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bigD29

Has anyone ever come off TRT?

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Just wondering if anyone has ever came off TRT after starting it? 

 

Im interested to know if I changed my mind, after 6 months or so would it be that much of a big deal to PCT and after how long in terms of time would be the point of no return? 

 

 

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if you need  TRT you wont be coming off it , if you think you need TRT and dont have or have an incorrect diagnosis recovery is very person specific.

imo if you think you need TRT and are are already considering 'coming off it' then you dont need it as your symptoms are not severe enough to warrant it in the first place.

im not saying this is your case as i dont know your history , but many people post on here thinking they need TRT because of symptoms that can often be attributed to another cause that is far more likely than a hypogonadism diagnosis.

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The NHS guidelines advocate further investigation and a 6 month trial where there are persistent symptoms of hypogonadism and the total testosterone level is 12nmol/ ltr or less or "borderline levels". This is an awkward place as there's a fair risk symptoms such as lack of morning wood,  low libido etc could be testosterone related but a chance they aren't too.

I doubt they would suggest the above course of action if there was any significant chance that it would shut you down permanently... But there's always a risk.

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9 hours ago, charlysays said:

The NHS guidelines advocate further investigation and a 6 month trial where there are persistent symptoms of hypogonadism and the total testosterone level is 12nmol/ ltr or less or "borderline levels". This is an awkward place as there's a fair risk symptoms such as lack of morning wood,  low libido etc could be testosterone related but a chance they aren't too.

I doubt they would suggest the above course of action if there was any significant chance that it would shut you down permanently... But there's always a risk.

Excellent post. Thank you for the info

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8 hours ago, Mingster said:

As said above. If you really need TRT there's no obvious reason to ever come off.

True but my levels are borderline, I have symptoms and id prefer to be feeling more energetic and have a good sex life rather than sluggish like I am some days, not all days are bad though. Suppose if I didn't feel quite as good then I would come off 

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I understand that. I don't know the specifics of your situation - save that you have borderline test levels - but what people need to remember is genuine TRT is a last resort for people who have no other option.

You see people on here blithely going onto self prescribed trt without a thought for the long term issues this will cause. Others insist that being top end of the range is better than being lower middle when it clearly isn't, and so on, and so on.

TRT is for life, and the ramifications of that are far ranging. I'm 100% serious when I say I would rather be sitting here with low to mid range natty test levels than be on TRT.

This isn't directed at you by the way, just general observations of many posts I see every week.

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Equally though, if those low normal natty test levels aren't give you morning erections you are most certainly heading for problems down the road with regards to erectile health. Stuff like viagra and ciallis can patch together sex but a long term lack of morning erections leads to deterioration of erectile tissue and function. Also CHD and diabetes is linked with low testosterone. There are a couple of reliable studies from the 90s looking at testosterone levels by age and 12nmol/ltr is considerably less than the average in 20-30yr olds and 20-40yr olds and is lower still than this average minus the standard deviation. You only get your 20s once.

Worth trying low dose clomid first though as some young men respond very well to it. After 3-4 weeks on it I'm starting to wake with some form of an erection every morning and actually feel awake in the day time and tired at night.

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1 hour ago, Mingster said:

I understand that. I don't know the specifics of your situation - save that you have borderline test levels - but what people need to remember is genuine TRT is a last resort for people who have no other option.

You see people on here blithely going onto self prescribed trt without a thought for the long term issues this will cause. Others insist that being top end of the range is better than being lower middle when it clearly isn't, and so on, and so on.

TRT is for life, and the ramifications of that are far ranging. I'm 100% serious when I say I would rather be sitting here with low to mid range natty test levels than be on TRT.

This isn't directed at you by the way, just general observations of many posts I see every week.

This makes sense and is what im kinda worried about TBH. But what am I supposed to do, yes I can live my life as I am but im only 34 yrs old and my Total Test is 13 nmol, yes its low but not mega low, even though I still feel like its affecting me, I don't enjoy sex like I used to, I also get tired easy and a whole array of other things, like I said some days are good, some are bad, ive had to cut back on training because ive found my body can't recover and im very tired as consequence. 

I had the week off gym and felt ok, not tired but the lack of sex drive is still there.

I suppose with age my test levels are going to decline anyway sooner or later? and if I do anymore cycles, im sure that will add to the damage. 

 

What do you suggest I do?

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1 minute ago, bigD29 said:

This makes sense and is what im kinda worried about TBH. But what am I supposed to do, yes I can live my life as I am but im only 34 yrs old and my Total Test is 13 nmol, yes its low but not mega low, even though I still feel like its affecting me, I don't enjoy sex like I used to, I also get tired easy and a whole array of other things, like I said some days are good, some are bad, ive had to cut back on training because ive found my body can't recover and im very tired as consequence. 

