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I am the master....The iron is my Gimp!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I came across this, when reading Mick Harts blog on PCT.

It seems to be very different protocol than normal posts on here.

Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on this:

Far to many people of late are coming up with this comment about using Nolvadex as a PCT method and they cannot be SO wrong. Nolvadex is not for pct but for DURING the cycle. If you use Nolvadex and or Proviron AFTER the cycle ends than the problems can have already taken a hold and it will be too late. This is quite worrying. I would love to cut the nuts of the nob head that started this rumour somewhere along the line.

Nolvadex is a preventer and Proviron is a blocker - if you use them after then you can see the problem - the horse has already bolted.

Suggest the method as above and the use of Tribulus and Zinc throughout the course which should naturally regulate your own test levels eliminating the need for HCG of any PCT usage.
 

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lol, that is BS.

First of all an AI over a SERM during would be far better, for SHBG, IGF-1 and lower serum estrogen.

I dont like nolva only for PCT, but clomid works far better.

Trib is a worthless herb, and zinc should be in everyone diet and is a common defency in men, also needed for testosterone production and is a natural mild aromatase inhibitor.

I love Mick but trib, zinc is poo poo advice for PCT.

He suggests trib and zinc through course if he is referring to during the cycle will not regulate anything.

Proviron is not a blocker either:lol:
 

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Mitch
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hendrix said:
I came across this, when reading Mick Harts blog on PCT.

It seems to be very different protocol than normal posts on here.

Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on this:

Far to many people of late are coming up with this comment about using Nolvadex as a PCT method and they cannot be SO wrong. Nolvadex is not for pct but for DURING the cycle. If you use Nolvadex and or Proviron AFTER the cycle ends than the problems can have already taken a hold and it will be too late. This is quite worrying. I would love to cut the nuts of the nob head that started this rumour somewhere along the line.

Nolvadex is a preventer and Proviron is a blocker - if you use them after then you can see the problem - the horse has already bolted.

Suggest the method as above and the use of Tribulus and Zinc throughout the course which should naturally regulate your own test levels eliminating the need for HCG of any PCT usage.
Dont get this? how can you regulate your own test during a cycle Its shut down.....Imo. :confused1:
 

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There Is No Finish Line
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hackskii said:
lol, that is BS.

First of all an AI over a SERM during would be far better, for SHBG, IGF-1 and lower serum estrogen.

I dont like nolva only for PCT, but clomid works far better.

Trib is a worthless herb, and zinc should be in everyone diet and is a common defency in men, also needed for testosterone production and is a natural mild aromatase inhibitor.

I love Mick but trib, zinc is poo poo advice for PCT.

He suggests trib and zinc through course if he is referring to during the cycle will not regulate anything.

Proviron is not a blocker either:lol:
I'll take this guys advice.....Reps mate!!!!
 

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I am the master....The iron is my Gimp!
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It did my head in a bit when i first read it.

This guy has trained olympic athletes and top body builders, i just couldn't believe how different his approach was to everything else i have read.

Just when i thought i had researched PCT enough to know what i was doing, it was like a big spanner in the works.

Can't see how it can be right, just doesn't make any sense.
 

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Getting HUGE!
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I'm surprised this has come from Mick TBH.

It's been a few years since I've been on his board but he used to advocate the use of Nolva a few years back, I also never heard him talk of using trib and zinc in that way before.

I will say that Mick is a top bloke and I have a lot of respect for him, I've spoken to him a few times and he's a genuinely decent guy.
 

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Rich-B said:
What I mean is he used to advocate it for PCT.
Oh, so he kind of chopped himself...lol

He advocates nolva throughout with aromitizable steroids as well, but nolva is mildly liver toxic, and runnin that with lets say dbol makes no sense to me, when an AI will do the same, yet allow for less estrogen (serum), and a whole host of other benefits nolva does not offer.
 

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Pscarb said:
Mick is a nice bloke but he is old school unfortunatly this comes across in his advice to others
Ditto that, he is a really nice guy, I have had emails back and forth with him and he is a genuine nice guy and wants to help.

I talked to him about his ebook tears on the keyboard and it actually made me cry.

I have massive respect for the guy, and didnt really want to comment on his methods due to this, but hell, sometimes you just need to speak out.

I have seen guys crash hard, it is so sad, and due to it being basicly avoidable one should be slapped if he can help but bites his tongue.

Now I have debated Anthony Roberts and i have no problem giving him the abuse he deserves:lol:
 

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Rising from the ashes
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Wait a minute, Mick might be old school, but this PCT snobbery needs to end, it is getting ridiculous.

Before, guys got massive, guys got their wives pregnant.

Hell I even got mine pregnant (and yes, she is def mine before anyone asks :lol: ) while on a cycle of gen 750mg Test Enanthate weekly - no HCG through or any of that bullsh1t that you alledgedly "must" do these days.

