Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Seppuku71

Stupid idea , or not?

Recommended Posts

I'd appreciate opinions on my situation, and whether or not you think i'd regret following this path.

Age:48. Got first blood tests done  around age 39, through the nhs. Reason for getting tested at that time being just curiosity as i've been a gym rat since around 20 years old and i wanted to know where i was (i had to give gp all the right buzzwords, ie low libido etc to get tested).

1st result through nhs was 12.7nmol/l

I was told to get second test one month later. I took d-aspartic acid for that month, as it was said to raise testosterone:

2nd result came back 9 nmol (so much for daa)

GP sent me to endo who tested again - result came back around 14 nmol, with a letter in the post from him saying i must be relieved that there's no problem (in retrospect, i'd probably now agree). All these tests so far had shown LH around 3 to 4 i think, so mid range (i don't have the paperwork with me as i'm at work hiding)

Fast forward about a year (2011/12), low dose clomid therapy was getting mentioned a lot on the web as an alternative to trt. Sounded a good idea, so i bought some online, started taking it at 12.5mg eod. After several weeks of this, i went back to the gp, begged for a new blood test. This came back at 21 nmol/l. I was happy, as basically, up to this point i was just chasing numbers. I continued with the clomid untill last year (2018) so continuosly for about 6 years, assuming my testosterone would just stay at 21nmol


Around the end of 2016 i started putting on some unwanted weight, getting a bit of a gut on me, with no change in diet or activity level. I noticed i had less stamina than usual during day to day activities, ie, on holiday going for family walks i would get fatiged and struggle to keep up , which was very unlike me. During 2017 i took the occasional proviron as i'd read it was none suppresive. I enjoyed the effects of this, but after some weeks my joints started playing up, knees felt dry and would lock up when trying to squat down etc. I stopped the proviron. Joint problems continued though, and i kept on the clomid, assuming it was still keeping me at around 21nmol.

In 2018 i saw an advert for Medichecks. I bought a basic testosterone test, got an early morning blood draw:
Result: 11.7nmol.
I retook a couple of weeks later, but with LH etc:
Result: 11.7nmol, LH 8

At this point i dropped the clomid and over the next year took several more tests, including the trt one. I got the following results, all with clomid out of my system:

Aug 2018: T 8.68, LH 4.28

Sept 2018: T 7.86, LH 8.4

Oct 2018: T 8.97, LH 4.72

Feb 2019: T 9.52, LH 4.38

June 2019: T 9.67, LH 4.5

In all the tests where i had a calculated free test result, it's been at the bottom of the range or lower. The last one was 0.215 nmol/l, the others roughly the same.

So now it's October. Symptoms wise, i get all over body aches, especially first thing in the morning. Poor concentration, brain fog, low motivation, Stamina in the gym, it just isn't there. A couple of years ago i without fail trained three times a week, full body workouts, always progressing. I remember during that time taking my kids to Blackpool, there all day, pleasure beach, arcades etc. Left around 10pm, drove back home, in my gym at midnight squatting, bags of energy. Now, i struggle to get through twice weekly workouts, sometimes once, and i couldn't do that now as i described above after a long day out. I'm getting older, i know. But.....is it testosterone related?

I've got myself two years worth of ugl test e at home, and can easily get more. I don't want to bother the nhs again, been there, done that. Every day when i get out of bed, every time i'm at work and find myself leaning against things because i'm tired, and every time i'm in my gym and realise i'm doing half what i did two years ago, i think, "why not?". Would it be a stupid idea to put myself on diy trt? Would i regret it?  

Opinions welcomed, thank you in advance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im not you so can't tell if you will regret it or not. 

If i was in your feet i would visit a good trt doctor. In your case dr Robert Stevens.

I started trt last month at the age of 29. No point waiting, what will you wait for? Be extremely old and have fatigue and feel like crap for no reason for decades?

