UK-Muscle.co.uk Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Pick up, put down, repeat
Joined
·
93 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything giving ideal doses per kg of body weight for any steroids beyond therapeutic i doses for anorexia etc

So…. What are peoples thoughts or are there any studies with the purpose of muscle building for doses?

Always hear the 500mg/week test but surely if your 5’ and your 6’ 9 that 500 will have differing effects?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
336 Posts
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything giving ideal doses per kg of body weight for any steroids beyond therapeutic i doses for anorexia etc

So…. What are peoples thoughts or are there any studies with the purpose of muscle building for doses?

Always hear the 500mg/week test but surely if your 5’ and your 6’ 9 that 500 will have differing effects?
By the same theory 2 people of the same height following the same diet would look exactly the same.

Yet a 6 ft guy can eat 6k calories to bulk and another will only need 3500.

Genetics comes into play massively plus factors like job diet training experience and training style.

generally speaking hormones effect everyone differently to an extent but once past your genetic potential the more mass you have the more drugs you need to keep the mass.

ime using doses on the lower side helps in 2 ways 1. You don’t do the yo yo that everyone does by getting bigger then either thinking I need to slow this up or coming off and not being mentally prepared to eat more and keep going to the gym although you don’t feel-like you did previously. 2. Your body adapts to the size and strength gains almost a muscle maturity and helps prevent injuries and longevity in the gym.

I have pushed doses high in my early twenties but now prefer more modest doses at min running 600 mg of test and 300tren trying to recomp and feeling good I’m 6’3 18’stone 1 lb 16 percent body fat always trained strongman and powerlifting now adapting into a little bit more bodybuilding as late thirties and picked up a few injuries over the years.
This is just my experience and views for what they are worth
 

·
Registered
Pick up, put down, repeat
Joined
·
93 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
By the same theory 2 people of the same height following the same diet would look exactly the same.

Yet a 6 ft guy can eat 6k calories to bulk and another will only need 3500.

Genetics comes into play massively plus factors like job diet training experience and training style.

generally speaking hormones effect everyone differently to an extent but once past your genetic potential the more mass you have the more drugs you need to keep the mass.

ime using doses on the lower side helps in 2 ways 1. You don’t do the yo yo that everyone does by getting bigger then either thinking I need to slow this up or coming off and not being mentally prepared to eat more and keep going to the gym although you don’t feel-like you did previously. 2. Your body adapts to the size and strength gains almost a muscle maturity and helps prevent injuries and longevity in the gym.

I have pushed doses high in my early twenties but now prefer more modest doses at min running 600 mg of test and 300tren trying to recomp and feeling good I’m 6’3 18’stone 1 lb 16 percent body fat always trained strongman and powerlifting now adapting into a little bit more bodybuilding as late thirties and picked up a few injuries over the years.
This is just my experience and views for what they are worth
So would you say that 500mg is just a recommended dose to start from untill you get to determine how your body responds on an individual basis?
 

·
Looking Freaky
Joined
·
2,077 Posts
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything giving ideal doses per kg of body weight for any steroids beyond therapeutic i doses for anorexia etc

So…. What are peoples thoughts or are there any studies with the purpose of muscle building for doses?

Always hear the 500mg/week test but surely if your 5’ and your 6’ 9 that 500 will have differing effects?
IMO 5-10mg/kg of LBM is a good rule of thumb to dose your cycle.

6'9, 240lb/109kg, 15% BF male is an FFMI of 20.3
5'6, 143lb/65kg, 15% BF male is an FFMI of 20.4

both those individuals are proportionally, equally muscular but have a different amount of tissue, that issue has the receptors in that you want to trigger.

6'9 has 92.6kg of LBM
5'6 has 55.3kg of LBM

6'9 dosing protocol would be 463 to 926/week
5'6 dosing protocol would be 276 to 553mg/week

that seems entirely reasonable to me and in some of the literature, the 300/week dose in the Bhasin studies averaged 78.4kg at 177cm, 67.3kg of LBM. That group gained 5.2kg LBM, 600/week gained 7.9kg

dosing based on the rule of thumb, 336 to 673mg/week.

start your cycle at the lower dose, titrate up as needed, as soon as gains slow.

as soon as you leave the realms of humanity, those rules go out of the window. if your FFMI is above 26/27, you're gonna probably be looking at 15-20mg/kg range.