Nowadays, everyone flaps like a hummingbird if they don't have their full compliment of quite frankly nasty anti cancer drugs in place for their must-do PCT.

You want to know the harsh truth of the matter? Having spanned both "era's" if you like, I don't see a marked increase in physique size or quality, nor do I see a marked increase in the number of bbers who can't get their missus up the duff.

Obv more people are using now, steroid use is more mainstream now, so far that reason alone more people are growing, but thats all it is.

Mick used to suggest Tamoxifen as part of a paper valid (I suppose, if you rate such things) PCT approach, in combination with HCG. The HCG spikes test levels, which in turn spikes estrogen levels via aromatisation, and hence back then the logical option (in fact only mainstream available option) was to use tamoxifen to stop you getting itchy tits.

Might not prove out on paper nowadays to all the PCT must do crowd, but hey, it appeared to work in most cases.

Obviously, times change, opinions (and meds available) change with that, Mick is as entitled to change his opinion as any of us.

Not that I agree with everything he ever said, but back before the internet, this guy was at the frontline keeping us all relatively safe with our cycles, and for that he is to be applauded.

This PCT snobbery is honestly getting really, really fvcking old in my opinion, and I know for a fact I am not alone by a long shot - just people are not wanting to speak out for fear of ridicule/being shot down...
 

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rs007 said:
Wait a minute, Mick might be old school, but this PCT snobbery needs to end, it is getting ridiculous.

Before, guys got massive, guys got their wives pregnant.

Hell I even got mine pregnant (and yes, she is def mine before anyone asks :lol: ) while on a cycle of gen 750mg Test Enanthate weekly - no HCG through or any of that bullsh1t that you alledgedly "must" do these days.

Nowadays, everyone flaps like a hummingbird if they don't have their full compliment of quite frankly nasty anti cancer drugs in place for their must-do PCT.

You want to know the harsh truth of the matter? Having spanned both "era's" if you like, I don't see a marked increase in physique size or quality, nor do I see a marked increase in the number of bbers who can't get their missus up the duff.

Obv more people are using now, steroid use is more mainstream now, so far that reason alone more people are growing, but thats all it is.

Mick used to suggest Tamoxifen as part of a paper valid (I suppose, if you rate such things) PCT approach, in combination with HCG. The HCG spikes test levels, which in turn spikes estrogen levels via aromatisation, and hence back then the logical option (in fact only mainstream available option) was to use tamoxifen to stop you getting itchy tits.

Might not prove out on paper nowadays to all the PCT must do crowd, but hey, it appeared to work in most cases.

Obviously, times change, opinions (and meds available) change with that, Mick is as entitled to change his opinion as any of us.

Not that I agree with everything he ever said, but back before the internet, this guy was at the frontline keeping us all relatively safe with our cycles, and for that he is to be applauded.

This PCT snobbery is honestly getting really, really fvcking old in my opinion, and I know for a fact I am not alone by a long shot - just people are not wanting to speak out for fear of ridicule/being shot down...
you got balls mate reps.
 

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Getting HUGE!
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rs007 said:
Wait a minute, Mick might be old school, but this PCT snobbery needs to end, it is getting ridiculous.

Before, guys got massive, guys got their wives pregnant.

Hell I even got mine pregnant (and yes, she is def mine before anyone asks :lol: ) while on a cycle of gen 750mg Test Enanthate weekly - no HCG through or any of that bullsh1t that you alledgedly "must" do these days.

Nowadays, everyone flaps like a hummingbird if they don't have their full compliment of quite frankly nasty anti cancer drugs in place for their must-do PCT.

You want to know the harsh truth of the matter? Having spanned both "era's" if you like, I don't see a marked increase in physique size or quality, nor do I see a marked increase in the number of bbers who can't get their missus up the duff.

Obv more people are using now, steroid use is more mainstream now, so far that reason alone more people are growing, but thats all it is.

Mick used to suggest Tamoxifen as part of a paper valid (I suppose, if you rate such things) PCT approach, in combination with HCG. The HCG spikes test levels, which in turn spikes estrogen levels via aromatisation, and hence back then the logical option (in fact only mainstream available option) was to use tamoxifen to stop you getting itchy tits.

Might not prove out on paper nowadays to all the PCT must do crowd, but hey, it appeared to work in most cases.

Obviously, times change, opinions (and meds available) change with that, Mick is as entitled to change his opinion as any of us.

Not that I agree with everything he ever said, but back before the internet, this guy was at the frontline keeping us all relatively safe with our cycles, and for that he is to be applauded.

This PCT snobbery is honestly getting really, really fvcking old in my opinion, and I know for a fact I am not alone by a long shot - just people are not wanting to speak out for fear of ridicule/being shot down...
Fair points.
 

