UK-Muscle.co.uk Forum banner
1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
MT2 rocks
Joined
·
446 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive got afew questions about the Keto-diet

1. Since i started on sunday i seem to have got more and more grumpy and i lose my temper in about 10 seconds.Will this improve when im in ketosis? as my family and friends are getting it with both barrels atm.

2. Ive only been training for 2.5 years and have allways bulked, this is the first time ive tried to drop my body fat.Will i lose alot of the muscle that ive worked so god dam hard to get?

3. With reference to the above question, if i am going to lose muscle would i lose less if i was on an enanthate cycle while doing the diet.

4. Im four days in now and im down 4 pounds,i know this aint gonna be fat so is it gonna be water?please tell me its not muscle,lol

5. If im 18% bf @ 15.4 stone how many pounds of fat do i need to lose to get to 14/15% bf?.

6. Since starting the diet im not sleeping well at all,is this normal? plus im getting very hot/sweaty while in bed too, is this also normal AND im finding very hard to get out of bed in the morning!.

Sorry for all the questions, any help would be great,

Steve:ban:
 

·
Complete Basket Case
Joined
·
4,766 Posts
For me it took about a week the first time to get into ketosis but I didn't get the fuzzy head or tiredness that some do.

losing muscle? shouldn't do if you train because you are telling the body you need the muscle. If you sat on your butt then yes.

with gear.. no idea, never done it so can't tell you

yes, its water... probably be 8-10 lbs of water to start.

sleeping will change but stabilise after a week or so.

I'm probably going to go down the same route this week myself.... not losing fat on a straight calorie deficit so returning to a keto diet.
 

·
Complete Basket Case
Joined
·
4,766 Posts
it doesn't matter....

if you are in ketosis you are in ketosis. don't panic though if it drops to neutral though unless you havent been drinking enough water. The stick is measuring the ketones in the urine, the more you drink, the more diluted they are.
 

·
Retired
Joined
·
39,602 Posts
McQueen said:
Ive got afew questions about the Keto-diet

1. Since i started on sunday i seem to have got more and more grumpy and i lose my temper in about 10 seconds.Will this improve when im in ketosis? as my family and friends are getting it with both barrels atm.

Yes, once in ketosis you will feel way better and have alot of energy.

2. Ive only been training for 2.5 years and have allways bulked, this is the first time ive tried to drop my body fat.Will i lose alot of the muscle that ive worked so god dam hard to get?

Some, but I have found a keto diet to actually be sparing of muscle myself.

3. With reference to the above question, if i am going to lose muscle would i lose less if i was on an enanthate cycle while doing the diet.

Yes, this will help avoid catabolism during a calorie deficit, so yah, less muscle will be lost.

4. Im four days in now and im down 4 pounds,i know this aint gonna be fat so is it gonna be water?please tell me its not muscle,lol

Water! Fat holds far less water than carbohydrates about 6 times less.

5. If im 18% bf @ 15.4 stone how many pounds of fat do i need to lose to get to 14/15% bf?.

I dont know how much a stone is.....lol

6. Since starting the diet im not sleeping well at all,is this normal? plus im getting very hot/sweaty while in bed too, is this also normal AND im finding very hard to get out of bed in the morning!.

Carbohydrates to tend to aid in sleeping, all this will change once in ketosis.

Sorry for all the questions, any help would be great,

Steve:ban:
I have not read the rest of the posts, but how many grams of protein, fats and carbs are you taking in right now?

What foods are you eating if you dont mind me asking?

Take some melatonin, that stuff is killer for sleep and is one of the best anti-oxidants/anti-cancer hormones there is. Great stuff, I take 3mg a night and I go down hard and have nice dreams. That will sort your sleeping out.
 

·
MT2 rocks
Joined
·
446 Posts
Im following this diet to the letter altho it was posted in 2005, has there been any adjustments to it since then?

Meal 1:

8 whole eggs

Meal 2:

Two scoops of Extreme Protein with 1 serving of natural peanut butter with water.

Meal 3:

8 oz. of lean meat with large bowl of green salad with 1 Tbsp flax/Olive oil and vinegar

Meal 4:

Two scoops of Extreme Protein with 1 serving of natural peanut butter with water.