I had the week off gym and felt ok, not tired but the lack of sex drive is still there.

I suppose with age my test levels are going to decline anyway sooner or later? and if I do anymore cycles, im sure that will add to the damage. 

 

What do you suggest I do?

As I said I wasn't talking about you in my post. 13 is low and I would class 15-18 n/mol as a low to medium level.

I really can't tell you what to do. Have you tried any of the normal methods of raising test? Do you use Zinc? Vitamin D? Lower sugar intake, eat more fats, high intensity exercise, strength training, eliminating stress, adequate sleep etc?

 

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1 minute ago, bigD29 said:

This makes sense and is what im kinda worried about TBH. But what am I supposed to do, yes I can live my life as I am but im only 34 yrs old and my Total Test is 13 nmol, yes its low but not mega low, even though I still feel like its affecting me, I don't enjoy sex like I used to, I also get tired easy and a whole array of other things, like I said some days are good, some are bad, ive had to cut back on training because ive found my body can't recover and im very tired as consequence. 

I had the week off gym and felt ok, not tired but the lack of sex drive is still there.

I suppose with age my test levels are going to decline anyway sooner or later? and if I do anymore cycles, im sure that will add to the damage. 

 

What do you suggest I do?

You've cut your sessions down in the gym because you struggle to recover? I felt that bad before I started trt I struggled to leave the house. You told me yesterday you'd been through a hard time a few years back, get you cortisol levels checked. You've ran cycles in the past and probably felt amazing. Think outside the box mate. 

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I have followed this thread and a few like it on here. Are there any other reasons that might come into play? Alcohol has a negative impact on test, would knocking the booze on the head help. One guy posted pretty much the same as you a while ago and after a pretty long thread he revealed that he had a pretty hardcore benzo addiction. Valium is known to affect test production.

So before you think about trt, is there anything else that could be impacting, alcohol, drugs, poor diet. Are you happy in work/relationships. Are you putting anything important off that is in the back of your mind, procrastination can have an adverse impact on wellbeing.

If there is anything, you need to sort whatever it is out first.

Good luck. :) 

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1 minute ago, Sasnak said:

I have followed this thread and a few like it on here. Are there any other reasons that might come into play? Alcohol has a negative impact on test, would knocking the booze on the head help. One guy posted pretty much the same as you a while ago and after a pretty long thread he revealed that he had a pretty hardcore benzo addiction. Valium is known to affect test production.

So before you think about trt, is there anything else that could be impacting, alcohol, drugs, poor diet. Are you happy in work/relationships. Are you putting anything important off that is in the back of your mind, procrastination can have an adverse impact on wellbeing.

If there is anything, you need to sort whatever it is out first.

Good luck. :) 

Totally agree. 

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29 minutes ago, Mingster said:

As I said I wasn't talking about you in my post. 13 is low and I would class 15-18 n/mol as a low to medium level.

I really can't tell you what to do. Have you tried any of the normal methods of raising test? Do you use Zinc? Vitamin D? Lower sugar intake, eat more fats, high intensity exercise, strength training, eliminating stress, adequate sleep etc?

 

I have actually tried zinc which had a placebo effect, vit d, ive tried all the fats such as duck eggs etc, I don't think its anything to do with that now. 

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32 minutes ago, JonSon said:

You've cut your sessions down in the gym because you struggle to recover? I felt that bad before I started trt I struggled to leave the house. You told me yesterday you'd been through a hard time a few years back, get you cortisol levels checked. You've ran cycles in the past and probably felt amazing. Think outside the box mate. 

Thanks, I was as low as 0.2 nmol total test when I first came off the AAS and went to 3.3 nmol, 6.6 nmol and 9nmol and finally to 12 and 13nmol to be honest I feel worse now than when I did at 6 nmol and 9 nmol, its slowly crept back up over about 18 months and the last 3 blood tests dating back to 1 year ago are all showing 13 nmol as total test! 

I am trying to take everyones comments onboard 

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25 minutes ago, Sasnak said:

I have followed this thread and a few like it on here. Are there any other reasons that might come into play? Alcohol has a negative impact on test, would knocking the booze on the head help. One guy posted pretty much the same as you a while ago and after a pretty long thread he revealed that he had a pretty hardcore benzo addiction. Valium is known to affect test production.

So before you think about trt, is there anything else that could be impacting, alcohol, drugs, poor diet. Are you happy in work/relationships. Are you putting anything important off that is in the back of your mind, procrastination can have an adverse impact on wellbeing.

If there is anything, you need to sort whatever it is out first.

Good luck. :) 

I don't drink hardly anything, couple of beers on the weekend sometimes. 

Vallium - NO

I don't do drugs

I don't smoke

I am happily married, I don't think the problem lies or stems from this type of thing. 