6ft tall, 250lb, 13% BF guy with an FFMI of 29
98.3kg LBM

1475 to 1966mg per week dosing of anabolics and you will only have generally gotten that big with the use of other compounds, like GH and probably insulin. so i'd say adding in GH before jumping into the big boy dosing would be a bit more sensible and potentially "healthier" than high dosed AAS. AAS ultimately are more "harmful" with long term exposure than GH and Slin in non-insane amounts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
366 Posts
Yes, whatever you balls put out is your ideal test to body weight ratio, if injecting we usually try to overdose slightly so that muscle growth is a prominent side effect lol that being said, anything from 250mg per week upwards is going to make a difference, but honestly, food is way more anabolic than actual anabolics, if you get the food right, even 250mg test a week is gonna make a real good difference. Take a gram a week, eat like crap, and whatever happens isn't going to be sustainable at all.
 

·
Registered
Pick up, put down, repeat
Joined
·
93 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for all the replies! Very interesting replies especially @godsgifttoearth s in depth one.

So I’m gonna throw out another question now, (these numbers are just to make it easier for me to explain) 1g of test VS 250test, 250deca, 250tren, 250eq is there an advantage to mixing compounds but with the same total? Do they all work on different receptors?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,064 Posts
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything giving ideal doses per kg of body weight for any steroids beyond therapeutic i doses for anorexia etc

So…. What are peoples thoughts or are there any studies with the purpose of muscle building for doses?

Always hear the 500mg/week test but surely if your 5’ and your 6’ 9 that 500 will have differing effects?
There are no rules. Try and use as little as you can while still getting the benefits rather than smashing a shit load of gear and having to take another shit load of drugs to stop the side effects.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,064 Posts
IMO 5-10mg/kg of LBM is a good rule of thumb to dose your cycle.

6'9, 240lb/109kg, 15% BF male is an FFMI of 20.3
5'6, 143lb/65kg, 15% BF male is an FFMI of 20.4

both those individuals are proportionally, equally muscular but have a different amount of tissue, that issue has the receptors in that you want to trigger.

6'9 has 92.6kg of LBM
5'6 has 55.3kg of LBM

6'9 dosing protocol would be 463 to 926/week
5'6 dosing protocol would be 276 to 553mg/week

that seems entirely reasonable to me and in some of the literature, the 300/week dose in the Bhasin studies averaged 78.4kg at 177cm, 67.3kg of LBM. That group gained 5.2kg LBM, 600/week gained 7.9kg

dosing based on the rule of thumb, 336 to 673mg/week.

start your cycle at the lower dose, titrate up as needed, as soon as gains slow.

as soon as you leave the realms of humanity, those rules go out of the window. if your FFMI is above 26/27, you're gonna probably be looking at 15-20mg/kg range.

6ft tall, 250lb, 13% BF guy with an FFMI of 29
98.3kg LBM

1475 to 1966mg per week dosing of anabolics and you will only have generally gotten that big with the use of other compounds, like GH and probably insulin. so i'd say adding in GH before jumping into the big boy dosing would be a bit more sensible and potentially "healthier" than high dosed AAS. AAS ultimately are more "harmful" with long term exposure than GH and Slin in non-insane amounts.
Good post big boy!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
391 Posts
Thanks for all the replies! Very interesting replies especially @godsgifttoearth s in depth one.

So I’m gonna throw out another question now, (these numbers are just to make it easier for me to explain) 1g of test VS 250test, 250deca, 250tren, 250eq is there an advantage to mixing compounds but with the same total? Do they all work on different receptors?
in total 1g Test vs. 1g of mixed 19nors and testosterone compounds would yield the same amount of muscle gain, but I do think that the second option would yield less fat accumulation because of different pathways and secondary benefits of these compounds.
 