Meal 5:

8 oz. lean meat with 1 serving of cashews/peanuts

Meal 6:

8 oz. lean meat with 1 serving of cashews/peanuts.

pick one day a week normally a sat for one Hour eat 300 g of carbs then back on the diet.

do 1 session of cardio in the morning before breakfast of 40min walking is best as any thing over 65% of max and you will burn carbs instead of fat.

I did ask on that thread what time the last meal was but not had a reply also where would the training fit in,in that day or doesnt it matter?
 

·
Retired
Joined
·
39,602 Posts
I am going to go against the grain here, but drop the powders and eat meats, it does not matter if it is lean or not lean, in fact the diet will work very well using fatty meats even sausage and bacon.

Now before anyone jumps on me there is evidence that lipid profiles improve in ketosis, so no need to compromise fats for lean meats.

The object here or focus is actutally fats, not protein, too much protein and it will kick you out of ketosis and suggest that protein be used for fuel, you do not want that.

Eating fatty meats on a keto diet is just fine, I dont care what anyone says about this.

This diet is not for trying to get healthy, this diet is designed for losing fat, and it does a good job of it at that.

Might want to consider tossing in some good fats though, and a good multiple vitamin, also get some kelp, that will help the thyroid.

Also, greens that have fiber in them so you wont be constipated like this diet tends to do most people.

Also, if you want to do a refeed then it is last two meals carbs only, no fats or protein.
 

·
Retired
Joined
·
39,602 Posts
Vince said:
I guess there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.

I do think protein intake should be optimal, just my 2p worth from first hand experience.
But, we are trying to burn fat while preserving the muscle, once you put priority on protein to some point it turns counterproductive.

there was a guy many years ago I have to look him up, ate only fatty meats for 1 year, and I am talking about eating alot of fat, he was in a clinic for 1 year to test this theory out in I think it was 1928, after the year was up, he had lost alot of fat, and actually was quite healthy, they said it could not be done, the medical community was scratching their heads with this one, he was fully monitored and was fine.

Keto diets really started back in the 1860's and the guy that wrote a book on it was seriously ridiculed, but he did the diet to lose weight and he went to every dietition back then. He lost the weignt and had better health following a keto type diet.

Remember back then they had no protein powders, they dipped their meat in fats for flavor.

Remember the focus here, it is fat loss while sparring muscle, that does not mean 50% protein, 50% fats, the ratio is actually higher in fats, that is what forces the body into ketosis.

Or easier said, switches the body from being a sugar burner to a fat burner, and that fat being your fat, this is why even the lipid profile improves.
 
G

·
Here you go.

The premise of the diet is high protein (about 1- 1 1/2 gram per pound), moderate fat (about 1/2 g per lb) and low low carbs (no direct sources of carbs). During this diet, the brain goes into ketosis (it uses ketone bodies for energy-- fats) and thus the energy requirements by the body can almost all be supplied by fats (which you'll be taking in plenty of). The only activity that uses carbs will be the weight workout which may use 40grams per workout. You will get these 40g indirectly through the foods you'll be eating. As a backup, the cheat meal you'll be having once per week will provide a storehouse of glycogen (glucose) in case of emergency. So, you see, very little gluconeogenesis in the liver will be occurring. If we keep cortisol low (by

restricting STIMULANTS) we'll ensure that muscle is spared!

HAVE YOUR CHEAT MEAL ON THE SAME DAY EVERY WEEK, last meal of the

day so you dont cheat again.

Fiber helps burn fat! Everyone should take fiber 2x per day. Fiber actually helps increase the absorption of calcium.

When following my diet plan (which includes getting your brain into ketosis), there can be NO starchy carbs eaten!

For a 200lb man:

MEAL #1

5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)

MEAL #2

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)

MEAL #3

"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)

MEAL #4

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5

"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6

SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

For a 250lb+ man:

Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs

Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds

Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter

Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil

Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB

Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Remember, it takes 3-4 days to get into a strong ketosis where your brain is using ketone bodies (fats), instead of carbs, for energy. Be patient.

Many times I'll switch to an alternatiing diet where one day it will be protein/fat......then another protein/vegetables (very little fat). The great thing about the body and fat is that ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS can be stored in the muscle for several days, up to 2 weeks......therefore, once an adequate storehouse of Essential Fats are built up, the body can be "tortured" a little and it still won't give up muscle (that's assuming you're still taking in adequate protein. Protein can't be stored).

1oz almonds equals 6g carbs (2 of those grams are fiber) and 2oz equals 12g of carbs.

