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swole troll

PCT... It's not that difficult

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19 minutes ago, CJDR said:

@swole troll

Read the entire thread but wishing to clarify... Had blood work done. How to encorporate serm therapy if e2 or oestradiol is already below range once finished hcg? 

Would adding in tamoxifen lower e2 any lower? 

Or continue with your recommend clomid tamoxifen dosages. 

Thanks in advance 

SERMs block oestrogen at the receptors 

They do nothing to lower aromatization / the production of oestrogen 

So yes run the PCT regardless of oestradiol levels 

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@swole trollOk so would run it

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50

Nolva 40 then 6 weeks of 20

Aromasin 25 then lower to 12.5

Is the aromasin included also or would it drive down levels even lower. 

Thanks again 

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2 hours ago, CJDR said:

@swole trollOk so would run it

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50

Nolva 40 then 6 weeks of 20

Aromasin 25 then lower to 12.5

Is the aromasin included also or would it drive down levels even lower. 

Thanks again 

You don't need 40mg tamoxifen 

The therapeutic dose is 20mg, adding more than that won't make a difference 

Everything else looks fine 

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@swole troll

Great info here, thank you.

Finished a test and nnp course, doing some winstrol to see me through to hcg time, pct all in place as per your post. My query is from earlier in your post where you said you were going to run some clen during pct to see how it was. Well I have some to hand and want to know how I should use alongside my pct, duration, dosage etc.

Any help would be appreciated 

 

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14 minutes ago, tryst76 said:

@swole troll

Great info here, thank you.

Finished a test and nnp course, doing some winstrol to see me through to hcg time, pct all in place as per your post. My query is from earlier in your post where you said you were going to run some clen during pct to see how it was. Well I have some to hand and want to know how I should use alongside my pct, duration, dosage etc.

Any help would be appreciated 

 

so ive kind of changed  my stance on this / bit undecided 

the idea being that clen is muscle sparing and offers ime a significant strength boost (when compared to any otc supp, nothing on AAS of course) which would be beneficial during PCT 

i want to emphasize that this was not a suggestion to utilize clen to cut or drop body fat, you should be at a high side maintenance during PCT and what i mean by that is find what you think is maintenance and add 100kcal to try to best ensure you are absolutely not falling into a significant deficit at any point during your PCT 

so the thought process was clen for the above mentioned reasons alongside caloric maintenance to offer a performance boost in a bid to stave off catabolism however i am kind of of the thought process now that these benefits may be offset by the systemic stress and negative impact on sleep clen has 

so instead you could perhaps opt for ephedrine and caffeine pre workout and some ashwagandha post wo in order to try and get back to a parasympathetic state once the workout is over and even implement a second dosage of ashwagandha pre bed to help with sleep and to further lower cortisol.

i have not made a clear cut decision either way in regard to the benefits vs the negatives of running clenbuterol during PCT and am no longer in a position to experiment as i am almost certainly permanently hypogonadal after many years of suppression and besides i have no desire to try to recover my endogenous production at this point 

were i to use it id suggest tapering up to 40mcg and holding it there for the duration of PCT and instead of increasing the dosage further once you stop getting the direct stimulatory effect instead adding in a small dose of caffeine pre wo for the synergistic effect without the prolonged active life of clen potentially impacting sleep 

 

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@swole troll thank you, that is a wealth of information.  I will read and digest but yes my thoughts on the clen during pct was for any anti catabolic properties and was looking to see your opinion  on it for this purpose. I like the sound of what you outlined, want to do an aggressive pct and cover all bases with the intention of taking extended time off after a good few years of cycling on and off to see where my natural levels will be at. At 43 now I want to see where I stand before deciding how I go about any further use for the future.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

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Hi @swole troll thanks again for these, they are very useful and I feel like I am in debt to you!

I can see in some old comments on this thread, you originally recommended to run an AI for 5 weeks during the PCT and also once mentioned to taper of the AI a week before stopping Nolva.

The thread now says to run a AI for 2 weeks during PCT. So I assume you changed it based on some logic I am yet to learn (but eager to)

I know E2 control is personal and I have your other thread saved, but for the PCT, do I just stick to 2 weeks of AI? Or based on my own circumstances, do I potentially run it for 5?