 

 

I took alot of gear over a period of 2 years and I think this has caused the damage, my levels recovered to 13nmol total test and won't recover any higher but I don't know what my baseline levels were before but to be honest Ive took gear since I was 19 on and off 

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1 minute ago, bigD29 said:

Thanks, I was as low as 0.2 nmol total test when I first came off the AAS and it was about 1 year and it was still at about 6 nmol, to be honest I feel worse now than when I did at 6 nmol and 9 nmol, its slowly crept back up over about 18 months and the last 3 blood tests dating back to 1 year ago are all showing 13 nmol as total test! 

I am trying to take everyones comments onboard 

So you feel worse even though you levels have increased. I'd be looking for other causes for the way you feel, maybe even try low dose test and see if this improves the way you feel.   

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24 minutes ago, bigD29 said:

I don't drink hardly anything, couple of beers on the weekend sometimes. 

Vallium - NO

I don't do drugs

I don't smoke

I am happily married, I don't think the problem lies or stems from this type of thing. 

 

 

I took alot of gear over a period of 2 years and I think this has caused the damage, my levels recovered to 13nmol total test and won't recover any higher but I don't know what my baseline levels were before but to be honest Ive took gear since I was 19 on and off 

Good to hear that you are otherwise happy. I'll level with you, maybe you're experiencing what some would call a bit of a mid life crisis? I mean you talk about not being able to train as hard as you used to, but you are getting older! Sex isn't as enjoyable as it used to be? Again, you are older? You know, mortgage, kids, bills. You ain't 19 anymore, working out isn't new fun and as exciting like it used to be. Sex isn't new fun and as exciting as it used to be. This is all just the reality of middle age and we all feel like this from time to time. It doesn't seem to me that you are experiencing adverse health problems as such. Perhaps you should say to yourself, right, I'm going to forget about this for the rest of the summer and chill out and if I don't feel any better come September, I will revisit it.

You never know, it might just all be in your mind.

 

Edit - I'm 43 btw

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1 minute ago, Sasnak said:

Good to hear that you are otherwise happy. I'll level with you, maybe you're experiencing what some would call a bit of a mid life crisis? I mean you talk about not being able to train as hard as you used to, but you are getting older! Sex isn't as enjoyable as it used to be? Again, you are older? You know, mortgage, kids, bills. You ain't 19 anymore, working out isn't new fun and as exciting like it used to be. Sex isn't new fun and as exciting as it used to be. This is all just the reality of middle age and we all feel like this from time to time. It doesn't seem to me that you are experiencing adverse health problems as such. Perhaps you should say to yourself, right, I'm going to forget about this for the rest of the summer and chill out and if I don't feel any better come September, I will revisit it.

You never know, it might just all be in your mind.

Ive spoken with 2 private Doctors who both said my natural levels should be in the 20's, I don't think its in my head as I have been like this for almost 2 years now and it seems to be getting worse. 

I hear what you are saying but I need to get my life back, I bought some UGL test and was going to jab it but then what happens when I want to come off? I am going to crash again!

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I cannot comment on the range. iirc mingster was suggesting that you have just below low normal. Surely this is not unusual for some men. We don't all have high natural test levels. Obviously you take a risk as soon as you pin any exogenous test.

perhaps @big vin can help thanks

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13 n/mol is low, but everyone is different. It's no good focusing on numbers. Normal range being in the 20's means absolutely nothing. If you feel ok then 15 or less would be fine. I feel fine with less than 10 for the last couple of weeks of my treatment. A range is just a guideline, it's not inclusive of all. 

The OP has three options really.

1. Attempt to increase natty test levels. Not eating enough fats is a common mistake. Not including intense exercise is another. Having low test doesn't prevent intense training as I trained extremely intensely with 'undetectable' test levels..

2. Go back to the doctors for more bloods. 13 is only 1 above the level where further investigation is required. 

3. Self medicate. This is obviously the most risky alternative. Buying black market test means you never have a clue as to the accuracy of the doses or that the test is even test at all. Under dosing will mean you are no further forward, whilst over dosing will run the risk of increased hematocrit and hemoglobin, raised estrogen levels, and possible prostrate issues.

Personally I would go back to my doctor and have a frank discussion. If you feel your doctor is being deliberately obstructive then change your doctor as you're under no obligation to remain with a specific GP.

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Or option 4 is to go and get further testing done as ming said but then see a private specialist with a view to getting your GP to prescribe on their recommendation if you have a couple hundred quid spare.

On another note what are your thyroid levels like? 

It seems very common for men with low test to have a TSH which is a bit on the high side.

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6 minutes ago, Sasnak said:

Just be vary of private doctors though. It is always in their interest to find something that facilitates repeat visits and you paying them more money.

Definitely. Good trustworthy doctors in op's vague area would be Geoff Hackett at the good hope hospital in Birmingham or Dr savage in Doncaster.

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