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DrRinse

Masteron and controlling Tren Sides

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Has anyone tried a simple test / tren cycle and compared it to test / tren / mast in relation to tren side effects? Crucially, did you notice a difference in the mental sides when adding in Mast? Yeah, I know, I looking for excuses to run the 3 barely used vials of Tren I have :whistling: 

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Good question...I've only done tren without mast and plan to try TTM when the gyms reopen as I wonder the same...even 300 tren gave me horrendous heartburn / indigestion. Currently run tren / deca / mast and will probably always run mast from now on...

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14 minutes ago, DrRinse said:

Has anyone tried a simple test / tren cycle and compared it to test / tren / mast in relation to tren side effects? Crucially, did you notice a difference in the mental sides when adding in Mast? Yeah, I know, I looking for excuses to run the 3 barely used vials of Tren I have :whistling: 

You will see slot of guys on here doing low test, moderate to high mast and moderate to higher Tren in an effort to alleviate side Effects from tren.

IMO this is the wrong approach.

Personally I feel tren shines best with a good amount of testosterone. More tren isn’t always better. 150-200mg pw will still yield very good results. 
 

In terms of Masteron, regardless of what else is being used I am big proponent of including at almost as a base at between 90-150mg depending on the person.

More has a habit of drying the joints out and the cosmetic effects of a highly androgenic body are somewhat lost of those with more 10% body fat. 
 

For me, ~750mg test, ~90mg mast and 200mg tren (I like enanthate) is a zero side stack. 
 

I have no personally found increasing masteron has any impact on tren sides, especially the sleep and digestive issues that can occur.

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1 minute ago, Bensif said:

You will see slot of guys on here doing low test, moderate to high mast and moderate to higher Tren in an effort to alleviate side Effects from tren.

IMO this is the wrong approach.

Personally I feel tren shines best with a good amount of testosterone. More tren isn’t always better. 150-200mg pw will still yield very good results. 
 

In terms of Masteron, regardless of what else is being used I am big proponent of including at almost as a base at between 90-150mg depending on the person.

More has a habit of drying the joints out and the cosmetic effects of a highly androgenic body are somewhat lost of those with more 10% body fat. 
 

For me, ~750mg test, ~90mg mast and 200mg tren (I like enanthate) is a zero side stack. 
 

I have no personally found increasing masteron has any impact on tren sides, especially the sleep and digestive issues that can occur.

After a long layoff, I did novice 5x5 (which was really 3x5) and ran 125 Test E / 325 Tren E. It was the best cycle in terms of strength gains I'd ever done. Granted, from baseline you're gonna see the most in terms in gains but even comparing it to my first cycle of 500 Test /400 Deca / Dbol kickstart with a PPL routine, it blew it away. Defo Tren was the compound doing the donkey work. I'd like to run it again and I've plenty test hanging around. I'm much happier playing the long game now rather than my old huge-in-a-hurry approach so I'll try a drop to 200 Tren E, cos to me, there's nothing like it, just can't handle the mental sides any more, not at 350mgs /week + anyway.

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4 minutes ago, DrRinse said:

After a long layoff, I did novice 5x5 (which was really 3x5) and ran 125 Test E / 325 Tren E. It was the best cycle in terms of strength gains I'd ever done. Granted, from baseline you're gonna see the most in terms in gains but even comparing it to my first cycle of 500 Test /400 Deca / Dbol kickstart with a PPL routine, it blew it away. Defo Tren was the compound doing the donkey work. I'd like to run it again and I've plenty test hanging around. I'm much happier playing the long game now rather than my old huge-in-a-hurry approach so I'll try a drop to 200 Tren E, cos to me, there's nothing like it, just can't handle the mental sides any more, not at 350mgs /week + anyway.

In that stack, of course tren would have been the compound that increased strength. Tren is actually very effective for this.

But if you compared the strength from say 300mg tren and 750mg test in isolation, I would argue they are roughly equal with test perhaps just taking the edge. The difference with those (for me) is the testosterone is side free (bar water but that’s part of it) where as the tren isn’t.

