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Rodger100

Trt and fertility

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Afternoon. 

I've been running a 'Trt dosage' myself of 100mg test e for the last 7 months then 4 months ago added hcg 500iu e3d. 

Previous to this is, I'd had 2 sets of bloods done at GP surgery due to explaining fatigue, brain fog, grumpiness lack of strength gains in gym, whilst having a very good diet, rest, good routine etc. 

I'd explained we'd been trying for another baby, we have an 8 year already, for best part of a year then, but with lack of libido I was often not interested or I wouldn't happen. 

Dr agreed to refer me to an NHS endo, but in mean time decided to cancel appointment and go it myself, knowing that me mentioning trying for a child would be pointless for treatment in their eyes. 

Got full medichecks bloods done just before I started hcg and I was high normal which I was happy with?! 

So since then, I'm fun to be around again, libido up, erections up. Can hold things in my head now and feel much younger. I'm leanest I've ever been and feel great, slowing reversing out of diet well. Strength pretty good until lockdown!! 

So forward 7 months, looking in to clomid and hmg, as sperm levels are obviously too low. I saw that Dave palumbo fertility protocol, but have since seen a few other, one of which is on here. 

I'm toying with the idea of reducing the test dose and upping the hcg and introducing clomid, with a view to adding in hmg when I can afford enough to start properly. That stuff is £££?

Also about to book a private fertility test for me, but with covid that's going to be a while I think. 

Would it worth having a break from the hcg and start again with the higher dose after a while with clomid and hopefully hmg by then? Thinking 1000iu hmg m w f, 75ui hmg  tu thur and 25mg Ed to see how I feel? 

What are peoples thoughts please? 

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I don't think clomid will do anything useful when taken while using hcg, as hcg is supressive to your gonadotropins (LH & FSH).   I'd have thought continuing hcg is what you want if you're trying for a baby (and staying on testosterone).  If you're looking to come off completely is when you use clomid, after having let the testosterone clear, and stopping hcg.

Note though - that's just how i understand things, i'm not on trt and i'm not a doctor. Good luck.

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On 29/05/2020 at 9:20 AM, Seppuku71 said:

I don't think clomid will do anything useful when taken while using hcg, as hcg is supressive to your gonadotropins (LH & FSH).   I'd have thought continuing hcg is what you want if you're trying for a baby (and staying on testosterone).  If you're looking to come off completely is when you use clomid, after having let the testosterone clear, and stopping hcg.

Note though - that's just how i understand things, i'm not on trt and i'm not a doctor. Good luck.

Thanks for you reply bud.

I was toying with the idea of coming off, but I don't want to return to the crap I felt with low natty T 

100mg EW took me to the high end of normal for total testosterone, but even taking 500 iu hcg E3D doesn't seem to have done much for me. 

Im not sure if its a better idea to remain on, take more HCG per week and start adding in the HMG (when I can get hold of more...), its a catch 22, my wife and I are getting a bit down now with nothing happening, yes overthinking and stressing about it wont be helping but been trying to research for quite a while.

 

If I did come off how likely is my natty level going to come back up, with clomid and Hcg (guessing HMG does nothing for test, just sperm?)

 

What sort of levels of HCG cause desentivity? would it be best to stop it few weeks then start again with higher dosage?

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Do you know if your original low test was due to low LH/FSH (so secondary hypogonadism) or due to unresponsive gonads (so primary)?  If you're primary, you might struggle whatever you do, still worth a go though.  I'd have 'thought' hmg would be what you really needed most to get you fertile, as it mimics FSH.  As to your natty test coming back, from what i've read there's no way to predict as everyone's different.  Only way of finding out is to try.  You'd need to obviously stop the testosterone, keep on with the hcg.  After a certain period of time that allows the test-e to have cleared (not sure, think 4 to 6 weeks?), you could check your natty levels from just being on hcg. If good, drop hcg, start clomid (probably around 25mg/day). After another 4 to 6 weeks, blood test again. If levels are good, either stay on clomid till pregnancy achieved, or stop clomid but keep eye on levels.

I'll be honest though mate, i've never done any of this myself (other than use clomid as a test booster). Hopefully some other members will chip in soon with their advice. @Sasnak, any tips for this chap?  Maybe another route would be to come off the test, let your levels crash, and go back and tell the doc you've been trying for a baby for a year, let them deal with it. Good luck either way.

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1 hour ago, Seppuku71 said:

 

Thanks but sorry, I don’t know anything about fertility programs. I had the snip 14 years ago after our second one arrived and I’ve never educated myself about the fertility side of things. I’ve never used clomid either. 