·
Looking Freaky
Joined
·
2,077 Posts
Thanks for all the replies! Very interesting replies especially @godsgifttoearth s in depth one.

So I’m gonna throw out another question now, (these numbers are just to make it easier for me to explain) 1g of test VS 250test, 250deca, 250tren, 250eq is there an advantage to mixing compounds but with the same total? Do they all work on different receptors?
so you've seen the androgenic:anabolic ratings, yeah?

so when you start mixing stuff, what a more anabolic compound allows you to do, is get generally the same about of anabolism as testosterone at a lesser dose, or a great level of anabolism with the same doses....up to a point.

there is only so much protein you can make in a single minute, hour, day, week, month. its capped to your metabolic rate and the bigger you get, the more protein breakdown you get. it gets to a point where chucking more and more at a situation is just ramping up sides for no increase in muscle gains as you need to reduce muscle protein breakdown, which is why people sort of get stuck around that FFMI of 26/27 without turning to something like insulin, which reduces protein breakdown.

so in your scenario of 1g of test.

i'd be confident that something like 400 test 400 deca (800 total) would at the very least match 1g of test but in most scenarios surpass it. if you only measured pure dry protein, you'd probably also find 400 test 300 primo would match the 1g test only.

what lowering the dose does, or using different compounds is let you modulate the sides you don't want. 1g of test would have my BP through the roof even on ARB's, i would also need to be on an AI. I could do 400 test 300 primo likely with no BP or e2 issues. when that combo of test and primo stopped with results and i didn't want to push higher, i could go to deca at 300 instead of primo. when deca stopped, tren may have the potential to help go a bit further as it tends to reduce muscle breakdown a bit. i'd also have the option of increasing the doses of compounds higher within those mg/kg rules of thumb i gave you.

its a balancing act. find your starting point, which for me, is the max test dose you can take without an AI and from there you can add in secondary or tertiary compounds.
 

·
Registered
Pick up, put down, repeat
Joined
·
93 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
so you've seen the androgenic:anabolic ratings, yeah?

so when you start mixing stuff, what a more anabolic compound allows you to do, is get generally the same about of anabolism as testosterone at a lesser dose, or a great level of anabolism with the same doses....up to a point.

there is only so much protein you can make in a single minute, hour, day, week, month. its capped to your metabolic rate and the bigger you get, the more protein breakdown you get. it gets to a point where chucking more and more at a situation is just ramping up sides for no increase in muscle gains as you need to reduce muscle protein breakdown, which is why people sort of get stuck around that FFMI of 26/27 without turning to something like insulin, which reduces protein breakdown.

so in your scenario of 1g of test.

i'd be confident that something like 400 test 400 deca (800 total) would at the very least match 1g of test but in most scenarios surpass it. if you only measured pure dry protein, you'd probably also find 400 test 300 primo would match the 1g test only.

what lowering the dose does, or using different compounds is let you modulate the sides you don't want. 1g of test would have my BP through the roof even on ARB's, i would also need to be on an AI. I could do 400 test 300 primo likely with no BP or e2 issues. when that combo of test and primo stopped with results and i didn't want to push higher, i could go to deca at 300 instead of primo. when deca stopped, tren may have the potential to help go a bit further as it tends to reduce muscle breakdown a bit. i'd also have the option of increasing the doses of compounds higher within those mg/kg rules of thumb i gave you.

its a balancing act. find your starting point, which for me, is the max test dose you can take without an AI and from there you can add in secondary or tertiary compounds.
Thanks again for such a detailed reply!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
482 Posts
so you've seen the androgenic:anabolic ratings, yeah?

so when you start mixing stuff, what a more anabolic compound allows you to do, is get generally the same about of anabolism as testosterone at a lesser dose, or a great level of anabolism with the same doses....up to a point.

there is only so much protein you can make in a single minute, hour, day, week, month. its capped to your metabolic rate and the bigger you get, the more protein breakdown you get. it gets to a point where chucking more and more at a situation is just ramping up sides for no increase in muscle gains as you need to reduce muscle protein breakdown, which is why people sort of get stuck around that FFMI of 26/27 without turning to something like insulin, which reduces protein breakdown.

