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MickeyE

Why are all these old people dying in care homes

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4 minutes ago, sean m said:

Eventhough it's my mum and I love her.  If I comes down to their are 2 people  need a resperator  to stay alive one younger maybe with a young family and another 40 years to live  or a older person with maybe 5 or 10 years to go.  The choice is clear.  Hard but clear. 

This is the situation in a nutshell.

 

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3 minutes ago, sean m said:

My 80 year old mother lives in sheltered housing. Basically a  block of flats for old people with a warden who has no medical training.  She messaged me yesterday saying they have been told if they have symptoms of the virus they are to let the warden know and not come out of their flat. And they are  not going to be taken to hospital . And to only expect to talk to a Dr on the phone. 

 Now like most of what old people in her position tell you it may well be a misunderstanding  or a single resident has started a roomer that's getting blown out of proportion. 

BUT ... 

Eventhough it's my mum and I love her.  If I comes down to their are 2 people  need a resperator  to stay alive one younger maybe with a young family and another 40 years to live  or a older person with maybe 5 or 10 years to go.  The choice is clear.  Hard but clear. 

If the bolded is actually the case I think that's a disgrace. 

The studies done on this thing suggest that even those 80+ have around an 80% chance of survival. To just abandon them is not good enough IMO.

They have these newly built nightingale hospitals dotted around the country that are all aparently sitting nearly empty, with tons of ICU beds.

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13 minutes ago, Mingster said:

Indeed.

I'll refrain from commenting on your posts from this point on. Just as I would with any other troll.

To ask the question why so many are apparently dying in care homes without getting emergency care and to question whether its right is trolling?

Ok mate.

TBH going on your recent responses to the posts of mine you've quoted, id say you are trolling me. Unwittingly though no doubt.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

If the bolded is actually the case I think that's a disgrace. 

The studies done on this thing suggest that even those 80+ have around an 80% chance of survival. To just abandon them is not good enough IMO.

They have these newly built nightingale hospitals dotted around the country that are all aparently sitting nearly empty, with tons of ICU beds.

While ever the NHS has spare capacity, the staffing levels required AND PPE, I'm inclined to agree with you. If one of those elements is not available, for whatever reason, then very hard, horrible decisions need to be made sadly.  

Beds, ventilators, volunteers, nurses & doctors are clearly vital, but there's already a worldwide shortage of PPE. That very much could be one reason.

FWIW, there are plenty of stories of elderly patients coming out of hospital after battling the virus and winning, so it clearly isn't a hard and fast rule that if you're over 80 (or any arbitrary number) you won't be taken in to hospital. 

None of this is euthanasia. That requires a predetermined decision to end someones life, meaning we would have had to deliberately introduce the virus with the sole purpose of killing the weakest in society (which we did not). This is very much a decision to not act to save. It's horrible, but there's a very clear dividing line, sadly.

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44 minutes ago, Mingster said:

Mickey you'd argue night is day, and it's wearying to listen to.

To answer your initial questions...

Old people die in care homes for the same reasons they die anywhere else: they are old, and invariably have underlying medical conditions.

They are not being admitted into hospitals because hospitals often won't accept people over 80 with Covid as the beds are better utilized with people more likely to recover. In addition, as @Kazza61 commented earlier care homes are often better suited to caring for these patients, not least because the carer to patient ratio is so much higher. Nursing and care homes are set up to look after sick people, and their levels of palliative care are often higher than a hospital.

Residents in homes have also been asked to sign DNR forms in case they catch the virus. At the same time they are asked would they prefer to stay at their nursing home or be admitted into hospital. IME most prefer to stay at the home. This may sound odd, but they are in familiar surroundings with people they know. This is preferable to many rather than be in hospital and be cared for by strangers which they see a couple of times a day.

Yes, staff in  homes see that these people are sick. They do not ring 999 for an ambulance, they follow guidelines and ring 111. If the patient is then diagnosed to have Covid the next step is determined by the above.

It's not really how society treats old people, it's the old people themselves who generally make these decisions.

 

So old people don't deserve treatment because they are 80+ These people paid there taxes and duties like everyone else. Worked there entire life and now when they need help the Government gives them the middle finger? They are entitled to life just as much as any younger person. Just goes to show how selfish and self-centered a society we have became.. It is said of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treat's it's weakest members and I'm afraid society of today is failing badly. 

