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The Good People of Scotland.

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15 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

Scotland is not just a region though, it's also a country in it's own right with it's own parliament. 

TBH (not aimed at you) but regardless of what anyone thinks of Sturgeon or the SNP. Given the figs for the Scottish vote in the independence referendum and the following EU referendum, anyone that can't see how or why the Brexit result legitimately opens the door for a second independence vote is either being disingenuous or really is a bit of a thickie.

And some of the vitriol being aimed at Sturgeon is pathetic. It wouldn't make any difference who was leader of the SNP their position would be the same. Their primary objective has always been Scottish independence and they have never made a secret of that. 

As I said earlier , I really don't care either way. What I'm going to have for lunch is more important to me than whether Scotland decide to go on their own. Just pointing out some obvious facts. 

I think most people have a problem with her as she is possibly  the only person in history to argue for independence and union in the same sentence,it really seems an illogical argument more of i dont care of the consequences just not the English

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4 hours ago, MickeyE said:

Scotland is not just a region though, it's also a country in it's own right with it's own parliament. 

TBH (not aimed at you) but regardless of what anyone thinks of Sturgeon or the SNP. Given the figs for the Scottish vote in the independence referendum and the following EU referendum, anyone that can't see how or why the Brexit result legitimately opens the door for a second independence vote is either being disingenuous or really is a bit of a thickie.

And some of the vitriol being aimed at Sturgeon is pathetic. It wouldn't make any difference who was leader of the SNP their position would be the same. Their primary objective has always been Scottish independence and they have never made a secret of that. 

As I said earlier , I really don't care either way. What I'm going to have for lunch is more important to me than whether Scotland decide to go on their own. Just pointing out some obvious facts. 

Third.

Third referendum

And the issue is that they'll just keep going till they get what they want.

That is not democracy 

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Personally I think the original referendum was flawed.  The Scottish question, the Brexit question and even the Northern Ireland boarder poll when it happens it should need a 70% majority to pass. In that way it could be seen as a definitive answer and when it's a close call (50/50) it would be simple to say you need to wait ten years before the next one as there's another 20% to make up.

 

Whilst I'd be a fan of an independent Scotland I think the SNP would be better focussing the next ten years on convincing the no voters to their way of thinking. In the meantime they can blame everything on the English and brexit.

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3 hours ago, Dan71 said:

I think most people have a problem with her as she is possibly  the only person in history to argue for independence and union in the same sentence,it really seems an illogical argument more of i dont care of the consequences just not the English

The UK and  EU are obvioulsy different unions . It's like saying if you want to be in the cricket club you must also want to be in the rugby club . I don't think that makes any sense. 

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14 minutes ago, simonboyle said:

Third.

Third referendum

And the issue is that they'll just keep going till they get what they want.

That is not democracy 

If the people get to decide then yes it is democracy. We have general elections roughly every 4 to 5 years. Is that not democratic because they're too close together.

Anyway, again you're ignoring the point. The independence referendum took place before the UK withdrew from the EU. Just watching Sturgeon on Sky news. apparently it was in their 2015 general election manifesto that if there was a "material change" in circumstances the SNP would call for another independence referendum. They even specifically listed as an example the UK taking Scotland out of the EU. so to be fair all they are doing now is following through on their manifesto promises.

Isn't that generally what we want politicians to do?

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1 minute ago, MickeyE said:

If the people get to decide then yes it is democracy. We have general elections roughly every 4 to 5 years. Is that not democratic because they're too close together.

Anyway, again you're ignoring the point. The independence referendum took place before the UK withdrew from the EU. Just watching Sturgeon on Sky news. apparently it was in their 2015 general election manifesto that if there was a "material change" in circumstances the SNP would call for another independence referendum. They even specifically listed as an example the UK taking Scotland out of the EU. so to be fair all they are doing now is following through on their manifesto promises.

Isn't that generally what we want politicians to do?

Do you also think it is right she is calling for it before the terms of Brexit are known? When the UK leaves the EU, that is the material change, until that time there is no change and she has no mandate to call for another referendum. Theresa May is correct, now is not the time, but the SNP just like to cause problems and be the centre of attention. 

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13 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

If the people get to decide then yes it is democracy. We have general elections roughly every 4 to 5 years. Is that not democratic because they're too close together.

Anyway, again you're ignoring the point. The independence referendum took place before the UK withdrew from the EU. Just watching Sturgeon on Sky news. apparently it was in their 2015 general election manifesto that if there was a "material change" in circumstances the SNP would call for another independence referendum. They even specifically listed as an example the UK taking Scotland out of the EU. so to be fair all they are doing now is following through on their manifesto promises.

Isn't that generally what we want politicians to do?

No...Generally quite the opposite, they promise this that and the other in the manifesto and deliver nothing ;) 

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Just now, MR RIGSBY said:

Do you also think it is right she is calling for it before the terms of Brexit are known? When the UK leaves the EU, that is the material change, until that time there is no change and she has no mandate to call for another referendum. Theresa May is correct, now is not the time, but the SNP just like to cause problems and be the centre of attention. 