If he has time @CarrotTop might be able to link something he wrote for another user iirc. He has had success with a HMG fertility protocol.  Without a fertility test you are playing blind. I presume you’ve been self administering meds. This obviously causes problems getting help on the nhs unless you are prepared to let all meds leave your system and go and see your gp.

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On 01/06/2020 at 1:10 PM, Seppuku71 said:

Do you know if your original low test was due to low LH/FSH (so secondary hypogonadism) or due to unresponsive gonads (so primary)?  If you're primary, you might struggle whatever you do, still worth a go though.  I'd have 'thought' hmg would be what you really needed most to get you fertile, as it mimics FSH.  As to your natty test coming back, from what i've read there's no way to predict as everyone's different.  Only way of finding out is to try.  You'd need to obviously stop the testosterone, keep on with the hcg.  After a certain period of time that allows the test-e to have cleared (not sure, think 4 to 6 weeks?), you could check your natty levels from just being on hcg. If good, drop hcg, start clomid (probably around 25mg/day). After another 4 to 6 weeks, blood test again. If levels are good, either stay on clomid till pregnancy achieved, or stop clomid but keep eye on levels.

I'll be honest though mate, i've never done any of this myself (other than use clomid as a test booster). Hopefully some other members will chip in soon with their advice. @Sasnak, any tips for this chap?  Maybe another route would be to come off the test, let your levels crash, and go back and tell the doc you've been trying for a baby for a year, let them deal with it. Good luck either way.

Hi mate, first test my LH was 2.3 IU/L and FSH 6.7 IU/L.

So I would keep on with HCG at same dosage and frequency for say 4 weeks after last test e injection? then as you mentioned clomid (I'm unsure about this after hearing worrying things about vision). Can novladex be use instead? At what point would I add HMG?

Im also worried about libido issues as this was one of the propblems before I went on trt...

Im trying to avoid the going back to the doctor route.

 

Thankyou for your help bud

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On 01/06/2020 at 2:30 PM, Sasnak said:

Thanks but sorry, I don’t know anything about fertility programs. I had the snip 14 years ago after our second one arrived and I’ve never educated myself about the fertility side of things. I’ve never used clomid either. 

If he has time @CarrotTop might be able to link something he wrote for another user iirc. He has had success with a HMG fertility protocol.  Without a fertility test you are playing blind. I presume you’ve been self administering meds. This obviously causes problems getting help on the nhs unless you are prepared to let all meds leave your system and go and see your gp.

Yes have been self administering. I agree I need to get a fertility test. Im guessing this is best done now rather than doing a sort of trt pct? Cheers :)

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18 hours ago, Rodger100 said:

Yes have been self administering. I agree I need to get a fertility test. Im guessing this is best done now rather than doing a sort of trt pct? Cheers :)

Depends on how much they cost I guess.

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I have ordered a Dr fertility test anyway see if that gives any indication for starters

If I up dose of hcg When I cease the test-e, is that likely to increase desensitisation? I see these high levels banded about. I've been on 500 iu e3d. 

I've also got some nolva now. In the case of doing a PCT is it either or with clomid (not both?) 

Can hmg be added at any stage along the line? 

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Late to the party, thanks for the mention @Sasnak

@Rodger100 I assume the fertility test you’ve ordered is a blood test, this will likely just be test, LH, FSH etc... which will mostly be suppressed (except test ofc) if you’re taking exogenous testosterone 

look into the YO sperm kit, it’s a home fertility test that connects to your smart phone 

if you have any specific questions feel free. 

But you can achieve what you need whilst staying on test, but HCG alone isn’t always enough, especially if you’ve been on test without any hcg for a good while, I guess what I’m trying to say is, it’s easier to maintain fertility if you started test and hcg together 

Adding clomid whilst on test or hcg and hmg is pointless also, just will not work 

My advice if you want the best chance at success whilst staying on test. 

2000-3000iu hcg a week alongside as much hmg as you can afford, that’s all you need till the job is done 

of course, you could always come off, once test clears, you can just use clomid and/or nolva till the job is done, you don’t need high doses of them either, low doses work very well 

The good thing is you’ve conceived a child before so you clearly had fertility beforehand, so chances are you’ll be fine, try not to overthink it and put too much pressure on yourselves 

Good luck 

 

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15 hours ago, CarrotTop said:

Late to the party, thanks for the mention @Sasnak

@Rodger100 I assume the fertility test you’ve ordered is a blood test, this will likely just be test, LH, FSH etc... which will mostly be suppressed (except test ofc) if you’re taking exogenous testosterone 

look into the YO sperm kit, it’s a home fertility test that connects to your smart phone 

if you have any specific questions feel free. 