Thanks again!

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1 hour ago, Mujlos said:

Hi @swole troll thanks again for these, they are very useful and I feel like I am in debt to you!

I can see in some old comments on this thread, you originally recommended to run an AI for 5 weeks during the PCT and also once mentioned to taper of the AI a week before stopping Nolva.

The thread now says to run a AI for 2 weeks during PCT. So I assume you changed it based on some logic I am yet to learn (but eager to)

I know E2 control is personal and I have your other thread saved, but for the PCT, do I just stick to 2 weeks of AI? Or based on my own circumstances, do I potentially run it for 5?

Thanks again!

Yes I did alter it as in most cases this was too much ai.

It's a part of PCT to be treated with kid gloves is ai dosing.

2 weeks will be ample to keep oestrogen down from the intratesticular tesoterone conversion.

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13 hours ago, swole troll said:

Yes I did alter it as in most cases this was too much ai.

It's a part of PCT to be treated with kid gloves is ai dosing.

2 weeks will be ample to keep oestrogen down from the intratesticular tesoterone conversion.

I'm going to have to disagree with this @swole troll.

Intratesticular aromatization is extremely important for normal spermatogenesis, (you should not use an AI during PCT or during hCG after cycle use). using an AI is proven to significantly reduce spermatogenesis. 

Many people use PCT (and hCG) not only to recover homeostasis but also for fertility reasons, taking an AI at this crucial time is seriously affecting the chances of fertility.

I would consider editing this out mate.

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1 hour ago, stargazer said:

I'm going to have to disagree with this @swole troll.

Intratesticular aromatization is extremely important for normal spermatogenesis, (you should not use an AI during PCT or during hCG after cycle use). using an AI is proven to significantly reduce spermatogenesis. 

Many people use PCT (and hCG) not only to recover homeostasis but also for fertility reasons, taking an AI at this crucial time is seriously affecting the chances of fertility.

I would consider editing this out mate.

Id argue that one should prioritize their goals 

Potential speed of hpta recovery or fertility 

It's not like using an AI during PCT is going to render someone lifelong infertile, at least not that I've seen (would be interested in seeing anything to suggest otherwise prior to editing it out) that and if an AI is so detrimental then your bigger concern isn't the 2 weeks I advise at the start of PCT but rather the 8-10-16 weeks the individual was using an aromatase inhibitor on cycle.

And if the goal is recovering fertility asap then youd be best served forgoing full recovery of the hpta and just running hcg and hmg until your partner is pregnant and then running your PCT (again assuming that impreganating your partner is of the highest urgency) 

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@swole troll & @stargazer

In my case, I would like the best possible chance at remaining fertile. My cycle will end July 5th. Im getting married July 18th and then some time after the honeymoon in September will probably start the “baby chat”.

Stargazer are you saying that taking an AI whilst on PCT is bad ? Or using an AI whilst on HCG is bad? 

This thread says to cut the HCG 3 days prior to starting PCT.  So there’s no HCG involved in the PCT, but the HCG is taking throughout the cycle along with a AI. 
 

And yes, I know the best chance to stay fertile would be to NOT do a cycle before someone points that out. I know the risks, would just like to use the best protocol for my goal.

Did a cycle in 2017 and had some sperm tested in 2019. They still work, albeit they a bit on the low & slow side. Had a Varicocele emobilization since then to free up the left testicle, which has seen an increase in test by 20%. So hopefully that helped the swimmers out a little. 

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12 minutes ago, Mujlos said:

All my views are ITT 

Stargazer may choose to pitch in with his advice

Which you choose is up to you (I'd suggest also doing further research of your own if still unsure) 

For on cycle just running hcg throughout Is often adequate for retaining fertility and certainly post cycle once recovered it's quite rare that one would suffer life long infertility due to a reasonable length of hpta suppression.

That said if you're really worried you can run 75iu of hmg every third day (this will mimic FSH just like hcg does LH) along with your 500iu of hcg for the duration of your cycle however I don't see this as necessary.