Other thing i say specially now that i have a daughter is that im after quality of life. I have no contract with god for eternal life so i dont know how long ill be around. I want to be able to do everyday activities without feeling like crap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Seppuku71 said:

Opinions welcomed, thank you in advance.

I would be inclined to try a TRT dose for a few months and see how you feel, but I would certainly get full bloods done first as could be another reason for your symptoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for replying Djibril and Terbro., i appreciate you taking the effort. With regards to getting full bloods done, it's a year old now but i did take a 'trt plus' check exactly 12 months ago. The otbers have been the 'male hormone check' which don't give as much info. Although it's a year old, i'll attach screen shots of the 'trt plus' one. As you'll see, i'm obviously a bit messed up with regards to lipids etc (could the proviron have caused this, or just my love of butter?)

Screenshot_20191024-161112.jpg

Screenshot_20191024-161123.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm no expert, but from someone who has self prescribed it has made a world of difference to my quality of life.  I would be tempted to try 100 - 200mg test e week and re-test in a month or so and see where you're at. Your lipids aren't great, do you do any cardio? If not 3 X 20min sessions week would probably be a good idea. 

Your thyroid is a bit sluggish to. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Kruz, thank you for your advice. I don't do any cardio, and you're right i should do. I think in the past i've relied on just my 3x weekly weights sessions, plus my job to count as enough for cardio, but i know i should be doing more. 

I wondered if someone would pick up on my thyroid figures, that tsh is a bit high isn't it? Previous tests have had it around the 2 mark - don't laugh, but before taking that test i wait trying out a bit of 'iodine painting', basically rubbing iodine liquid straight on my scrotum. I'd read it can boost testosterone, but apparently it also raises tsh levels. I stopped it after that, it didn't have any positive effect on my test levels anyhow.

Kruz, can i ask a bit more about your story, why you decided to self medicate, what it's done for you etc. And for you, was it a progression from previous steroid cycling? Or were you natural before and this was your first experience with taking testosterone? Thanks in advance Kruz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding your lab results, your test is indeed low, if you have the symptoms then TRT would make sense. Im no expert on Thyroid but like Kruz said it is not optimal at all.

Hows your diet? To be honest with you i would sort my diet and add cardio 3 times a week to improve that lipid profile. Doesnt mean you cant do that while on TRT, find a good doc, Dr. Robert Stevens seems well proffesional, stay away from other TRT clinics that will rip you off and dont have the knowledge to treat you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Seppuku71 said:

Hi Kruz, thank you for your advice. I don't do any cardio, and you're right i should do. I think in the past i've relied on just my 3x weekly weights sessions, plus my job to count as enough for cardio, but i know i should be doing more. 

I wondered if someone would pick up on my thyroid figures, that tsh is a bit high isn't it? Previous tests have had it around the 2 mark - don't laugh, but before taking that test i wait trying out a bit of 'iodine painting', basically rubbing iodine liquid straight on my scrotum. I'd read it can boost testosterone, but apparently it also raises tsh levels. I stopped it after that, it didn't have any positive effect on my test levels anyhow.

Kruz, can i ask a bit more about your story, why you decided to self medicate, what it's done for you etc. And for you, was it a progression from previous steroid cycling? Or were you natural before and this was your first experience with taking testosterone? Thanks in advance Kruz.

Hi mate, I hadn't played with steroids properly before. When I was in my mid 20's I tried some of the designer orals that were around but my training and diet was shite. Maybe 2 four week cycles. 15 years or so later I'm 38, my libido has gone, my lifts are getting worse and generally staring to feel like I'm breaking. "This is it, I'm getting old" I thought.

  I thought I'd try some sarms as a safer alternative to steroids but they f**ked me up horribly. Crashed my SHBG, estrogen related sides due to my test being suppressed. Felt like death.

  I can't remember when trt became an idea but I'd heard people talk about it on podcasts that I listen too. It peaked my interest with all the latest studies showing how low test (under 500nmol/l) increases heart disease, strokes etc etc. 