Whats great is adding tren on top at a dose that doesn’t come with side effects sees further strength increases and slightly improved nutrient partitioning.

When testosterone is lower, I find tren brings a stringy, almost flat look.

At 200mg of tren e you should see all the benefit with less issues. If you do get issues just drop down to 150mg. The thing with tren is the positives aren’t linear; they seem to be on a rather steep bell curve.

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1 minute ago, js77 said:

@Bensif .....so you’re running Mast E at a dose of just circa 100mg per?

Right now masteron prop at 90mg, yes.

This is for no other reason than hormone balance. No AI.

Winstrol at 15mg also works but is not as kind on lipids. Proviron is also an option but I personally don’t find this quite as effective.

This is something I got from Chris Tuttle / Evan Centopani. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bensif said:

In that stack, of course tren would have been the compound that increased strength. Tren is actually very effective for this.

But if you compared the strength from say 300mg tren and 750mg test in isolation, I would argue they are roughly equal with test perhaps just taking the edge. The difference with those (for me) is the testosterone is side free (bar water but that’s part of it) where as the tren isn’t.

Whats great is adding tren on top at a dose that doesn’t come with side effects sees further strength increases and slightly improved nutrient partitioning.

When testosterone is lower, I find tren brings a stringy, almost flat look.

At 200mg of tren e you should see all the benefit with less issues. If you do get issues just drop down to 150mg. The thing with tren is the positives aren’t linear; they seem to be on a rather steep bell curve.

Strength is my main goal with aesthetics secondary to me so it's good to hear your 300 Tren vs 750 Test comparison. So much has changed in my life since just before the layoff - I had a job that involved a lot of physical expenditure, having to eat 5500-6000 calories a day to progress, an amount that did not tally with how I actually looked! I was stressed out of my mind and had a heinous benzo addiction. Now that things are so much different, I've enough Test to try out a 750 / week cycle for comparison.  Like you say, even low dose Tren I believe can really show it's value for money, without losing my marbles.  

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What Bensif says.

In my experience mast negates the sides of 19nor down to practically nothing. The obvious caveat is how much 19nor you are using. I’ve heard a few theories as to why this might be the case. 

I can obviously only comment on the effectiveness of mast based on the dosages I’ve used. In all instances I used 200mg of mast with either nandrolone at no more that 400 or tren at no more than 225, plus test anywhere between 125 and 300. Excluding masteron itself, I don’t exceed half a gram-ish of whatever I’m using.

 

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1 minute ago, Sasnak said:

What Bensif says.

In my experience mast negates the sides of 19nor down to practically nothing. The obvious caveat is how much 19nor you are using. I’ve heard a few theories as to why this might be the case. 

I can obviously only comment on the effectiveness of mast based on the dosages I’ve used. In all instances I used 200mg of mast with either nandrolone at no more that 400 or tren at no more than 225, plus test anywhere between 125 and 300. Excluding masteron itself, I don’t exceed half a gram-ish of whatever I’m using.

 

Cool, but could you clarify? I thought Bensif was advocating higher test, moderate 19-nors with minimal Mast, no? What you've described would be closer to my approach - TRT Test, Moderate Tren and Mast.

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So here's my take, in the scenario that makes the biggest difference.

TRT test with like 300-400mg tren is the ideal use case scenario as it keeps total dosages down, which is always the ideal with tren.

If that gives you a total downer you might want to up the test and get to a point where it helps the low feelings as its mood elevator.

In upping the test, you might then experience issues with estrogen mixing with the tren and taking you back to loonie land with ups and down, anger and tears.

Adding mast to the higher test and tren reduces the expression of estrogen and levels stuff out. Masteron also helps with mood a bit.

Edit - also forgot, a lot of people get water retention with tren due to sodium retention and the fact that mega strong androgens tend to make you puffy. Mast helps dry it down and give a better visual look.