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I am the master....The iron is my Gimp!
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I hope noone thinks i was having a go at Mick, i have never met him, but have a lot of respect for the guy for what he has achieved, the help he must of given to so many people over the years and his no nonsense approach in general.

My reason for starting this thread was not to start any arguments, but to gain more knowledge on why his approach seemed so different than the current and usual guidlines for PCT.

I wouldn't of probably looked twice if it was written from some Joe i had never heard of, but as it was someone i consider to be a bit of a bodybuilding icon, it through my whole mindset a tad.
 

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rs007 said:
Wait a minute, Mick might be old school, but this PCT snobbery needs to end, it is getting ridiculous.

Before, guys got massive, guys got their wives pregnant.

Hell I even got mine pregnant (and yes, she is def mine before anyone asks :lol: ) while on a cycle of gen 750mg Test Enanthate weekly - no HCG through or any of that bullsh1t that you alledgedly "must" do these days.

Nowadays, everyone flaps like a hummingbird if they don't have their full compliment of quite frankly nasty anti cancer drugs in place for their must-do PCT.

You want to know the harsh truth of the matter? Having spanned both "era's" if you like, I don't see a marked increase in physique size or quality, nor do I see a marked increase in the number of bbers who can't get their missus up the duff.

Obv more people are using now, steroid use is more mainstream now, so far that reason alone more people are growing, but thats all it is.

Mick used to suggest Tamoxifen as part of a paper valid (I suppose, if you rate such things) PCT approach, in combination with HCG. The HCG spikes test levels, which in turn spikes estrogen levels via aromatisation, and hence back then the logical option (in fact only mainstream available option) was to use tamoxifen to stop you getting itchy tits.

Might not prove out on paper nowadays to all the PCT must do crowd, but hey, it appeared to work in most cases.

Obviously, times change, opinions (and meds available) change with that, Mick is as entitled to change his opinion as any of us.

Not that I agree with everything he ever said, but back before the internet, this guy was at the frontline keeping us all relatively safe with our cycles, and for that he is to be applauded.

This PCT snobbery is honestly getting really, really fvcking old in my opinion, and I know for a fact I am not alone by a long shot - just people are not wanting to speak out for fear of ridicule/being shot down...
I hear ya mate, 30 years ago I didnt do PCT and nobody did.

I crashed back then but didnt know what the hell was going on.

But, tell that to a guy that has been on for a while and crashes hard and wont come off in fear of crashing and getting depressed.

This condition is called anabolic induced steroid hypogonadism (AISH), yes it is a clinical condition and is treated with HCG, clomid and nolva.

Trib and zinc does not fix this condition, I dont care who tells me it does.
 

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Whateverrrr
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I think Mick got caught up with the trib zinc fad of a few years back. I know for a fact he hasnt tried it himself due to not using for many years so im not sure he would have the same opinion had he been able to test on himself.

Which is what he used to do with all new gears and supps that turned up on his desk. Hence the ghb addiction which started off on his desk to try as the new "legal" wonder supplement to help you sleep and release more natrual gh!

Maybe hacks have a word with him. Give him a call or something. Maybe I should suggest to him to look into it more. I will have chat when I see him next.
 

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Rising from the ashes
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hackskii said:
I hear ya mate, 30 years ago I didnt do PCT and nobody did.

I crashed back then but didnt know what the hell was going on.

But, tell that to a guy that has been on for a while and crashes hard and wont come off in fear of crashing and getting depressed.

This condition is called anabolic induced steroid hypogonadism (AISH), yes it is a clinical condition and is treated with HCG, clomid and nolva.

Trib and zinc does not fix this condition, I dont care who tells me it does.
Hacks, fair to say we are good online mates so you know this is nothing personal, so don't take it (or make it :) ) such - they have a name for everything now. And even a fancy acronym as is the norm nowadays. Well, doesn't give it any more credence in my opinion.

Why?

Because yes, as with everything in life, you will get people who repond badly to something. So I am not saying this doesn't exist.

But no way does it exist on the realms of what is touted, you may have seen a case or even many cases, but I have seen prob many more cases of people just coming off with no problems. I am one of them.

Add to that, that all the effects can be psychologically mediated - tell a guy sugar pills will make him impotent amd most guys will be - then it just doesn't wash.

And put it like this.

The role of this intensive apparently vital PCT - to restore natural hormone profiles, inparticular testosterone production yes?

No amount of natural testosterone production is going to make up for a guy who has been on a typical test dosage for a long time. You are telling me, for example, a guy who has been on maybe 1g of test per week - reasonably common dose, low end for many in fact (regardless of what they admit to) - especially long term, will not crash even on a 100% successful PCT?