I read a book by Jay Campbell called the TOT (testosterone optimisation therapy) Bible which was very good, albeit very American. Lots of references to studies etc.

I had a phone consultation with optimale and balance my hormones but quickly realised they had a product to sell and what they were saying was the best treatment just happened to be what they were selling, namely sustanon.

NHS was a no go as I wasn't off the scale of normal, so basically just as low as all the other low test sufferers. 

So self prescribed it is then. Jumped in at 250mg week.

Libido back with a vengeance, leveled of now, but it's back.

Energy is great, not feeling like falling asleep in the afternoon now.

Mood is great

Body composition. This is funny. After a month or two I thought f**k it. I'm off to Australia for Christmas I'll bump up my dosage so its like a lowish dose proper cycle(400mg week) I had already started seeing some small but noticeable changes in strength and in the mirror. These accelerated , my Mrs is complimenting my gains. Got a blood test the other day and I was only just over the top end of normal (1200ish nmol/l)Seems SIS Labs isn't the best lab to use. I would like to think this shows the impact low test can have on the ability to change your physique. I'd been spinning my wheels for a while and just bringing my levels to just about in range has been amazing for my training. I'm looking forward to trying some test from a reputable source and we'll see how that changes things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/24/2019 at 4:31 PM, Seppuku71 said:

With regards to getting full bloods done, it's a year old now but i did take a 'trt plus' check exactly 12 months ago. 

Bloods look okay but was a while back so be good to get a fresh view, especially if embarking on self TRT.

Cardio will definitely help mate, even if you just do 20 mins LISS after each workout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, kruz said:

Hi mate, I hadn't played with steroids properly before. When I was in my mid 20's I tried some of the designer orals that were around but my training and diet was shite. Maybe 2 four week cycles. 15 years or so later I'm 38, my libido has gone, my lifts are getting worse and generally staring to feel like I'm breaking. "This is it, I'm getting old" I thought.

  I thought I'd try some sarms as a safer alternative to steroids but they f**ked me up horribly. Crashed my SHBG, estrogen related sides due to my test being suppressed. Felt like death.

  I can't remember when trt became an idea but I'd heard people talk about it on podcasts that I listen too. It peaked my interest with all the latest studies showing how low test (under 500nmol/l) increases heart disease, strokes etc etc. 

I read a book by Jay Campbell called the TOT (testosterone optimisation therapy) Bible which was very good, albeit very American. Lots of references to studies etc.

I had a phone consultation with optimale and balance my hormones but quickly realised they had a product to sell and what they were saying was the best treatment just happened to be what they were selling, namely sustanon.

NHS was a no go as I wasn't off the scale of normal, so basically just as low as all the other low test sufferers. 

So self prescribed it is then. Jumped in at 250mg week.

Libido back with a vengeance, leveled of now, but it's back.

Energy is great, not feeling like falling asleep in the afternoon now.

Mood is great

Body composition. This is funny. After a month or two I thought f**k it. I'm off to Australia for Christmas I'll bump up my dosage so its like a lowish dose proper cycle(400mg week) I had already started seeing some small but noticeable changes in strength and in the mirror. These accelerated , my Mrs is complimenting my gains. Got a blood test the other day and I was only just over the top end of normal (1200ish nmol/l)Seems SIS Labs isn't the best lab to use. I would like to think this shows the impact low test can have on the ability to change your physique. I'd been spinning my wheels for a while and just bringing my levels to just about in range has been amazing for my training. I'm looking forward to trying some test from a reputable source and we'll see how that changes things.

just a couple of points re the bold :

250mg is not a TRT dose and will cause you problems in the long run

testosterone scores under 500nmol cause problems ?

the top end of normal is not 1200 nmol its around 28/30 nmol (theres quite a difference )

*i think you are mixing up Ng/dl and nmol /l

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, aqualung said:

just a couple of points re the bold :

250mg is not a TRT dose and will cause you problems in the long run

testosterone scores under 500nmol cause problems ?

the top end of normal is not 1200 nmol its around 28/30 nmol (theres quite a difference )

*i think you are mixing up Ng/dl and nmol /

Yes my bad I'm mixing up nmol and Ng/dl. Obviously the US is leading the way with trt research so it's a constant mindfuck switching between the two units.