With the beef meal (any fatty protein meal), you should have the green salad with 1 tablespoon of Olive or Mac oil INSTEAD of the nuts. Only eat the nuts with the LEAN PROTEIN MEAL (chicken, turkey, lean fish)

The best fat sources come from the essential fatty acids-- Omega-6 and Omega-3's. Most of us get plenty of Omega-6s from cooking oils, ect..........however the Omega-3's are harder to get. I recommend WHOLE OMEGA-3 EGGS, FaTTY FISHS like SALMON and SWORDFISH and TUNA and MACKEREL, ALMONDS and WALNUTS have some OMEGA-3's (as well as OMEGA-6s). ANother great fat source is MONOUNSATURATES such as EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL and MACADAMIA NUT OIL.....they aren't essential but they are great for the metabolism (great source of energy) and they are extremely good for your heart.

You're not getting any indirect sources of carbs (just from the 1 spoonful of PB.... you may want to have at least one 1/3cup nuts meal. Remember, Olive or Macadamia nut oil is predominantly a MONOUNSATURATED FAT (good for the heart, but not essential)........ the nuts, and fish oil have the essential fats in them. Also, with regard to FLAX SEED OIL, the OMEGA-3 Fatty Acids found in them (alpha-linolenic acid) has a very poor conversion to DHA and EPA (Essential Omega-3 intermediates) in the HUMAN........therefore, you're much better off taking in FISH OILS (that already contain DHA/EPA) than FLAX SEED OIL.

Once fat loss slows, I always increase cardio first, then I increase the amount of fat burners (clen, cytomel, lipolyze).........After those other methods are exhausted, only then, do I play with the diet.

Always eat BEFORE lifting........never BETWEEN lifting and cardio.

Artificial Sweetners:

The artificial sweetener itself (eg. aspartame, sucralose) wont cause a problem. It's what some companies complex it with. For example, EQUAL and SPLENDA combine their aspartame and sucrolose with 1g of maltodextrin........whereas, in diet drinks, they don't do that. So, diet drinks are okay, SPLENDA and EQUAL must be used in moderation (STEVIA BALANCE is fine though since they use inulin fiber instead of maltodextrin

Forget using:

-MCT's are a waste when you're dieting. If you're gonna use FATS for an energy source, they might as well serve a function in the body. MCTs are useless. They can only serve as a source of energy!

-Arginine is not going to do anything. It will DO something; just not dramatic.

Cardio:

CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY

never do less than 20 min per session

The BOTTOM LINE is that low intensity cardio (while you might need more of it) ensures that fat is utilized and muscle is spared (especially while on my high protein/moderate fat/low carb diety).

Do you feel the treadmill is better for cardio, or is the bike(stationary or recumbent) just as good? As long as the intensity is LOW, it doesn't matter which piece of equipment you use

Q&A:

Q: Is gluconeogenesis inevitable in your diet?

Dave Palumbo: NO

Q: If so do I need to consume more than 1.5 grams of protein per lb of LBM so as not to lose muscle?

Dave Palumbo: The fat spares the protein....when the brain is in ketosis, the carbohydrate requirements are very very low.

Q: How much (percentage) of my protein intake would be turned into glucose (gluconeogenesis)?

Dave Palumbo: Very little (maybe 10%)

Q: What do you think of submersion in cold water as a means of burning bodyfat (thermogenesis)?

Dave Palumbo: HOCUS POKUS!

Q: How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat?

Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS

Q: Do you think drinking lots of Green Tea is beneficial to fat loss?

Dave Palumbo: Somewhat helpful.

Q: How much is the ideal dosage of Omega 3 for a 220 lb. individual ?

Dave Palumbo: Try to take in about 9g per day

Q: How many Tbs of peanut butter could I have instead of 1/2 cup of cashewnuts?

Dave Palumbo: 2 tablespoons, two tablespoons of Peanut Butter contains 190 calories and 16 grams of fat (so 1.5 tablespoon equals about 12 grams fat) ...whereas......... 2oz (1/3 cup) almonds (about 40 almonds) = 12g fat

Q: I want to add that if I cant find the omega eggs here locally. Can I use international egg whites and just take an omega supplement?

Dave Palumbo: You can get away with 5 whole eggs (regular ones) once a day........not a big deal. You'll be burning up all that fat anyway.