No I don't think it's right that another referendum should take place before the terms of Brexit are agreed and I think Sturgeon would be stupid to try to push for it happening before then. But I don't think that is what she is asking for. I'm sure she has already said that the SNP are flexible with the timing. I believe she is calling for Westminster to agree to allow another independence rather than calling for it to happen immediately. 

And TBF however you chop it up , the UK leaving the EU is a "material change" . As I said the SNP actually listed the UK leaving the EU as an example of that "material change". I doubt their manifesto went on to say if it's a soft brexit that doesn't count as material change...

See this is the problem with "democracy" people are so fickle. We berate politicians when they don't honour manifesto promises and we don't like it when they do, if it doesn't suit or interests or views. 

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35 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

The UK and  EU are obvioulsy different unions . It's like saying if you want to be in the cricket club you must also want to be in the rugby club . I don't think that makes any sense. 

yes but neither way offers scotland independence and the Eu is quite open in its desire to have complete integration and over riding control of member states,would the euro suit Scotland absolutely not,even she admits this

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1 minute ago, Dan71 said:

yes but neither way offers scotland independence and the Eu is quite open in its desire to have complete integration and over riding control of member states,would the euro suit Scotland absolutely not,even she admits this

Well that's just democracy mate. Everyone has a different view, and regardless of how obvious it may seem to you what the EU is all about , 62% of Scots that voted still wanted to remain in it. 

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5 minutes ago, MickeyE said:

No I don't think it's right that another referendum should take place before the terms of Brexit are agreed and I think Sturgeon would be stupid to try to push for it happening before then. But I don't think that is what she is asking for. I'm sure she has already said that the SNP are flexible with the timing. I believe she is calling for Westminster to agree to allow another independence rather than calling for it to happen immediately. 

And TBF however you chop it up , the UK leaving the EU is a "material change" . As I said the SNP actually listed the UK leaving the EU as an example of that "material change". I doubt their manifesto went on to say if it's a soft brexit that doesn't count as material change...

See this is the problem with "democracy" people are so fickle. We berate politicians when they don't honour manifesto promises and we don't like it when they do, if it doesn't suit or interests or views. 

I know the UK leaving the EU is a material change, but we haven't left yet, and until we do no one should speculate on the terms.

My only argument is regarding the timing, wait till Brexit actually happens.Let the politicians concentrate on Brexit first and foremost.Then if the Scots want a referendum let them have it. I honestly think most in England are past caring whether Scotland remains or not.

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Just now, MR RIGSBY said:

I know the UK leaving the EU is a material change, but we haven't left yet, and until we do no one should speculate on the terms.

My only argument is regarding the timing, wait till Brexit actually happens.Let the politicians concentrate on Brexit first and foremost.Then if the Scots want a referendum let them have it. I honestly think most in England are past caring whether Scotland remains or not.

Apologies I misread your last post a bit.

I suppose the SNP aim is to start the ball rolling now. As if they wait till after the Brexit is completed to ask the question it could delay and hinder any process they may themselves have to go through to re join the EU. (should that be the case)

I can see the sense in it TBH. The material change is happening , article 50 is to be triggered next week. Why should Scotland hang around till the end of that to get an agreement in principle for another referendum. I'm pretty sure If Theresa May was to say OK you can have another referendum once the terms of Brexit have been sorted that would probably put it to bed.

But AFIA May's response thus far has just been don't ask me now. 

 

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1 hour ago, MickeyE said:

If the people get to decide then yes it is democracy. We have general elections roughly every 4 to 5 years. Is that not democratic because they're too close together.

Anyway, again you're ignoring the point. The independence referendum took place before the UK withdrew from the EU. Just watching Sturgeon on Sky news. apparently it was in their 2015 general election manifesto that if there was a "material change" in circumstances the SNP would call for another independence referendum. They even specifically listed as an example the UK taking Scotland out of the EU. so to be fair all they are doing now is following through on their manifesto promises.

Isn't that generally what we want politicians to do?

I know all this.

I'm just bored with it.

Time to actually do something and stop distracting with ins and outs of , yes and nos.

 

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I also have a strong dislike of political parties trying to stir "nationalism"

Read Orwell notes on nationalism, I can't say it better than he has.

The last decade has been particularly disgusting to me as it has been so divisive. I don't need any more us and them. Any more division. Time was you could disagree with someone politically and just get on with your life and friendship. Now you disagree and you're the enemy, the bigot, the racist etc.

The blatant trend to keep us divided and arguing among ourselves isn't even hidden anymore. It's out there for all of us to see.

I no longer give even a single f**k as to who is in charge or where they are based. I just want some accountability and for them to actually start acting like adults and do the job. Make the country better. Improve something. Be accountable. No more criminals or fraudsters. No more scandals (that don't even raise an eyebrow anymore as we all expect at least that from them).

Just get something done. Work towards something that isn't just another big PRcampaign that results in nothing.

It's beyond a bloody joke now.

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