Yeah I know I went in high to begin with, but I would argue that if blood levels are kept within a sensible range, so top of the normal range is fine, then the amount injected is irrelevant. If someone is injecting 250mg/week and their blood work is coming back at 1000ng/dl and other health markers are fine then what's the issue? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kruz said:

Yes my bad I'm mixing up nmol and Ng/dl. Obviously the US is leading the way with trt research so it's a constant mindfuck switching between the two units.

Yeah I know I went in high to begin with, but I would argue that if blood levels are kept within a sensible range, so top of the normal range is fine, then the amount injected is irrelevant. If someone is injecting 250mg/week and their blood work is coming back at 1000ng/dl and other health markers are fine then what's the issue? 

 

personally i dont think the U.S is 'leading the field' in TRT research , there 'experts 'change their minds on protocols from week to week and if you take a look at most U.S TRT forums they are a mindfield of multiple protocols with people trying to micromanage multiple hormones from taking multiple drugs and fu**ing themselves up in multiple ways in the process.

for some reason some people seem to equate having a high test level with having a good TRT protocol - that is not the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

3 hours ago, aqualung said:

personally i dont think the U.S is 'leading the field' in TRT research , there 'experts 'change their minds on protocols from week to week and if you take a look at most U.S TRT forums they are a mindfield of multiple protocols with people trying to micromanage multiple hormones from taking multiple drugs and fu**ing themselves up in multiple ways in the process.

for some reason some people seem to equate having a high test level with having a good TRT protocol - that is not the case.

There have been quite a few studies recently that explore the correlation and mechanistic relationship between declining testosterone and an increase in cardiac events, stroke, Alzheimer's etc.  I would rather have the testosterone levels of someone in the 20-30year old range of all other health markers are good and I feel good as it seems this could provide longevity benefits, and ideally from a good few years ago due to the general decline in men's testosterone levels over the recent years. 

Ive never been on any of the US trt forums. Would be interested to have a look if you could suggest any?

I think high testosterone is good if you feel good. Bad if you feel s**t. The NHS seem to be too number orientated ignoring how people feel. There isn't a cookie cutter approach that works for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone - thank you to all of you for the replies / suggestions. Some differing opinions going on which made for interesting reading, and i wish this had made deciding a plan for myself easier, but unfortunately it hasn't really.  If i try it, is 3 months enough time to know whether or not it was the right decision? And if it wasn't, is coming off after 3 months likely to leave me worse off? 

 I think, at my very core, the thought of being on any form of replacement therapy hits a mental barrier within me, which i know is irrational, but nevertheless still there in the background - the 'not natty anymore' dilemma. My whole motivation since starting out doing gym work has been based around 'old time' strongmen / natural training etc. It's just what i started reading about first, it's how i've identified myself, and has been the path i've followed for nearly 30 years. It's daft because, if low test is really my problem, and if the correct answer is replacement, then i'm just letting myself deteriorate because of......fragile ego? I was 50/50 thinking about starting today -(60mg Sun / 60mg Wed). I don't know what the hell i'm going to do now, but then i've been going through this in my head for a year now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Seppuku71 said:

Everyone - thank you to all of you for the replies / suggestions. Some differing opinions going on which made for interesting reading, and i wish this had made deciding a plan for myself easier, but unfortunately it hasn't really.  If i try it, is 3 months enough time to know whether or not it was the right decision? And if it wasn't, is coming off after 3 months likely to leave me worse off? 

I would honestly get bloods done again first mate so you can get a baseline.