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On 04/03/2020 at 3:25 PM, swole troll said:

Id argue that one should prioritize their goals 

Potential speed of hpta recovery or fertility 

It's not like using an AI during PCT is going to render someone lifelong infertile, at least not that I've seen (would be interested in seeing anything to suggest otherwise prior to editing it out) that and if an AI is so detrimental then your bigger concern isn't the 2 weeks I advise at the start of PCT but rather the 8-10-16 weeks the individual was using an aromatase inhibitor on cycle.

And if the goal is recovering fertility asap then youd be best served forgoing full recovery of the hpta and just running hcg and hmg until your partner is pregnant and then running your PCT (again assuming that impreganating your partner is of the highest urgency) 

I agree but you know as well as i do that PCT is not going to aid recovery of the HPTA any faster than not using it.

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On 17/08/2015 at 11:21 AM, swole troll said:


you then run

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50                                        5 weeks total

Nolva   40/20/20/20/20/20/20                                         7 weeks total

Aromasin 25/  followed by 12.5 EOD       2 weeks total

Swole, 

 

I know you say to run the nolva and clomid together for the above.

Regarding the Aromasin 25 EOD/12.5EOD, can you run Arimidex? If so would it be 1mg EOD/0.5 the following week EOD? 
 

Thanks 

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27 minutes ago, Wildkid said:

Regarding the Aromasin 25 EOD/12.5EOD, can you run Arimidex? If so would it be 1mg EOD/0.5 the following week EOD? 

yes that's fine.

Read this thread to better understand how the AI's compare to one another 
 

 

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Just finished my 13 week cycle of Test E with 5 weeks of Var at the end. Results are very good! Up 7kg and looking to maintain as much as possible!

Going to follow @swole troll advice regarding training, rest, EAA’s and other PCT protocols.

Just had a quick question regarding what programs suit a good 4 day week split. I’ve seen Wendlers 5/3/1 with accessory, PHUL, nSUMs etc.

Ive been doing a very high volume (in terms of rep ranges and tempos) bodybuilding program since Feb, 5-6 days a week. Would like to change to something strength-hypertrophy to continue to ‘shock the muscle’ with a new stimulus to maintain as much size as possible?

Is that the best way to go? Or continue doing the same style of training for PCT and just drop the volume and to 4 days?

thanks!

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On 17/08/2015 at 11:21 AM, swole troll said:

Clomid 100/100/100/50/50                                        5 weeks total

Nolva   40/20/20/20/20/20/20                                         7 weeks total

What’s the difference between clomid and nolva? Everything Iv read up to now has basically said they’re the same as each other and interchangeable... cheers 

ps good information thanks 

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41 minutes ago, Aginger said:

What’s the difference between clomid and nolva? Everything Iv read up to now has basically said they’re the same as each other and interchangeable... cheers 

ps good information thanks 

Tamoxifen and clomiphene are both from the same family of drugs known as SERMs.

the difference I can list is that they both bind up to oestrogen receptors, including those on the pituitary gland and hypothalamus which is what triggers the cascade of signalling starting at the hypothalamus that not only is testosterone low but also oestrogen (due to the SERMs receptor blocking effect)

this in turns sparks the hypothalamus to kick into effect and start pumping out gnrh which the pituitary receives and subsequently releases LH and FSH which is received by the testicles that (hopefully) start to produce testosterone again.

That difference to the extent of my knowledge is down to each SERM blocking different ERs causing a synergistic effect of low oestrogen signalling with tamoxifen favoring the pituitary and clomiphene directly upregulating gonadotropins but they both do a bit of both much like HCG and HMG but with more balanced similarities.  

Sorry it's a bit of a weak answer, good question though, had to really think about that one and should probably brush up on my knowledge. 

In summary they are synergistic in achieving a common goal.

 

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14 minutes ago, Gymrat12 said:

I have a problem when I use serms that they elevate shbg do you have any idea how to lower it?  Will AIs do this job? 

Aromasin lowers SHBG.

Why is this of major concern to you though?

I'd assume your tanked testosterone levels would be of greater concern to rectify given your shbg will almost certainly correct itself on its own once you come off and recover.

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51 minutes ago, Gymrat12 said:

Is aromasin better for this purpose than other AIs? 

It's the only AI that does this.

Go careful though 

Crashed oestrogen is much! worse than elevated shbg and you'll have a hard time rectifying crashed oestrogen off cycle.

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