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1 minute ago, godsgifttoearth said:

So here's my take, in the scenario that makes the biggest difference.

TRT test with like 300-400mg tren is the ideal use case scenario as it keeps total dosages down, which is always the ideal with tren.

If that gives you a total downer you might want to up the test and get to a point where it helps the low feelings as its mood elevator.

In upping the test, you might then experience issues with estrogen mixing with the tren and taking you back to loonie land with ups and down, anger and tears.

Adding mast to the higher test and tren reduces the expression of estrogen and levels stuff out. Masteron also helps with mood a bit.

Yep got you. Thank you. 

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38 minutes ago, Bensif said:

Right now masteron prop at 90mg, yes.

This is for no other reason than hormone balance. No AI.

Winstrol at 15mg also works but is not as kind on lipids. Proviron is also an option but I personally don’t find this quite as effective.

This is something I got from Chris Tuttle / Evan Centopani. 

 

Just 90mg Drost pw?!

Ive never looked at mast that way. I've used it at high dose....900mg pw of E....but really as a PE. But as I'm now looking at small dose cycles this may be of use.

I found at 900mg it produced almost a 'positive' aggression, if that makes sense....as opposed to 'i hate the world' aggression produced by tren.

The focus and energy it gave in the gym was immense. This was, however, part of a high dose stack in the region of 4g, so that  may also have something to do with it!   

I didn't use an ai (let the flaming begin) and felt amazing at this high dose. Even libido was sky high. 

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5 minutes ago, js77 said:

Just 90mg Drost pw?!

Ive never looked at mast that way. I've used it at high dose....900mg pw of E....but really as a PE. But as I'm now looking at small dose cycles this may be of use.

I found at 900mg it produced almost a 'positive' aggression, if that makes sense....as opposed to 'i hate the world' aggression produced by tren.

The focus and energy it gave in the gym was immense. This was, however, part of a high dose stack in the region of 4g, so that  may also have something to do with it!   

I didn't use an ai (let the flaming begin) and felt amazing at this high dose. Even libido was sky high. 

I flirted with Mast at about 100mgs / week just to see what it did on top of a TRT test dose and my cardio was incredible. Granted, I haven't weight trained in ages but from pure cardio performance and with no attention paid to diet macros other than a calorie deficit, the difference was there in the time, effort and calories burnt figures.  

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1 minute ago, js77 said:

Just 90mg Drost pw?!

Ive never looked at mast that way. I've used it at high dose....900mg pw of E....but really as a PE. But as I'm now looking at small dose cycles this may be of use.

I found at 900mg it produced almost a 'positive' aggression, if that makes sense....as opposed to 'i hate the world' aggression produced by tren.

The focus and energy it gave in the gym was immense. This was, however, part of a high dose stack in the region of 4g, so that  may also have something to do with it!   

I didn't use an ai (let the flaming begin) and felt amazing at this high dose. Even libido was sky high. 

Dosage is an individual thing based on the person and amount of testosterone being used.

For many anything over 500mg starts destroying joints and worse still, for some their hair line. I personally only get joint issues.

But then you rarely see masteron being used in high doses unless it’s comp prep. Any other time mg is being pushed I’d favour other compounds over masteron in terms of what they can do as hole.

For me masteron is always in. I will raise it if I’m using some form of nandrolone. For many this can offset libido issues as DHT has a far greater binding affinity than DHN.

RE an AI; it isn’t always necessary. It’s only necessary if oestrogen sides simply cannot be controlled by other means. Oestrogen needs to rise if testosterone is elevated.

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28 minutes ago, Bensif said:

 

RE an AI; it isn’t always necessary. It’s only necessary if oestrogen sides simply cannot be controlled by other means. Oestrogen needs to rise if testosterone is elevated.

I don’t know where this trend of ‘having’ to Include an ai to a cycle, regardless, came from.

There was post on here earlier this week, where someone was posting their first cycle of 500mg of test pw. One of the posts suggested running .5 of adex daily from the outset!!!!!!