I call nonsense on that. A natural state can not compare to an enhanced state, muscle will be lost, mind will crash more because of that than anything else.

For the majority of users, reinforcing positive mindset (or not enforcing negative mindset as PCT fear does) would be way more effective in cancelling out any potential psychological issues at source... re evaluate thinking patterns, belief systems - with a set of effects as psychologically mediated as those associated with coming off gear, this can clearly be very effective.

And you talk about mental crashing and depression, and using clomid in the same sentence? The couple of times I have used it - more out of curiosity than anything else - it has depressed me way more than any crash from elevated test levels ever could - remember, test levels decline with age anyway, so we are kinda destined to (and hence evolved to deal with) this anyway to some extent - ie, for most, it isn't going to be that big a thing unless made so.

Honestly, Clomid is one of the nastiest little drugs I have ever used in my bodybuilding pursuits, beaten only by DNP after months of illness and depletion. Again, I am not the only one to think this, but perhaps one of a lesser number of people to publically state.

Said it before, and will say it again - I will only ever run a comprehensive PCT if I come off for a long period of time (say a year?) or come off indefinitely. And even then I would still allow plenty of time for things to settle out naturally first as I suspect they will, for the majority of people; again I state here obviously there will be people who genuinely react bad, but anecdotal evidence clearly shows they are a minority...

Its funny. I don't subscribe to what I deem bullsh1t, and funnily enough, I don't get a lot of the effects. I deem rampant libido from gear to be mostly bullsh1t, guys getting it just because they are told they should - I mean some elevation yeah, but none of this "shag anything that moves". And I don't believe I should instantly crash when I come off gear - and funnily enough, I don't. In fact - ask Brian - I normally experience a burst of strength gain in the period straight after a cycle, go figure. But then I keep training as hard as when on, keep eating as well, again I reckon most guys set them up for a crash by not keeping these up when they stop gear...
 

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rs007 said:
Hacks, fair to say we are good online mates so you know this is nothing personal, so don't take it (or make it :) ) such - they have a name for everything now. And even a fancy acronym as is the norm nowadays. Well, doesn't give it any more credence in my opinion.

Why?

Because yes, as with everything in life, you will get people who repond badly to something. So I am not saying this doesn't exist.

But no way does it exist on the realms of what is touted, you may have seen a case or even many cases, but I have seen prob many more cases of people just coming off with no problems. I am one of them.

Add to that, that all the effects can be psychologically mediated - tell a guy sugar pills will make him impotent amd most guys will be - then it just doesn't wash.

And put it like this.

The role of this intensive apparently vital PCT - to restore natural hormone profiles, inparticular testosterone production yes?

No amount of natural testosterone production is going to make up for a guy who has been on a typical test dosage for a long time. You are telling me, for example, a guy who has been on maybe 1g of test per week - reasonably common dose, low end for many in fact (regardless of what they admit to) - especially long term, will not crash even on a 100% successful PCT?

I call nonsense on that. A natural state can not compare to an enhanced state, muscle will be lost, mind will crash more because of that than anything else.

For the majority of users, reinforcing positive mindset (or not enforcing negative mindset as PCT fear does) would be way more effective in cancelling out any potential psychological issues at source... re evaluate thinking patterns, belief systems - with a set of effects as psychologically mediated as those associated with coming off gear, this can clearly be very effective.

And you talk about mental crashing and depression, and using clomid in the same sentence? The couple of times I have used it - more out of curiosity than anything else - it has depressed me way more than any crash from elevated test levels ever could - remember, test levels decline with age anyway, so we are kinda destined to (and hence evolved to deal with) this anyway to some extent - ie, for most, it isn't going to be that big a thing unless made so.

Honestly, Clomid is one of the nastiest little drugs I have ever used in my bodybuilding pursuits, beaten only by DNP after months of illness and depletion. Again, I am not the only one to think this, but perhaps one of a lesser number of people to publically state.

Said it before, and will say it again - I will only ever run a comprehensive PCT if I come off for a long period of time (say a year?) or come off indefinitely. And even then I would still allow plenty of time for things to settle out naturally first as I suspect they will, for the majority of people; again I state here obviously there will be people who genuinely react bad, but anecdotal evidence clearly shows they are a minority...

Its funny. I don't subscribe to what I deem bullsh1t, and funnily enough, I don't get a lot of the effects. I deem rampant libido from gear to be mostly bullsh1t, guys getting it just because they are told they should - I mean some elevation yeah, but none of this "shag anything that moves". And I don't believe I should instantly crash when I come off gear - and funnily enough, I don't. In fact - ask Brian - I normally experience a burst of strength gain in the period straight after a cycle, go figure. But then I keep training as hard as when on, keep eating as well, again I reckon most guys set them up for a crash by not keeping these up when they stop gear...
interesting thoughts :cool2:
 
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