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Lloyd H

Blood work on Nexus, e2 a little high.

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Hi guys, currently running nexus test e 300 twice a week, split monday and Thursday so 600mg in total and 0.25 adex on jab days so 0.5 total a week.

My e2 is a little out would it be worth adding in an extra 0.25 to get it in range or leave it where it is as i feel ok?

Bloods were drawn on Thursay morning before my next jab of 300, thanks. Bloods below.

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So if both e2 AND test are outside normal range how do they relate to each other in this instance?

ie if they are both  high but test is still relatively higher, then this should explain why you feel ok (if that makes sense).

Would also be interested to know if e2 could still be detrimental in this case.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Distal2018 said:

So if both e2 AND test are outside normal range how do they relate to each other in this instance?

ie if they are both  high but test is still relatively higher, then this should explain why you feel ok (if that makes sense).

Would also be interested to know if e2 could still be detrimental in this case.

 

 

Doesn’t work like that mate, we want elevated testosterone which is why we use it, estrogen we want within a natural healthy range. Estrogen in higher doses than normal doesn’t provide any benefit where as testosterone obviously does. High estrogen can lead to water retention, libido issues, high blood pressure, mood swings etc etc. I’d take 0.5mg twice a week and then re test.

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16 minutes ago, Sam R said:

Doesn’t work like that mate, we want elevated testosterone which is why we use it, estrogen we want within a natural healthy range. Estrogen in higher doses than normal doesn’t provide any benefit where as testosterone obviously does. High estrogen can lead to water retention, libido issues, high blood pressure, mood swings etc etc. I’d take 0.5mg twice a week and then re test.

Thanks mate.

What I'm interested in are the sides you noted re high e2. Can these be masked by having a relatively high test level?

The reason i ask is because on a very high dose of test, eq and mast and I'm suffering none of these sides and  not running an ai.

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2 hours ago, Distal2018 said:

So if both e2 AND test are outside normal range how do they relate to each other in this instance?

ie if they are both  high but test is still relatively higher, then this should explain why you feel ok (if that makes sense).

Would also be interested to know if e2 could still be detrimental in this case.

 

 

As @Sam R says running e2 out of " the range" can lead to other complications. My question was is it worth adding in an extra 0.25 to bring it back into range as its not far off now.

 

43 minutes ago, Sam R said:

Doesn’t work like that mate, we want elevated testosterone which is why we use it, estrogen we want within a natural healthy range. Estrogen in higher doses than normal doesn’t provide any benefit where as testosterone obviously does. High estrogen can lead to water retention, libido issues, high blood pressure, mood swings etc etc. I’d take 0.5mg twice a week and then re test.

thanks for the reply mate, im not holding much water if any, libido is ok could be better though. I crashed my e2 taking 0.5 mwf at the start of my cycle and felt like death so i stopped ai for 2 weeks and everything went back to normal but started getting really bad headaches when working out so guessed it could be blood pressure issue due to high e2 as i stopped ai for 2 weeks so started taking 0.25 twice a week and head aches have gone. I might just leave it at 0.25 twice a week and see how i progress in final 6 weeks (12 week bulk) then drop to cruise again to cut. I think taking 1mg adex a week will crash it too much thats why orignial question was to up it to 0.75 a week as its not way out i think il just power on until my cruise and leave things the way they are.

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9 minutes ago, Lloyd H said:

As @Sam R says running e2 out of " the range" can lead to other complications. My question was is it worth adding in an extra 0.25 to bring it back into range as its not far off now.

 

I get that mate but I’m interested in these ‘other complications’ because if the ones listed on this thread aren’t being experienced and e2 is still out of range then how damaging can it be?

As drugs have different effects on different people I’m assuming elevated e2 can vary greatly in its effects. 

Im sure if I had my bloods taken then my e2 levels will be through the roof but why am i not experiencing these sides.?

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23 minutes ago, Distal2018 said:

I get that mate but I’m interested in these ‘other complications’ because if the ones listed on this thread aren’t being experienced and e2 is still out of range then how damaging can it be?

As drugs have different effects on different people I’m assuming elevated e2 can vary greatly in its effects. 

Im sure if I had my bloods taken then my e2 levels will be through the roof but why am i not experiencing these sides.?

High e2 can lead to gyno, libido problems, ed problems, acne, water retention, enlarging of the prostate, mood swings, high blood pressure etc.

