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swole troll

First steroid cycle... It's not that difficult

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1 hour ago, sen said:

Great post! Although there's no way I'd be throwing left over gear away!!

Its a tough one to call and personally I wouldn't throw it away either

however I do believe the longer you have an open vial laying about the higher the risk of contamination 

All comes down to your own judgement really, I just wouldn't want someone reading my advice and keeping a half used vial laying about for 15 - 17 weeks then pinning it and getting an infection (unlikely to happen)

I did aim this thread predominantly at steroid novices that usually start out with the ridiculous notion of 'one cycle to get ahead then ill never use again'

For these people im sure they'll have no qualms ditching half a vial of test and then when they finally do crack and decide 'just one more cutting cycle' hopefully they'll have a better knowledge of these compounds and the potential risks of contamination and they can make their own decision on whether or not to use vials from their previous cycles/blasts 

 

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14 minutes ago, swole troll said:

Its a tough one to call and personally I wouldn't throw it away either

however I do believe the longer you have an open vial laying about the higher the risk of contamination 

All comes down to your own judgement really, I just wouldn't want someone reading my advice and keeping a half used vial laying about for 15 - 17 weeks then pinning it and getting an infection (unlikely to happen)

I did aim this thread predominantly at steroid novices that usually start out with the ridiculous notion of 'one cycle to get ahead then ill never use again'

For these people im sure they'll have no qualms ditching half a vial of test and then when they finally do crack and decide 'just one more cutting cycle' hopefully they'll have a better knowledge of these compounds and the potential risks of contamination and they can make their own decision on whether or not to use vials from their previous cycles/blasts 

 

Yeah your post was 100% the safest way to do things which is obviously what you wanna promote. Adding maybes, ifs and possiblies (not even a real word?) would just make it complicated which is what a first timer definitely doesn't want. 

 

Is this a sticky or going to be in the near future. I think it needs to be. 

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3 hours ago, sen said:

Yeah your post was 100% the safest way to do things which is obviously what you wanna promote. Adding maybes, ifs and possiblies (not even a real word?) would just make it complicated which is what a first timer definitely doesn't want. 

 

Is this a sticky or going to be in the near future. I think it needs to be. 

I'm hoping they pin it. Just makes it easily accessible to people and saves us a lot of time writing the same cycle out for people over and over again. 

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Great reading, I thought I'd done a good bit of research but you mention a couple of things I hadn't thought of

One question, you suggest running anastrozole at 0.5mg every day while on cycle as a starting guide, a few other places I've read seem to recommend lower dosages of 0.5 or even 0.25 every OTHER day while on cycle, so was wondering what the reason was behind your recommended dosage?

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6 minutes ago, takingnames said:

Great reading, I thought I'd done a good bit of research but you mention a couple of things I hadn't thought of

One question, you suggest running anastrozole at 0.5mg every day while on cycle as a starting guide, a few other places I've read seem to recommend lower dosages of 0.5 or even 0.25 every OTHER day while on cycle, so was wondering what the reason was behind your recommended dosage?

It says adjust as needed. It is not a dose set in stone. AI doses can differ from person to person. I have been up to 750mg test with 600mg EQ and only needed 0.5mg EoD where some might need 1mg ED. It is all individual and it is best to take a precautionary approach to begin with to avoid any issues, if you feel good at that dose after a month or so try and lower it and see how you feel, if you start to notice any symptoms, itchy nipples for instance then up the AI dose back to where it was to begin with to avoid problems.

As some people on here will tell you, gyno is no joke and surgery for it is best avoided at all costs. 

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11 minutes ago, Tomahawk said:

This is really good.. but wouldn't it be seen more if it were in the steroid section?

My thoughts also, still not a sticky yet either :( 

I have just bookmarked it to link to any newbie thread I find and would suggest others do the same. People should catch on eventually. 

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On 17/04/2016 at 0:11 AM, takingnames said:

Great reading, I thought I'd done a good bit of research but you mention a couple of things I hadn't thought of

One question, you suggest running anastrozole at 0.5mg every day while on cycle as a starting guide, a few other places I've read seem to recommend lower dosages of 0.5 or even 0.25 every OTHER day while on cycle, so was wondering what the reason was behind your recommended dosage?

you can NEVER give a cookie cutter answer on AI dosing 

what i will say though is that at about 50-70mg of test per week and the percentage of which it aromatases requires no AI (this is around what somebody natural produces) 

so by taking 700mg of test per week you are taking around 10x that which you would produce naturally (minus ester weight) so guess what happens to oestrogen in a bid to restore hormonal homoeostasis?  it shoots up

" From what I have seen, if a man goes over a total testosterone of about 600 ng/dl, he will very likely need an aromatase inhibitor

source - http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Aromatase_Inhibitors.aspx

to put that into perspective when im cruising on 125mg of testosterone and 500iu HCG per week my test levels are 30 nmol/L which equates to 864 ng/dl i keep my oestradiol at 50 pmol/L (range for men 28.0 - 156.0) by running 6.25mg aromasin ED (1/4 tab) 

now this is just at a slightly above range trt dose so imagine what happens to E2 when you start injecting 5-6-7 times that...