Its just bad advice. Personally I only have to look at a box of Adex and I feel suicidal.

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1 minute ago, js77 said:

I don’t know where this trend of ‘having’ to Include an ai to a cycle, regardless, came from.

There was post on here earlier this week, where someone was posting their first cycle of 500mg of test pw. One of the posts suggested running .5 of adex daily from the outset!!!!!!

Its just bad advice. Personally I only have to look at a box of Adex and I feel suicidal.

Agreed. If gyno is a concern, use tamox from the outset.

AI use is very much an Internet phenomenon. Don’t get me wrong, they have their place, but they are hugely overused.

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29 minutes ago, js77 said:

I don’t know where this trend of ‘having’ to Include an ai to a cycle, regardless, came from.

There was post on here earlier this week, where someone was posting their first cycle of 500mg of test pw. One of the posts suggested running .5 of adex daily from the outset!!!!!!

Its just bad advice. Personally I only have to look at a box of Adex and I feel suicidal.

Because there's 2 sides to the argument, one of which is quoting the cardio and lioid protective effects of estrogen with test in fairly normal ranges and also that its the test:estrogen ratio that is ultimately important. This is fair enough when everything is within normal ranges, there is  other to support this in supraphysiological doses.

Now, if we do want to play the whole ratio card, then there is a point where more test doesn't give more proportional estrogen, so this would technically be the cut off point for estrogen being protective. Outside of this golden zone, the androgens do as they please.

One thing that isn't widely discussed however is that PSAs are only expressed in the presence of SHBG and estrogen. Estrogen is also a growth factor for prostate hypertrophy with androgens. Along with gyno, there is also some suggestion that once estrogen hits that limit where it is proportional to test, everything there after may contribute to cardiac hypertrophy, although this is sketchy and only in a few rat studies.

Next issue is that any cardio protective effects of estrogen go out the window when you add in other androgens.

So really, you either use test only for life at about 600mg/week with no AI and hope you dont get gyno, or you accept that AI or not, the dosing you're using is so far beyond normal that nothing is protecting anything, so use an AI to keep estrogen in normal ranges to avoid excessive BPH, risk of gyno, mood swings, grease, potential ED, water retention and bloating.

I prefer to keep my doses lower and my estrogen in normal ranges. Looking at bloods from a recent experiment, I think test+eq is the way forward as the EQ doesnt can control my e2 without having the same impact on IGF and LDL 

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37 minutes ago, Bensif said:

Agreed. If gyno is a concern, use tamox from the outset.

AI use is very much an Internet phenomenon. Don’t get me wrong, they have their place, but they are hugely overused.

see, this is as much of a phallacy as the argument you're presenting. They both do the same thing. You can f**k yourself just as much witb nolva as you can with arimidex, you just need way more nolva.

You're either preventing expression at the receptor by blocking it, or reducing expression at the receptor by lowering the circulating substrate. Neither is inheritently better. Tamoxifen also has some unique toxicity if its own to consider 

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2 hours ago, DrRinse said:

Cool, but could you clarify? I thought Bensif was advocating higher test, moderate 19-nors with minimal Mast, no? What you've described would be closer to my approach - TRT Test, Moderate Tren and Mast.

Nothing wrong with what Bensif says. All user specific “suck it and see”  All I’m saying from experience is that 150 test 225 tren and 200 mast gives me minimal sides. Mainly I sweat more. If I up the test to 300 I get more tren sides. More sweating, lucid dreams and don’t always feel great. I’m a great believer in less can be more these days. I am knocking on a bit though (47)

I’m finished with 600 test alone. I get less sides with trt test plus 225 tren ace and 200 mast or trt test with 300 nandrolone and 200 mast. I find that running 200 mast with 600 test causes water retention and acne in me. Lower dose test with mast plus a 19nor I find better than 2 mil of test. Mast helps with that too but higher test bloats me and gives me spots.

Others will respond differently.