I don't know your dosages but obviously they are high as your self admittance of your e2 being sky high and your not using ai's. To answer your question of your not suffering any high e2 sides doesn't mean its a good thing, just because your not experiencing any side effects of e2 prolonged high e2 could cause a number of problems, some of are listed above down the line, I've seen some people say they been cycling for 20+ years with no ai but of all a sudden they need more adex on a cruise dose than some people on a blast, so just because your not experiencing any side effects doesn't mean its good for you to have sky high e2 and like you stated its person dependant also but id still rather play it safe and keep e2 under control rather than letting it go sky high because your not experiencing any sides. Each to their own i suppose.

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1 hour ago, Sam R said:

Doesn’t work like that mate, we want elevated testosterone which is why we use it, estrogen we want within a natural healthy range. Estrogen in higher doses than normal doesn’t provide any benefit where as testosterone obviously does. High estrogen can lead to water retention, libido issues, high blood pressure, mood swings etc etc. I’d take 0.5mg twice a week and then re test.

This is inaccurate. The ratio of testosterone to oestrogen is of importance rather than simply maintaining certain hormone levels.

The body strives for homeostasis, and having very high testosterone but normal levels of oestrogen can cause problems.

Oestrogen should be allowed to rise only to the point that you are not succumbing to oestrogen related side effects. This is very individual and with time you learn where this point is for your body.

Generally most people are fine at the time end of normal with doses of testosterone between 300-500mg. First time users are the most likely to experience oestrogen related side effects.

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4 minutes ago, Bensif said:

This is inaccurate. The ratio of testosterone to oestrogen is of importance rather than simply maintaining certain hormone levels.

The body strives for homeostasis, and having very high testosterone but normal levels of oestrogen can cause problems.

Oestrogen should be allowed to rise only to the point that you are not succumbing to oestrogen related side effects. This is very individual and with time you learn where this point is for your body.

Generally most people are fine at the time end of normal with doses of testosterone between 300-500mg. First time users are the most likely to experience oestrogen related side effects.

This is pretty much what I was asking but obviously you put it far better than I did !!!

Nice post mate.

The bodies way of achieving homeostasis is fascinating and clearly some people’s bodies achieve this more efficiently than others. As an example 2 weeks into my EQ stack I was suffering pretty much all of the symptoms associated with high RBC count. Now, 8 weeks in, they’ve gone and the physical effects on my physique and strength are really noticeable. I don’t know where all this 16 weeks to notice EQ comes from- oh yeah, the internet. I forgot about that.

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12 minutes ago, Lloyd H said:

...like you stated its person dependant also but id still rather play it safe and keep e2 under control rather than letting it go sky high because your not experiencing any sides. Each to their own i suppose.

I think so mate.

Bloods are the only way to go but clearly it’s not just a case of ‘my e2 is out of range therefore I need an ai’.

The detrimental effect they have us rejarivw to test level as far as I can see. (I think !!!)

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55 minutes ago, Bensif said:

This is inaccurate. The ratio of testosterone to oestrogen is of importance rather than simply maintaining certain hormone levels.

The body strives for homeostasis, and having very high testosterone but normal levels of oestrogen can cause problems.

Oestrogen should be allowed to rise only to the point that you are not succumbing to oestrogen related side effects. This is very individual and with time you learn where this point is for your body.

Generally most people are fine at the time end of normal with doses of testosterone between 300-500mg. First time users are the most likely to experience oestrogen related side effects.

I'm on the other side of the fence of this debate, I believe keeping e2 within the normal range is important.

Oestrogen being high or low obviously presents problems and in both cases an increased risk of adverse cardiovascular events is present, however much like if testosterone was very high and oestrogen was higher, the negative effects of the high testosterone on the heart wouldn't be cancelled out by the oestrogen being higher in ratio; therefore it stands to reason that the negative effects of high oestrogen on the heart don't just disappear because the side effects such as gyno or water retention are being stamped out by a higher ratio of androgens in the system. Levels of 20-30ng/L in men are shown to be ideal and anything outside of that proposes an increased risk of heart attacks, strokes etc. and I firmly don't believe that changes just because high androgen levels are thrown into the mix, if anything this would be a double whammy.

I've never known anyone to suffer side effects typical of low oestrogen while keeping their oestrogen levels in the normal range while testosterone levels are very high. I feel my best when oestrogen is kept within range, even if I didn't get typical oestrogenic effects when it was out of range but test/oestrogen levels were balanced.