Q: Whats the max cups # of coffee ( no sugar ) can consume on Dave's diet ?

Dave Palumbo: Try to limit to 2 cups per day.......I realize that towards the end of the diet you may need more to help you get through the day.

Q: If you cook tilapia in macadamon nut oil?do you coun't the oil as your fat for that meal! Depends how much you use.

Dave Palumbo: If you just grease the pan with it, no!

Q: what is the protein,carb and fat ratio for offseason

Dave Palumbo: 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

Q: and the ratio for contest prep.

Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs
 

·
Retired
Joined
·
39,602 Posts
Couple of things I do not agree with.

Submersion in cold water will force the body to maintain heat, MMA dudes do this.

So, looking at that logically, it takes energy to keep the core temp up, same as the cold water, there is a mathmatical equation for that and it is about 150 calories for a gallon of ice water.

Personally, I think dave borrowed most of the information from Atkins type diet and applied it to bodybuilding, which the protein is pretty damn high to get into ketosis along with the carbs.

You do not need that much protein in your diet to maintain lean muscle mass when dieting, I dont care what magazine he works for.

I dont agree and I am not alone.

McQueens original diet is a keto diet as he only has between 10 to 20 grams of carbs in his diet.

Atkins diet is very simple, eat all the protein and fat you want, keep the carbs under 30 grams a day............Simple.
 
G

·
hackskii said:
Couple of things I do not agree with.

Submersion in cold water will force the body to maintain heat, MMA dudes do this.

So, looking at that logically, it takes energy to keep the core temp up, same as the cold water, there is a mathmatical equation for that and it is about 150 calories for a gallon of ice water.

Personally, I think dave borrowed most of the information from Atkins type diet and applied it to bodybuilding, which the protein is pretty damn high to get into ketosis along with the carbs.

You do not need that much protein in your diet to maintain lean muscle mass when dieting, I dont care what magazine he works for.

I dont agree and I am not alone.
I am certaintly not saying your method is wrong mate it is perfectly correct. I have used the Dave P diet as have many top competitors and it works great BUT you have guys who say it did not work very well so its all up to the individual.

I just thought i would add some various info from one source to the thread:)
 

·
Retired
Joined
·
39,602 Posts
Con said:
I am certaintly not saying your method is wrong mate it is perfectly correct. I have used the Dave P diet as have many top competitors and it works great BUT you have guys who say it did not work very well so its all up to the individual.

I just thought i would add some various info from one source to the thread:)
And you did, thanks bro, I was not knocking you in any way for posting that.

I have never read Daves work, so thanks for posting that.

The one problem I do see is if you are trying to get into ketosis, not everyone will with Daves approach, for two reasons.

First the protein is too high, second the carbs are a bit high too.

Generally speaking if you cant seem to get into ketosis, lower the carbs and up the fats.

He did mention that the diet is probably ok, but from a medical standpoint, back in the early 1900's they treated epilepsy(sp) with keto diets, and they worked well, even for years on a keto diet this was a fix. Kids were checked and they were fine on it.

Even to this day if anti-seizure medications dont work for eplipsy, they still use a keto diet.

They have followed kids for years and they were fine.

But, thanks man for posting that, I can see his approach, I just never read it before.....

I dont visit Bodybuilding.com very often......lol..................
 

·
Retired
Joined
·
39,602 Posts
Con said:
Well you wont find it there:D Dave is an MD man:thumbup1:
See, just goes to show how much I follow dude...........lol

At the Olimpia he did an interview with bodybuilding.com and I just assumed he was from there.

Vince said:
As i said more than one way to skin a cat...just have to find what works for you.

I found 16 weeks on Palumbo's diet to be just perfect for me.
Yes, true words here, many factors apply here, no one shoe fits all.

The fact that his diet worked for you suggests it does work.

I appreciate the fact that you have shared on this thread, con too, internet boards are all about sharing information.

This is a good thread and I like participating.

Thanks lads for your posts......
 

·
Gobby
Joined
·
10,535 Posts
hackskii said:
I dont visit Bodybuilding.com very often......lol..................
Oh dear, have you upset them? :lol:

And have you been reading 'The Diet Delusion'? (Good Calories, Bad Calories in the US) - fantastic book.

I did a keto diet once and concluded the best keto snack food was pork scratchings :lol: Half fat, half protein.....
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top