again on paper the calculations ive laid out would suggest that everyone requires higher dose AI but in reality its not the case however with this information id say you are better off starting slightly too high and adjusting based on sides rather than starting too low and getting itchy or puffy nipples and freaking out and throwing in all sorts of meds to try and stop it (gyno symptoms are very stressful for most people) 

this is also why i suggested anastrazole in the OP as you can rebound your E2 back up if you do take it too low

for the vast majority of people 0.5mg of arimidex is unlikely to flatten your E2 on 500mg of test 


"

Fat said:
Would running 1mg aden ED effect gains? Don't you need some estrogen?

 

not at all, since Arimidex SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES IGF-1:

 

just a point, arimidex is better with clomid, as arimidex raises test higher than nolva:

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBo...stosterone.htm

 

further nolva reduces IGF-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809

 

and arimidex increases IGF-1:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488

 

so i favour arimidex over nolva, even if arimidex costs a little more...

 

and, more importantly, 1mg arimidex will not drop your hormone levels to less than normal:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...centration.png

 

if you look at the blood levels of oestradiol, they are about the same for MEN and POST MENOPAUSAL women. Any way you look at it,If you have 5 times the hormonal level by your calculation, how is 2.5mg/week adequate when the recommended dose is 7mg/week??

 

The normal oestrodiol (top range) for men is 200pmol/L. so lets say by your numbers its 5x higher, so 1000pmol/L. now arimidex decreases serum oestrodiol in most studies by 85%, when taken at 1mg/day. So, (1-0.85)x1000=150pmol/L.

 

So as a result, even by your numbers, when taking the recommended 1mg/day of arimidex (which provides the 85% reduction), you still would have 150pmol/L, and the low end of the reference range is 50pmol/L. Its hardly like your even down at the low end...

"


source - https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/158795-gyno-starting-even-with-adex/

 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, swole troll said:

i tried to but it wouldnt let me

and now it wont let me tag any mods to request it to be moved lol 

 

I was hoping it could get pinned. 

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6 minutes ago, Quackerz said:

I was hoping it could get pinned. 

They don't seem to like stickying threads on here, especially in the AAS section.

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28 minutes ago, DLTBB said:

They don't seem to like stickying threads on here, especially in the AAS section.

I noticed, no idea why though, it seems to be really useful information that would benefit a lot of people. 

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It is a very good guide but not the only way to do things or the way some things should be done in certain circumstances . If there was a newbie section it would be a great place to have it as a basic pointer to the dark side.

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21 minutes ago, p_oisin22 said:

Good stuff mate. Curious though you rate arimidex over aromasin? Reasons? Not doubting you just interested for your view on why etc. 

in the post i actually state that in all circumstances bar first time steroid users i rate exemestane as the best aromatase inhibitor

 " why anastrazole and not exemestane?
anyone who knows me on this site knows im a strong proponent of aromasin over arimidex for a whole host of reasons however for new steroid users who do not understand how their body responds to steroids and aromatase inhibitors it is a lot easier to rectify mistakes with anastrazole than it is exemestane

if you push your e2 too low with anastrazole you can rebound it back up fairly quickly and adjust as needed, with exemestane you get no such privilege and you can end up spending a long time waiting for your e2 to rise again which will have a negative impact on lipid profile, joint integrity, mental health, libido and overall gains "



once you have an understanding of your required dose of AI i recommend all steroid users to switch to aromasin for the following reasons: 

(copy and paste of a post i made in a previous thread)
 

"Aromasin hands down

* zero impact on lipids

* suicide inhibitor 

* no interaction with tamoxifen 

* no oestrogen rebound

Possible downsides

* can take some time for body to start aromatasing enough test to bring e2 up if you tank levels (start low and adjust as needed to avoid this)

* harder to get hold of than arimidex"

you are correct in saying that aromasin is the weakest of the 3rd gen AI's however due to its method of action on aromatase this is largely irrelevant

that and the difference in aromatase reduction between the therapeutic doses of the 3 AI's is minimal 

here is another posting i made regarding the difference of strengths between the 3rd generation AI's 
 
"

"in the studies done on women with breast cancer at full therapeutic does theyre all fairly similar in aromatase inhibiting properties 

however in men this suppression isnt quite so profound but the strength of each compound remains in the same order in terms of aromatase inhibition so in theory your friend at the gym is right however the amount of difference between the two compounds at therapeutic dose is negligible

the reason id opt for aromasin over arimidex is because A ) it has no effect on lipids which will already be compromised by being on AAS and B ) it is a suicide inhibitor so massively reduces the risk of oestrogen rebound 

 