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4 minutes ago, nWo said:

negative effects of the high testosterone on the heart wouldn't be cancelled out by the oestrogen being higher in ratio; therefore it stands to reason that the negative effects of high oestrogen on the heart don't just disappear because the side effects such as gyno or water retention are being stamped out by a higher ratio of androgens in the system.

Thats what i was referring to in terms of 'other sides' that aren't included on the usual list of things we can see and feel going on in our bodies.

 

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49 minutes ago, nWo said:

I'm on the other side of the fence of this debate, I believe keeping e2 within the normal range is important.

Oestrogen being high or low obviously presents problems and in both cases an increased risk of adverse cardiovascular events is present, however much like if testosterone was very high and oestrogen was higher, the negative effects of the high testosterone on the heart wouldn't be cancelled out by the oestrogen being higher in ratio; therefore it stands to reason that the negative effects of high oestrogen on the heart don't just disappear because the side effects such as gyno or water retention are being stamped out by a higher ratio of androgens in the system. Levels of 20-30ng/L in men are shown to be ideal and anything outside of that proposes an increased risk of heart attacks, strokes etc. and I firmly don't believe that changes just because high androgen levels are thrown into the mix, if anything this would be a double whammy.

I've never known anyone to suffer side effects typical of low oestrogen while keeping their oestrogen levels in the normal range while testosterone levels are very high. I feel my best when oestrogen is kept within range, even if I didn't get typical oestrogenic effects when it was out of range but test/oestrogen levels were balanced.

There have been a number of studies on various types of heart disease and the role hormones play on them. Generally it has been noted that the ratio is a determining factor in the development of heart disease. Maintaining the ratio reduces the risk, rather than arbitrarily keeping one hormone in range.

 

Whilst the risk can increase if one hormone in isolation increases, you need to look at what happens when they both increase in what is considered the ‘ideal’ ratio.

 

A slight digression, but pertinent point; it is similar to sodium and potassium in the body. If sodium alone is too high, this can increase the risk of stroke for example. But the answer isn’t only lowering sodium, it’s more to do with the ratio of sodium to potassium. Often lowering sodium is cited because ‘the average person’ rarely gets adequate amounts of potassium in their diet.

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2 hours ago, Bensif said:

There have been a number of studies on various types of heart disease and the role hormones play on them. Generally it has been noted that the ratio is a determining factor in the development of heart disease. Maintaining the ratio reduces the risk, rather than arbitrarily keeping one hormone in range.

 

Whilst the risk can increase if one hormone in isolation increases, you need to look at what happens when they both increase in what is considered the ‘ideal’ ratio.

 

A slight digression, but pertinent point; it is similar to sodium and potassium in the body. If sodium alone is too high, this can increase the risk of stroke for example. But the answer isn’t only lowering sodium, it’s more to do with the ratio of sodium to potassium. Often lowering sodium is cited because ‘the average person’ rarely gets adequate amounts of potassium in their diet.

Yeah, I mean I've seen the studies, but I feel they don't go deep enough. High testosterone and low estrogen in men has been linked to heart disease; and low testosterone high estrogen has been linked to heart disease. So we know this... but if the ratios are all we should be going by, it stands to reason that your testosterone and estrogen can be through the roof, but as long as they're in a balanced ratio then they should have negligible effects by way of cardiovascular remodelling, correct? I personally doubt it.This doesn't make sense to me. Both hormones have negative effects on the cardiovascular system when they're out of range. From what I've seen, there have been no studies to determine whether or not high test:high estrogen would be more harmful than high test:normal estrogen. So it's impossible to actually answer the question, but for the reasons I've pointed out, I think the former would be more harmful. High estrogen and high testosterone both independently cause cardiovascular remodelling, so it makes sense that both being high means double-trouble. The ratio is of course important in negating effects such as gyno and water retention where high androgen levels negate the effects of high estrogen levels in such areas, but again, I highly doubt they'd cancel each other out in all areas.

The thing with potassium and sodium is, if both were too high this would cause deleterious effects to one's health either way. Sure, the ratio is very important - difference between these and hormones is, as you pointed out, most humans don't get too much potassium, so it changes the standard advice. You'd still be damaging yourself if, hypothetically, you were getting too much of both even if the ratios were good.

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