Assuuming you are not massive low test, 150 to 300 test base. 200 mast and 200 tren. Hardly any sides  and great strength increases. Sub the tren for nandrolone and you will get physically bigger but not as strong. 

That’s my experience anyway.

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24 minutes ago, godsgifttoearth said:

 

So really, you either use test only for life at about 600mg/week with no AI and hope you dont get gyno, or you accept that AI or not, the dosing you're using is so far beyond normal that nothing is protecting anything, so use an AI to keep estrogen in normal ranges to avoid excessive BPH, risk of gyno, mood swings, grease, potential ED, water retention and bloating.

 

Ok, so in conclusion ai is important if you want to keep BP, gyno, mood, greasy skin and bloat in check?

At over 2g of test I suffer none of the above, however 600mg of EQ and my RBC counts elevates to the extent I feel my head is going to explode and I feel absolutely terrible.

Am I missing something re ai mate?

BTW I’m being serious...I have VERY little knowledge concerning ai. Nolva and Proviron were the go-to oestrogen management meds of choice years ago and as I always considered oestrogen to not be an issue I’ve never bothered really looking into using ai’s.

Having said that, a couple of years ago on a 3g cycle I did decide to try Adex for no apparent reason other than all the criticism I was getting on ukm for running  such a high dose with no ai......at .25 Adex 3 x pw  I felt awful....lethargy, moody etc bad just generally ‘down’....needless to say it was the first and last time !!

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23 minutes ago, Sasnak said:

Nothing wrong with what Bensif says. All user specific “suck it and see”  All I’m saying from experience is that 150 test 225 tren and 200 mast gives me minimal sides. Mainly I sweat more. If I up the test to 300 I get more tren sides. More sweating, lucid dreams and don’t always feel great. I’m a great believer in less can be more these days. I am knocking on a bit though (47)

I’m finished with 600 test alone. I get less sides with trt test plus 225 tren ace and 200 mast or trt test with 300 nandrolone and 200 mast. I find that running 200 mast with 600 test causes water retention and acne in me. Lower dose test with mast plus a 19nor I find better than 2 mil of test. Mast helps with that too but higher test bloats me and gives me spots.

Others will respond differently.

Assuuming you are not massive low test, 150 to 300 test base. 200 mast and 200 tren. Hardly any sides  and great strength increases. Sub the tren for nandrolone and you will get physically bigger but not as strong. 

That’s my experience anyway.

Thanks for that detailed response. Much appreciated.

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1 hour ago, js77 said:

Ok, so in conclusion ai is important if you want to keep BP, gyno, mood, greasy skin and bloat in check?

At over 2g of test I suffer none of the above, however 600mg of EQ and my RBC counts elevates to the extent I feel my head is going to explode and I feel absolutely terrible.

Am I missing something re ai mate?

BTW I’m being serious...I have VERY little knowledge concerning ai. Nolva and Proviron were the go-to oestrogen management meds of choice years ago and as I always considered oestrogen to not be an issue I’ve never bothered really looking into using ai’s.

Having said that, a couple of years ago on a 3g cycle I did decide to try Adex for no apparent reason other than all the criticism I was getting on ukm for running  such a high dose with no ai......at .25 Adex 3 x pw  I felt awful....lethargy, moody etc bad just generally ‘down’....needless to say it was the first and last time !!

An AI just prevents estrodial being formed. You can block that estrodial from doing anything with a SERM.

AI is most noticeable for those but not necessarily the full picture. No one actually knows for sure. If you have problems with an enlarged prostate, AI is probably a good idea.

With EQ, 200eq to 600 test keeps my estrogen in normal ranges, so it doesn't need much and by RBC isnt that much worse than on anything else. Its worth exploring more as its also an anabolic AI.

Have you had blood work done to ever know what your estrogen is on 3g? In a clinical setting, 1mg/day arimidex will only supress estrogen by 50% in males [1] it works slightly differently with exogenous test and tends to be a bit more potent but less than 1mg per week isn't going to make much dent into 3g of test worth of estrogen.

[1] https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/7/2370/2851045

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