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1 minute ago, Lowkii said:

So old people don't deserve treatment because they are 80+ These people paid there taxes and duties like everyone else. Worked there entire life and now when they need help the Government gives them the middle finger? They are entitled to life just as much as any younger person. Just goes to show how selfish and self-centered a society we have became.. It is said of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treat's it's weakest members and I'm afraid society of today is failing badly. 

The post you've quoted does not represent my views. These are the processes put in place by the NHS.

80 year olds are entitled to the same treatment as anybody else. If a doctor is faced with the choice of saving an 80 year old or a 20 year old, however, it's not an enviable position to be in.

The fact about nursing/care homes is that a large proportion of the residents have requested to remain there rather than be treated in hospital.

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First of all we need to put the figure into perspective.

Care homes are designed to offer end of life care, you might be surprised how many people pass away in one each year.

Nearly 100k people die in care homes each year, and that's just in England. About 29k of them who are residents but get taken to hospital due to illness also pass. So that's 129k each year as a standard, and only in England......

You need to stop just looking at the media figure and thinking it's something nuts, and although it's not good it's not much more than what would happen on a bad flu season. 

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1 hour ago, Lowkii said:

So old people don't deserve treatment because they are 80+ These people paid there taxes and duties like everyone else. Worked there entire life and now when they need help the Government gives them the middle finger? They are entitled to life just as much as any younger person. Just goes to show how selfish and self-centered a society we have became.. It is said of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treat's it's weakest members and I'm afraid society of today is failing badly. 

 

19 minutes ago, Tonysco said:

First of all we need to put the figure into perspective.

Care homes are designed to offer end of life care, you might be surprised how many people pass away in one each year.

Nearly 100k people die in care homes each year, and that's just in England. About 29k of them who are residents but get taken to hospital due to illness also pass. So that's 129k each year as a standard, and only in England......

You need to stop just looking at the media figure and thinking it's something nuts, and although it's not good it's not much more than what would happen on a bad flu season. 

Good posts.

The problem is there is so much conflicting information.

I saw the Mat Hancock character saying around 10 days ago that NHS death figs did not include those that died at home or in care homes. But he didn't think those numbers would be very high and wouldn't  drastically change the overall  figs.

Fast forward a bit more than a week and the media are now saying 4000+ could have died in care homes, which is obviously a very large proportion of all CV deaths. Then apparently "Care England" are estimating 1000 have died in care homes. 

So god knows what the actual figs are.

I think this virus has highlighted a general lack of transparency within the NHS and wider healthcare system.

If one positive can from this virus it's that the care home system is beyond abysmal and is desperate need of reform. 

A lot of these private care homes are charging between 1k-2k per week, whilst paying their staff minimum wage.

No disrespect to care home staff but what do expect when you pay people a pittance to a job that is so demanding.

 

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3 hours ago, MickeyE said:

They're saying in the news that possibly 4000+ old people have died of covid 19 in care homes.

Question is, why are these people not being admitted to hospital?

In direct response to the OP, many are being admitted to hospital....but are then released back to care homes for end of life care.

A member of my family was admitted to hospital with symptoms of c-virus about three weeks ago. They pumped her with antibiotics, did a c-virus test and packed her back off to her nursing home after 5 days (incidentally, before the results of the test had come back).

Test results came back positive. She's being cremated a week on Friday. 

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1 minute ago, spod said:

In direct response to the OP, many are being admitted to hospital....but are then released back to care homes for end of life care.

A member of my family was admitted to hospital with symptoms of c-virus about three weeks ago. They pumped her with antibiotics, did a c-virus test and packed her back off to her nursing home after 5 days (incidentally, before the results of the test had come back).

Test results came back positive. She's being cremated a week on Friday. 

Very sorry to hear that mate.

I think it's a very far from adequate situation if people who may still be positive (as in your relative's case) are being sent from hospital back to care homes where they may infect other vulnerbles. 

Mind boggling the thought process that's behind these sorts of policies. 

 

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1 hour ago, MickeyE said:

I think this virus has highlighted a general lack of transparency within the NHS and wider healthcare system.

If one positive can from this virus it's that the care home system is beyond abysmal and is desperate need of reform. 

I don't think its the lack of transparency really that muddying up the figures, i think it's the lack of testing.