Table 1

Efficacy of aromatase suppression by three generations of AIs

Drug Dose % Inhibition
First generation
 Aminoglutethimide (1,3) 1 g 91
Second generation
 Fadrozole (100) 2 mg 82
 Vorozole (5) 1 mg 93
Third generation
 Letrozole (100,101) 2.5 mg 99
 Anastrozole (100,102) 1 mg 97
 Exemestane (100,103,104) 25 mg 98

AIs, aromatase in



source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2228389/



"Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77%" 

NOTE - they say "third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estrdiol/testosterone ration by 77%" they didnt specify which AI as theyre all of such similar strengths of aromatase inhibition and makes little overall difference to plasma estrodiol levels

source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/  "






(dont know whats going on with my fonts) Lastly id like to add that the therapeutic dose isnt the be all and end all due to half lives and overall blood serum levels, just because 25mg of aromasin is the therapeutic dose it doesnt mean that if 25mg is not bringing your E2 into range that you cannot double the dose (space it out) and further reduce E2 

the same applies to anastrazole and femara however due to the negative effect of these compounds on lipids regardless of overall E2 level its not really advisable to be running x2 - 2.5x the therapeutic dose of these two compounds

at the end of the day its all down to preference, personally id rather do anything i can to avoid further detriment to my lipid profile 

sorry to keep copy and pasting my old posts but ive put a lot of this information out there already and i still believe it to be true, so here is another C&P

"
 Oestrogen control is the most individual need of a male using AAS, we can safely assume that 500mg of testosterone for a newer steroid user is ample however the percentage at which that testosterone aromatases we cannot predict 

i for example need to take 1mg of anastrazole ED for anything over 500mg of testosterone, some guys this would completely crush their E2 but others require even more AI or sometimes the inclusion of a SERM

you basically need to trial and error your dosages ideally with blood work but its fairly easy to 'feel out' your required dose if you know the signs of both high and low oestrogen 


this guide is pretty accurate for sussing out where your levels are at if youre not willing to pay for bloods - 
http://www.superiormuscle.com/forums/steroid-articles/59096-estrogen-handbook" 

source- 

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1 hour ago, RUDESTEW said:

Great post by the way but it would be good if the science behind age was brought up for the extremely young guys thinking of jumping in .

I don't think people should jump on too early because of the risk of closing off growth plates prematurely  also I feel you should learn the main barbbell lifts and work on proper form before introducing ped's 

But in all fairness when someone's ready they're going to start up regardless and if they're reading this thread then all it comes down to is a decision as they have all the info they need in here 

I dont condone it im just saying that if people have made up their mind there isn't much I can say to sway it

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Great post @swole troll lots of useful information.   I'll be starting my first cycle this year and already have most of my bits and pieces together,  going off what I read here and elsewhere I got aromasin rather than adex for the reasons you mentioned previously (no effects on lipids, suicidal AI).

So my question is: with regards to initial dosing of aromasin, where best to start?

Also for a first timer, what's your view on switching to a cruise/trt dose after cycle?  I haven't planned this for definite and i do have all my PCT meds, but if I was getting to the end and knew id be wanting to get back on asap is there any point in putting my body through the stress of recovery just to get straight back on as soon as I'm recovered?

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15 minutes ago, Sphinkter said:

Great post @swole troll lots of useful information.   I'll be starting my first cycle this year and already have most of my bits and pieces together,  going off what I read here and elsewhere I got aromasin rather than adex for the reasons you mentioned previously (no effects on lipids, suicidal AI).

So my question is: with regards to initial dosing of aromasin, where best to start?

Also for a first timer, what's your view on switching to a cruise/trt dose after cycle?  I haven't planned this for definite and i do have all my PCT meds, but if I was getting to the end and knew id be wanting to get back on asap is there any point in putting my body through the stress of recovery just to get straight back on as soon as I'm recovered?

dose the aromasin 12.5mg EOD rather than ED, if you run into sides just up the dose to ED

like i keep saying aromasin is the superior 3rd gen AI i just feel that anastrazole is more idiot proof, if youve done your research (ive put most of it in these 'it's not that difficult' threads) you shouldnt have any problems

nothing wrong with staying on after 1st cycle as such 

some will disagree but i see it as if blast and cruise or cycle and cruise is an inevitable outcome for the near future then you may as well not sacrifice the gains you will partially lose coming off and going through PCT 

just make sure youre getting your bloods done and not taking the p1ss with dosing (especially on the cruises) 

EDIT - to clarify on my stance on staying on vs pct: I think if you are cycling once or twice per year and you are moderate with dosing and have no plans to compete then cycling will probably be the healthier option overall 

if you are hoping to compete or are planning to just 'cycle, pct, time off, repeat' over and over then youd be better off just running a trt dose in between cycles 

you can build an above natural physique and strength base with cycling however to be truly competitive it is in my opinion that youd be best off never coming off

and bear in mind that no matter which route you take it is highly likely if not certain that one day you will end up requiring testosterone replacement therapy 

 

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