so in your scenario of 1g of test.

i'd be confident that something like 400 test 400 deca (800 total) would at the very least match 1g of test but in most scenarios surpass it. if you only measured pure dry protein, you'd probably also find 400 test 300 primo would match the 1g test only.

what lowering the dose does, or using different compounds is let you modulate the sides you don't want. 1g of test would have my BP through the roof even on ARB's, i would also need to be on an AI. I could do 400 test 300 primo likely with no BP or e2 issues. when that combo of test and primo stopped with results and i didn't want to push higher, i could go to deca at 300 instead of primo. when deca stopped, tren may have the potential to help go a bit further as it tends to reduce muscle breakdown a bit. i'd also have the option of increasing the doses of compounds higher within those mg/kg rules of thumb i gave you.

its a balancing act. find your starting point, which for me, is the max test dose you can take without an AI and from there you can add in secondary or tertiary compounds.
That's interesting stuff and certainly something I've been pondering a lot myself. However how do you explain compounds such as anavar? Its well understood anavar even at 100mg per day won't add huge amounts of lbm (it will add some, sure) say compared to a similar dose of nandralone or even test - yet it's anabolic rating is much higher than either of those 2 compounds.

Just food for thought I guess.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
391 Posts
That's interesting stuff and certainly something I've been pondering a lot myself. However how do you explain compounds such as anavar? Its well understood anavar even at 100mg per day won't add huge amounts of lbm (it will add some, sure) say compared to a similar dose of nandralone or even test - yet it's anabolic rating is much higher than either of those 2 compounds.

Just food for thought I guess.
actually anavar is a bad example, but also a good one to underline @godsgifttoearth point, because there is somewhere a study floating around where low dose test + anavar resulted in a greater lbm increase than test alone.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
482 Posts
actually anavar is a bad example, but also a good one to underline @godsgifttoearth point, because there is somewhere a study floating around where low dose test + anvar resulted in a greater lvm increase than test alone.
Yeah, yeah. I know more lisps more speech impedements bangs on about that a lot. BUT the point I'm getting at is if someone run say 600 test + 700 nandro against 600 test & 700 var (100mg per day) which would you expect to make the most gains?

I'm not disagreeing with god's gift either - I don't know enough about this stuff; I'm just asking as it's something I would like to understand.
 

·
Looking Freaky
Joined
·
2,077 Posts
That's interesting stuff and certainly something I've been pondering a lot myself. However how do you explain compounds such as anavar? Its well understood anavar even at 100mg per day won't add huge amounts of lbm (it will add some, sure) say compared to a similar dose of nandralone or even test - yet it's anabolic rating is much higher than either of those 2 compounds.

Just food for thought I guess.
but i'd argue that anavar does actually add a lot of muscle protein. it just doesn't dump on water weight. people fail to differentiate between the 2 and just look at the scales whilst on cycle. anavar and primo are on the same level of pure protein expression for me. Tren and Deca do a load for protein expression too but they also add a boat load of "mass" to the muscle through adding water content to the muscle.

actually anavar is a bad example, but also a good one to underline @godsgifttoearth point, because there is somewhere a study floating around where low dose test + anavar resulted in a greater lbm increase than test alone.
this is what var does and why i keep saying it takes whatever you're on and just makes it better. Var reduces outward amino acid transport from the muscle cells. this seem unique to var and why it has such a high anabolic or myogenic rating. if you take something like test, it just ramps up muscle protein synthesis but doesn't reduce breakdown or losses from the cell. If you add in Var, you keep more aminos in the cell that are then picked up by the increased MPS.

IMO, VAR is the best oral as it does everything pretty well. if you need a more specific outcome, you can pick a more specific oral to those goals. Dbol for general mass. Tbol for more energy based systems. Superdrol for strength etc etc. If you just want a bit of size from a pump, bit of an energy system boost, bit of a strength outcome, VAR does it all.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top