There are loads of viruses out there that cause similar symptoms to covid, stuff like influenza (two types), other coronaviruses, (7 in total i think?) as well as others.

They obviously havent went away just because covid-19 as appeared, but now since its so popular its not unreasonble to think that doctors will diagnose patients with it simply because they're showing similar symptoms. 

Remember that a lot of patients "diagnosed" with covid-19, and been included in the official figure, haven't had any form of test done....

Agree that the care system has been on its arrse for years.

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1 hour ago, MickeyE said:

Very sorry to hear that mate.

I think it's a very far from adequate situation if people who may still be positive (as in your relative's case) are being sent from hospital back to care homes where they may infect other vulnerbles. 

Mind boggling the thought process that's behind these sorts of policies. 

 

Thank you, mate.

We were as bemused as you are when we were told that she had been sent back to the nursing home before the results were back in.

She was my mum in law so i was only related by marriage. Obviously the wife and her siblings are cut up about it all but since i'm not a blood relation, i can afford a certain degree of pragmatism.

I'm guessing the hospital's thought process might be that since she caught it in the care home, sending her back there isn't introducing the virus to a place where it didn't exist before. Care homes are set up for end of life care so if patients are on their way to the other side, they may as well pass on in familiar surroundings, with carers they know,  who can look after them, administer pain medication where appropriate, and make them as comfortable as possible etc.

As bad as this is, the alternative would be to die, alone, in a hospital bed surrounded by strangers.

It's a bad situation, and we can all be critical, but if you can think of a sensible, practicable alternative, i'd like to hear your thoughts.

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59 minutes ago, spod said:

Thank you, mate.

We were as bemused as you are when we were told that she had been sent back to the nursing home before the results were back in.

She was my mum in law so i was only related by marriage. Obviously the wife and her siblings are cut up about it all but since i'm not a blood relation, i can afford a certain degree of pragmatism.

I'm guessing the hospital's thought process might be that since she caught it in the care home, sending her back there isn't introducing the virus to a place where it didn't exist before. Care homes are set up for end of life care so if patients are on their way to the other side, they may as well pass on in familiar surroundings, with carers they know,  who can look after them, administer pain medication where appropriate, and make them as comfortable as possible etc.

As bad as this is, the alternative would be to die, alone, in a hospital bed surrounded by strangers.

It's a bad situation, and we can all be critical, but if you can think of a sensible, practicable alternative, i'd like to hear your thoughts.

RE the first bolded. After just doing a bit of reading it appears the government are instructing hospitals to send those like your poor mother in law back to care homes regardless whether they are still positive or not.

It beggars belief that we are being told to shield the most vulnerable groups and are on a blanket lockdown.

When the government is actually implementing policies that do the comple opposite of shielding vulnerable groups.

2nd bolded. I think the current regulations for these care homes needs to be looked at . Perhaps profits need to be capped and the care homes forced into putting more of their profits back into improving the quality of care.

I just read that on average super market staff are paid more than care home staff.

No disrespect to super market workers, but something is amiss with that.

As for the point about people preferring to die in care homes than hospitals. I fully get that.

I have an Aunty that lives around the corner from me, she's 89 and has suffered several strokes. Amazingly she's still of quite sound mind although her mobility is very limited. 

She has carers that come into her twice a day. Which costs a fortune. She's a person that was very responsible throughout her life, has savings, a good private pension and owns her own home. But she's quite quickly going through her savings paying for this.

She's at the point where really she needs to have full time care. Since this Covid sh1t started I've had to go and get her up off the floor after falling trying to go to the toilet. Not ideal when shes also meant to be shielding as much as poss.

But she's such an independent old goat it would kill her putting her into an old peoples home. At present we're trying to arrange for the council to send an occupational therapist in to see if some modifications can be done to her house to help her. It's heat breaking seeing such a proud lady reduced to being in the situation she's in.

There's quite a lot of articles regarding the vast profits some of these care homes are making 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://inews.co.uk/news/health/care-home-operators-billions-pounds-profits-hedge-funds-920264%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwjN07LmyPLoAhXfURUIHRLnCLAQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0TAxkCgr5I52VwSmhuxxUr&ampcf=1

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49 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

RE the first bolded. After just doing a bit of reading it appears the government are instructing hospitals to send those like your poor mother in law back to care homes regardless whether they are still positive or not.

It beggars belief that we are being told to shield the most vulnerable groups and are on a blanket lockdown.