But you can achieve what you need whilst staying on test, but HCG alone isn’t always enough, especially if you’ve been on test without any hcg for a good while, I guess what I’m trying to say is, it’s easier to maintain fertility if you started test and hcg together 

Adding clomid whilst on test or hcg and hmg is pointless also, just will not work 

My advice if you want the best chance at success whilst staying on test. 

2000-3000iu hcg a week alongside as much hmg as you can afford, that’s all you need till the job is done 

of course, you could always come off, once test clears, you can just use clomid and/or nolva till the job is done, you don’t need high doses of them either, low doses work very well 

The good thing is you’ve conceived a child before so you clearly had fertility beforehand, so chances are you’ll be fine, try not to overthink it and put too much pressure on yourselves 

Good luck 

 

Hi  thankyou very much for your reply. 

From quite a bit of reading I'd assumed it was going to give me a better chance if I got off the trt and do a PCT, but now you've made me have second thoughts.  I would only be coming off as I thought I'd had too. 

 

I wonder if its just the fact that my dosage if hcg hasn't been substantial enough so far. Regarding what you were asking on the previous message. I've been on trt (self medicating) for 7 months and then added hcg about 4 to 5 months ago so, no I hasn't been hcg from the start. 

I suppose it's worth trying the first suggestion. I would prefer it. I'm gaining quite well with training and generally feel happy and libido is better than it used to be. Admitadly I've not had bloods done since Before going on hcg. 

 

Regarding the fertility test I mentioned it is a Dr fertility male sperm test that basically tells you yes you have 20 million per ml or  more, or no you have less. 

I wish I'd heard about the one you suggested before hand as I've already ordered bit no haha. 

Can dosages as low as 37.5 mg of hmg be of any use? And dose high dose hcg not cause desensitivoty to the cells in the testes? 

 

Sorry still learning ?

 

Many thanks! 

 

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1 hour ago, Rodger100 said:

Hi  thankyou very much for your reply. 

From quite a bit of reading I'd assumed it was going to give me a better chance if I got off the trt and do a PCT, but now you've made me have second thoughts.  I would only be coming off as I thought I'd had too. 

 

I wonder if its just the fact that my dosage if hcg hasn't been substantial enough so far. Regarding what you were asking on the previous message. I've been on trt (self medicating) for 7 months and then added hcg about 4 to 5 months ago so, no I hasn't been hcg from the start. 

I suppose it's worth trying the first suggestion. I would prefer it. I'm gaining quite well with training and generally feel happy and libido is better than it used to be. Admitadly I've not had bloods done since Before going on hcg. 

 

Regarding the fertility test I mentioned it is a Dr fertility male sperm test that basically tells you yes you have 20 million per ml or  more, or no you have less. 

I wish I'd heard about the one you suggested before hand as I've already ordered bit no haha. 

Can dosages as low as 37.5 mg of hmg be of any use? And dose high dose hcg not cause desensitivoty to the cells in the testes? 

 

Sorry still learning ?

 

Many thanks! 

 

You need FSH in a good range for it to work tbh mate. 150iu hmg put me at 3 ish FSH 24 hours after a shot 

Read some fertility studies. Hcg is used in doses up to 10,000 iu for many months so don’t worry about desensitisation of the leydig cells too much 

If you’re going down that route, then give yourself the best chance possible, skimping on the main thing in fertility(FSH, in this case, HMG is not wise)

Other wise you may as well come off gear and do it naturally. Will just likely take longer, but it will certainly be cheaper lol 

 

i used 150iu hmg 3-5x weekly along with 1000iu hcg also 3x weekly 

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Also, remember this....

2 things need to happen for sperm production,  ITT which is intratesticular testosterone, this comes from your natural LH, or in your case currently, HCG, HCG mimics LH

Then you need stimulation for the Sertoli cells, these produce sperm, this comes from FSH/HMG

One without the other isn’t an ideal place to be in

HCG will give you ITT, but with no FSH, sperm production will be difficult 

If you only ran HMG without HCG, again with no ITT from LH/HCG, sperm production would be compromised 

 

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@CarrotTop Im sorry to hijack the thread. I have been on TRT since last october, been running hcg the whole time at 1000-1500 weekly to keep fertility. Since i tend to aromatise more with the doses im running right now, i was thinking of lowering to a total of 750iu weekly, 250iu 3 times a week.

