice a week on a blast

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