When the government is actually implementing policies that do the comple opposite of shielding vulnerable groups.

2nd bolded. I think the current regulations for these care homes needs to be looked at . Perhaps profits need to be capped and the care homes forced into putting more of their profits back into improving the quality of care.

I just read that on average super market staff are paid more than care home staff.

No disrespect to super market workers, but something is amiss with that.

As for the point about people preferring to die in care homes than hospitals. I fully get that.

I have an Aunty that lives around the corner from me, she's 89 and has suffered several strokes. Amazingly she's still of quite sound mind although her mobility is very limited. 

She has carers that come into her twice a day. Which costs a fortune. She's a person that was very responsible throughout her life, has savings, a good private pension and owns her own home. But she's quite quickly going through her savings paying for this.

She's at the point where really she needs to have full time care. Since this Covid sh1t started I've had to go and get her up off the floor after falling trying to go to the toilet. Not ideal when shes also meant to be shielding as much as poss.

But she's such an independent old goat it would kill her putting her into an old peoples home. At present we're trying to arrange for the council to send an occupational therapist in to see if some modifications can be done to her house to help her. It's heat breaking seeing such a proud lady reduced to being in the situation she's in.

There's quite a lot of articles regarding the vast profits some of these care homes are making 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://inews.co.uk/news/health/care-home-operators-billions-pounds-profits-hedge-funds-920264%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwjN07LmyPLoAhXfURUIHRLnCLAQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0TAxkCgr5I52VwSmhuxxUr&ampcf=1

I'm in agreement with much of this, mate.

Trouble is we're in the sh1t now and we've gotta play with the hand we've been dealt. Just playing devil's advocate...if they didn't return elderly patients to their care homes, what should be done with them?

The care sector has evolved into what it is over a number of decades and i'm afraid it will take a similar period of time to improve. This is one industry where i'm totally in favour of renationalisation. Old folks homes need to be of a certain size to take full advantage of economies of scale. It's clear the private sector is too fragmented and simply does not work. It strips the elderly of all their material wealth and doesn't seem to value quality of care as much as profits. If potential residents haven't sufficient funds, councils have to foot the bill......and taxpayer money is simply funnelled into the pockets of care home owners. It's a massive cash cow and it's being milked for all it's worth.

I'm not one for standing on my doorstep clapping for health care workers, but if i was, it wouldn't be doctors and nurses at the forefront of my mind; it'd be the care workers dealing with all this sh1t at the coal face on £8.50 an hour or whatever the minimum wage is now. Again, a nationalised service would allow better training, pay, pensions, staff retention etc. I hope i'm wrong but the cynic in me doubts whether the much needed changes to the industry will ever materialise. 

All the best to you in regards to your aunt.

Stay safe, brother! :thumbup1:

 

 

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Care homes are going out of business at an alarming state. The profit margins are next to none. Councils understandably pay the least they can get away with and care homes just can't make it work. @MickeyE talking about capping profits - the sector is on the verge of collapse. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/11/over-400-care-home-operators-collapse-in-five-years-as-cuts-take-toll

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5 hours ago, spod said:

In direct response to the OP, many are being admitted to hospital....but are then released back to care homes for end of life care.

A member of my family was admitted to hospital with symptoms of c-virus about three weeks ago. They pumped her with antibiotics, did a c-virus test and packed her back off to her nursing home after 5 days (incidentally, before the results of the test had come back).

Test results came back positive. She's being cremated a week on Friday. 

That`s insane and grossly incompetent. 

My sympathy goes out to you and your family.   

It shows how threadbare our health and care system is.

All this championing of the NHS by the very members of parliament that have been cutting funding for years is sickening to hear.

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14 hours ago, spod said:

I'm in agreement with much of this, mate.

Trouble is we're in the sh1t now and we've gotta play with the hand we've been dealt. Just playing devil's advocate...if they didn't return elderly patients to their care homes, what should be done with them?

The care sector has evolved into what it is over a number of decades and i'm afraid it will take a similar period of time to improve. This is one industry where i'm totally in favour of renationalisation. Old folks homes need to be of a certain size to take full advantage of economies of scale. It's clear the private sector is too fragmented and simply does not work. It strips the elderly of all their material wealth and doesn't seem to value quality of care as much as profits. If potential residents haven't sufficient funds, councils have to foot the bill......and taxpayer money is simply funnelled into the pockets of care home owners. It's a massive cash cow and it's being milked for all it's worth.