Does that seem like a sensible dose to mantain fertility? Given that i have been on it the whole time since i started taking testosterone.

I was thinking of runnin 750 iu weekly right now and come the time we want to try for a second child, maybe double the dose for a start and go from there.

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48 minutes ago, Djibril said:

@CarrotTop Im sorry to hijack the thread. I have been on TRT since last october, been running hcg the whole time at 1000-1500 weekly to keep fertility. Since i tend to aromatise more with the doses im running right now, i was thinking of lowering to a total of 750iu weekly, 250iu 3 times a week.

Does that seem like a sensible dose to mantain fertility? Given that i have been on it the whole time since i started taking testosterone.

I was thinking of runnin 750 iu weekly right now and come the time we want to try for a second child, maybe double the dose for a start and go from there.

You can certainly give it a go. I’d look at other options first though if there are any

What are your symptoms exactly? And e2 levels on that?

Also what is your trt dose?

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5 hours ago, CarrotTop said:

You can certainly give it a go. I’d look at other options first though if there are any

What are your symptoms exactly? And e2 levels on that?

Also what is your trt dose?

Other options like what exactly? Im using proviron as well which is supposed to help with sperm quality.

Not crazy symptoms, my trt dose is 160 mgs of test weekly. With that dose my E2 is slightly over the normal range and i dont take an AI.

When i tried 250mgs it was double the higher range and i had extremely oily skin and bloating which was sorted with aromasin.

I could keep the 1500 iu dose and just use aromasin like im doing right now

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4 hours ago, Djibril said:

Other options like what exactly? Im using proviron as well which is supposed to help with sperm quality.

Not crazy symptoms, my trt dose is 160 mgs of test weekly. With that dose my E2 is slightly over the normal range and i dont take an AI.

When i tried 250mgs it was double the higher range and i had extremely oily skin and bloating which was sorted with aromasin.

I could keep the 1500 iu dose and just use aromasin like im doing right now

So you’re just going off numbers then

if you feel fine why bother changing it? If you’re jabbing 160mg a week, im guessing your test is above normal range?

E2 being slightly above is to be expected and unless causing bad sides I see no reason to worry 

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16 minutes ago, CarrotTop said:

So you’re just going off numbers then

if you feel fine why bother changing it? If you’re jabbing 160mg a week, im guessing your test is above normal range?

E2 being slightly above is to be expected and unless causing bad sides I see no reason to worry 

160 mgs weekly, 80mgs monday morning, thursdat night.

Morning bloodwork has my total T at 7.5 ona a range of  2-10

 

For my TRT im ok with the e2 actually, just thinking of when i do my first blast with 500 mg test, perhaps im just over complicating.

Will adjust AI dose as needed  and leave the hcg as it is

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On 27/05/2020 at 2:55 PM, Rodger100 said:

Afternoon. 

I've been running a 'Trt dosage' myself of 100mg test e for the last 7 months then 4 months ago added hcg 500iu e3d. 

Previous to this is, I'd had 2 sets of bloods done at GP surgery due to explaining fatigue, brain fog, grumpiness lack of strength gains in gym, whilst having a very good diet, rest, good routine etc. 

I'd explained we'd been trying for another baby, we have an 8 year already, for best part of a year then, but with lack of libido I was often not interested or I wouldn't happen. 

Dr agreed to refer me to an NHS endo, but in mean time decided to cancel appointment and go it myself, knowing that me mentioning trying for a child would be pointless for treatment in their eyes. 

Got full medichecks bloods done just before I started hcg and I was high normal which I was happy with?! 

So since then, I'm fun to be around again, libido up, erections up. Can hold things in my head now and feel much younger. I'm leanest I've ever been and feel great, slowing reversing out of diet well. Strength pretty good until lockdown!! 

So forward 7 months, looking in to clomid and hmg, as sperm levels are obviously too low. I saw that Dave palumbo fertility protocol, but have since seen a few other, one of which is on here. 

I'm toying with the idea of reducing the test dose and upping the hcg and introducing clomid, with a view to adding in hmg when I can afford enough to start properly. That stuff is £££?

Also about to book a private fertility test for me, but with covid that's going to be a while I think. 

Would it worth having a break from the hcg and start again with the higher dose after a while with clomid and hopefully hmg by then? Thinking 1000iu hmg m w f, 75ui hmg  tu thur and 25mg Ed to see how I feel? 

What are peoples thoughts please? 

Are you Asian?

Guys seem to worry about this (and rightly so i guess) but testosterone has been used since the 70's for contraception and there have many trials.