Starting for a 'test' period would be like doing a first cycle, albeit at 125mg instead of say 500mg. If you saw no improvement in your symptoms over those 12 weeks, then would be easy to pct off that and recovery chances would be high imo.

What testosterone do you have ready to go?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, TERBO said:

I would honestly get bloods done again first mate so you can get a baseline.

Starting for a 'test' period would be like doing a first cycle, albeit at 125mg instead of say 500mg. If you saw no improvement in your symptoms over those 12 weeks, then would be easy to pct off that and recovery chances would be high imo.

What testosterone do you have ready to go?

Hi Terbo - the testosterone i've got, funnily enough kruz mentioned it earlier as being  possibly underdosed (good start)!  I've got four vials of SIS labs test enanthate, 300mg/ml.  I've also got some arimidex and hcg, but i've only got those as a 'just in case' as my plan was to keep things simple and just stick to a moderate dose of testosterone only. 

You're probably right about get another blood test before / if i start anything, but to be honest, all my tests from June '18 - June '19 have given similar results. My last one (this June), is here:

Screenshot_20191027-160624.thumb.jpg.5ec8e10a9fa17f35c82246bb54695573.jpgScreenshot_20191027-160642.thumb.jpg.0e3f9fc7eed517fb4a39829e25be09d5.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Seppuku71 said:

Hi Terbo - the testosterone i've got, funnily enough kruz mentioned it earlier as being  possibly underdosed (good start)!  I've got four vials of SIS labs test enanthate, 300mg/ml.  I've also got some arimidex and hcg, but i've only got those as a 'just in case' as my plan was to keep things simple and just stick to a moderate dose of testosterone only. 

You're probably right about get another blood test before / if i start anything, but to be honest, all my tests from June '18 - June '19 have given similar results. My last one (this June), is here:

That's fair enough mate if you have blood test from last 6 months.

Yeah wouldn't rate the SIS based on reviews on here, seems touch n go.

½ml a week in one shot would be fine with test e, no need for twice weekly jabs.

If you don't feel much after 4 weeks I would perhaps check test levels via quick blood test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2019 at 4:28 PM, TERBO said:

Yeah wouldn't rate the SIS based on reviews on here, seems touch n go

Their test-e should be okay. I’ve used a good bit of it as you are aware. I wouldn’t touch any orals they do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Sasnak said:

Their test-e should be okay. I’ve used a good bit of it as you are aware. I wouldn’t touch any orals they do. 

Yeah i've read that a lot, that their oils are gtg but their pills are bunk. Not that it matters much to me at the moment as i, once again, changed my mind at the last minute. It's a routine i've been going through since June 2018 when i had my first (of eight so far) private blood tests showing low t. I'll spend my lunch breaks at work during the week reading stuff like:

"Mood up, energy up, waist size down, biceps bigger, old pr's smashed, take no bullshit, permanent boner, job promotion" etc etc... Then just as i'm completely sold on the idea i'll read people saying things like this:

"Feel nothing after the honeymoon period, no fat loss, still ache, still tired, just placebo, stupid idea to put yourself through this for the rest of your life, still anxious" etc etc. The amount of time i've spent reading up on low t / trt, i could have achieved something useful by now, like getting a degree, or fixed my house up. It won't stop though, it's like an obsession....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Seppuku71 said:

changed my mind at the last minute

Fwiw my free test (the important figure) was identical to yours on the last pre cycle bloods I did. I’m 46. I felt fine, libido normal, plenty of energy to lift weights play rugby and so on. If you want to use steroids for performance reasons then crack on but I think you’d be foolish to use trt based on those figures. I’m afraid there’s too many people thinking that their slightly sub optimal testosterone levels are responsible for they way the feel, whether it be tired, depressed or both. I’d say that in the vast majority of cases their problems lie elsewhere. Some folk just cannot cope with the fact that some days you just don’t feel yourself.