I'm not one for standing on my doorstep clapping for health care workers, but if i was, it wouldn't be doctors and nurses at the forefront of my mind; it'd be the care workers dealing with all this sh1t at the coal face on £8.50 an hour or whatever the minimum wage is now. Again, a nationalised service would allow better training, pay, pensions, staff retention etc. I hope i'm wrong but the cynic in me doubts whether the much needed changes to the industry will ever materialise. 

All the best to you in regards to your aunt.

Stay safe, brother! :thumbup1:

 

 

Perhaps in the same way as with these nightingale hospitals, they could adapt other buildings to take suspected/CV positive elderly patients being discharged from hospital. IMO taxpayer money would be better spent there than paying fit, young people 80% of their wage to sit at home. It is a difficult one, but sending people back to old people's homes that do/may have the virus just seems absolutely ridiculous and goes against everything the rest of society is being asked to do.

We've all been brought to a standstill while the healthcare system is actively doing things that will spread the virus to the most vulnerable group. 

Not really a fan of re nationalisation but given that apparently 90% of care homes are privately owned, while around half the funding for them comes from the state, I think more state run care homes probably need to be built/bought. 

 

13 hours ago, Kazza61 said:

Care homes are going out of business at an alarming state. The profit margins are next to none. Councils understandably pay the least they can get away with and care homes just can't make it work. @MickeyE talking about capping profits - the sector is on the verge of collapse. 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/11/over-400-care-home-operators-collapse-in-five-years-as-cuts-take-toll

There seems to be quite a lot of conflicting information on this. On one hand as you say it seems that a lot of care home companies are struggling to turn a profit. On the other hand there's quite a bit of info that a good number of providers (especially the bigger ones) are making vast profits and using a myriad of techniques to hide the money and lower tax liabilities. I guess a lot also probably depends on the areas the homes are in. There is apparently a big difference between what the state pays per resident compared to what people paying their own fees are charged. The care homes with more self funded residents making more profits than those with a higher concentration of state funded residents. 

 

"Similarly in the UK, a detailed analysis of the Four Seasons care home chain found “cash extraction tied to opportunistic loading of subsidiaries with debt; and tax avoidance through complex multi-level corporate structures which undermine any kind of accountability for public funding”.9 16. The highly varied and complex nature of some of the large care home companies now operating in the UK and the US means that using this standard measure understates the true profitability of these businesses and fails to capture the true level of leakage from the sector. 17. This is because the complexity and opacity of the company structures allows profit to be extracted in hidden ways, such as through property costs, management fees, and debt repayments."

 "Much of the debt loaded onto the care homes by large for-profit providers is owed to related companies that are often based offshore and at high rates of interest i.e. a form of hidden profit extraction which also avoids tax "

https://chpi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/CHPI-PluggingTheLeaks-Nov19-FINAL.pdf

There's tons of available articles/reports/studies etc 

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In terms of what Matt Hancock has said on care home deaths and figures - he has commented as follows at the nightly press briefing recently:

"Sadly, even in normal times each month about 10,000 people die in care homes, " Matt Hancock 16 April 

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1 hour ago, Kazza61 said:

What do actually do for a job @MickeyE?

For the last 8 years I've run a small courier and dispatch business, 3 permanent staff and I employ sub contractors as and when necessary.

I also own a couple of rental properties which give me a reasonable 2nd income.

What do you do?

37 minutes ago, safc49 said:

@MickeyE are you a medical professional, a scientist? Please post a copy of your qualifications 

No im not. I'm just an inquisitive person that takes an interest in politics/current/world affairs. And I like to do a bit more research on many subjects beyond what is available in the MSM.

I liketo think I'm reasonably good at objectively processing data and information. But you can draw your own conclusion on that.

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5 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

For the last 8 years I've run a small courier and dispatch business, 3 permanent staff and I employ sub contractors as and when necessary.

I also own a couple of rental properties which give me a reasonable 2nd income.

 

All the best scientists are full-time couriers.

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11 minutes ago, Smilez said:

All the best scientists are full-time couriers.

TBH I Tend to do more organising and delegating than actual work in the field these days.(though still do when necessary)

But yeh I like to think I'm up there with the rest of the best UKM experts/scientists! 

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