All trials point to it being ineffective, except in about 65% of Asian males, it does not work as a contraceptive in western males.

99.9% of western guys who have used high doses for years still manage to conceive.

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48 minutes ago, stargazer said:

Are you Asian?

Guys seem to worry about this (and rightly so i guess) but testosterone has been used since the 70's for contraception and there have many trials.

All trials point to it being ineffective, except in about 65% of Asian males, it does not work as a contraceptive in western males.

99.9% of western guys who have used high doses for years still manage to conceive.

No not Asian, bud

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2 hours ago, stargazer said:

Then my advice would be to stop worrying so much and enjoy being back to normal.

You've lost me mate. Back to normal? As far as I'm concerned I'm currently infertile... 

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Well, Spent that last 9 weeks on clomid and it wasn't great to be fair. I didn't realise it at the time for a while but it contributed quite a lot to my anxiety. I suffered terrible at work a lot and it made me realise I don't want to work there anymore. 

We still haven't conceived yet but here are my results from my bloods from last week. 

I'm awaiting results of a semen sample I'm having tested through the NHS - they are taking their time getting me the results which I guess is understandable at present. 

I've also gone back on self treated trt with hcg from beginning this time, a week on I feel so much better. 

 

Hope this keeps things ticking over until I can afford to get enough hmg to really attack this. 

 

Other than total T, do these bloods look OK? Esp LH and fsh

Screenshot_20201030_151034_com.android.chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20201030_151115_com.android.chrome.jpg

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2 hours ago, Rodger100 said:

Well, Spent that last 9 weeks on clomid and it wasn't great to be fair. I didn't realise it at the time for a while but it contributed quite a lot to my anxiety. I suffered terrible at work a lot and it made me realise I don't want to work there anymore. 

We still haven't conceived yet but here are my results from my bloods from last week. 

I'm awaiting results of a semen sample I'm having tested through the NHS - they are taking their time getting me the results which I guess is understandable at present. 

I've also gone back on self treated trt with hcg from beginning this time, a week on I feel so much better. 

 

Hope this keeps things ticking over until I can afford to get enough hmg to really attack this. 

 

Other than total T, do these bloods look OK? Esp LH and fsh

Screenshot_20201030_151034_com.android.chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20201030_151115_com.android.chrome.jpg

Well the clomid definitely worked then based on those current LH and FSH levels.. if you’re trying to conceive, go get busy with the missus right now lol. Problem is, if you’re jumping back on TRT as you’ve said you are, you’re gona suppress those levels again massively (if you haven’t Done so already). Unsure of how much HCG you’re currently running ... Keep trying would be my advice and good luck :)

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On 05/11/2020 at 12:19 AM, Pez189 said:

Well the clomid definitely worked then based on those current LH and FSH levels.. if you’re trying to conceive, go get busy with the missus right now lol. Problem is, if you’re jumping back on TRT as you’ve said you are, you’re gona suppress those levels again massively (if you haven’t Done so already). Unsure of how much HCG you’re currently running ... Keep trying would be my advice and good luck :)

Hi mate. I've been running 750iu 3 times a week which is a lot less than some but others say it's way too much. 

Got  the semen analysis results back and either I'm a phenomenal failure or they have f**ked the test up. Note the semen test was done before I went back on trt) and that my LH and fsh looked look around same time. 

Doctor was next to useless on phone. Clown. He also failed to mention what I've since noticed, toward the bottom of the test text:-

 

28-Oct-2020

! Infertility studies - (SGB) - Abnormal - see patient task

 

 

 

 

Semen sample volume

2.5

ml

>1.50ml

 

Semen pH

8

 

>7.20

 

! Total sperm count

<2.0

x10*6/ml

>15.00x10*6/ml

 

! Progressively Motile

<4

%

>32.00%

 

Non progressive

0

%

 

 

Immotile

0

%

 

 

! Sperm morphology

0

%

>4.00%

 

Semen viscosity

 

 

 

 

Liquefaction incomplete.

 

White Cells

 

 

 

 

>1x106/ml     (Normal range <1*10*6/ml)

 

This is an automated test, we cannot give accurate sperm

 

concentration, motility or morphology results on low sperm

 

concentrations. >2x10\S\6/ml

 

Sample received more than two hours after production, please treat

 

results with caution and consider repeat. Please ensure subsequent

 

andrology specimens are delivered to the Histopathology Department,

 

New Path Lab RLI within two hours of production Monday to Friday

 

8.30-4.00

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