59F996EC-1FE8-4D60-8EAB-84277471E1CB.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sasnak said:

Fwiw my free test (the important figure) was identical to yours on the last pre cycle bloods I did. I’m 46. I felt fine, libido normal, plenty of energy to lift weights play rugby and so on. If you want to use steroids for performance reasons then crack on but I think you’d be foolish to use trt based on those figures. I’m afraid there’s too many people thinking that their slightly sub optimal testosterone levels are responsible for they way the feel, whether it be tired, depressed or both. I’d say that in the vast majority of cases their problems lie elsewhere. Some folk just cannot cope with the fact that some days you just don’t feel yourself.

59F996EC-1FE8-4D60-8EAB-84277471E1CB.jpeg

I'm somewhat inclined to agree (somewhat). I reckon i'd feel better with a well dialed in trt protocol, after all, ref. the effect of testosterone if you compare someone on a cycle compared to a eunuch - i know which i'd rather be...  But, i have some days where i feel great. Last night after work i'd planned to workout. I got home though and felt rundown, joints hurt, just no oompf. But i went in my gym (converted garage) just to write out my next workout for whenever. Started messing around doing o/head presses with an empty bar, stretching a bit.....then just continued and had my best w/out in ages. So i don't know. I've no interest in doing steroid cycles, but just optimising everything is still so tempting. If it wasn't worth doing, why would anyone do it, or stick to it?

One thing i've been considering is trying another run of a serm to see if my balls are responsive again now i've been off clomid for over a year. It originally took me from an average of 11 nmol up to 21 nmol , but i think maybe i just took it for too long. Maybe nuts don't like top end LH for years on end? I'd probably have a go with toremifene though, clomid sometimes put me in a bad place, like having the dementors from Harry Potter after me, even at low doses. Plus, that 21 nmol level may have dropped a few months after starting, but i'll never know as i never got tested again till several years later.  I basically want everything - i want to be a beast in the gym again, but i want to be that special snowflake that can do that naturally just because Thor selected me and i'll never deteriate going into old age. Time will tell i guess, but at the moment i'm not satisfied and i'm wondering if i'm missing out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well this came as a bit of a shocker this morning. I took another blood test Thursday (14th Nov), about the nineth Medichecks test i've done since June '18. I was kinda hoping my testosterone might have risen since the last one this June (9.67nmol/l, LH 4.5), but instead it's much lower. 

Opinions please?

 

Screenshot_20191116-090317.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, aqualung said:

tbh i cant work out what you are doing /have done as multiple people are posting results in this thread.

Ok, so basically i'm 48 y/o. Got nhs blood test at around age 38 ish, testosterone was approx 12nmol. Got second nhs test after two weeks taking d-aspartic acid, result was 9nmol. Was sent to endo, few months after, blood test was 14nmol - endo said all good. About 4 years later (aged around 42), read about clomud, bought some, took it. Went to docs saying i wanted a blood test - came back at 21nmol. All good, and kept on clomid (doc didn't know about the clomid). Life was good, workouts excellent, energy etc etc.

Fast forward to 2017 - started getting bad joints, aches and pains, low energy, tired from long walks on holiday with kids etc. Read about Medichecks, in 2018,  got basic testosterone test - 11.7nmol (ON CLOMID STILL). Repeated test, exact same result, with bottom range free test. Stopped clomid. Several blood tests throughout 2018 - 2019, results between 7nmol to this June, just over 9nmol. As i was unsure what to do next, took new blood test this week - results above. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I would do.

Half a mil of test e or c every 10 days. 500iu of hcg twice weekly. Bloods after week 5, adjust test dose if required. See how I feel after 8-10 weeks. If I still feel shite and bloods confirm the test dose has brought me in range then I’d realise that low test isn’t the problem and stop test. If I feel great I’d continue.

I’m not a doctor and I’m not recommending that you do this. It’s just what I would do personally 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×