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henryv said:
Aspartic Acid exists as two different enantiomers, L-Aspartic Acid and D-Aspartic Acid. I believe it would be impossible to synthesize enough D-Aspartic Acid in vivo via D-Aspartic Racemase from dietary L-Aspartic Acid to match the doses found in these types of product.

Im sorry but could you simplify that please too many big words :turned:

It doesn't appear to inhibit the HPTA at all, it stimulates it. The only things that tend to trigger the negative feedback loop are exogenous steroids, artificial gonadotropins (like hCG), and GnRH agonists like goseralin.

Im sure i read some where that raising test will eventually inhibit itself its to do with GnRH blood brain barrier which rings a bell. Basically the ball starts rolling when GnRH has a pulse causing a chain reaction (HPTA is before that right?). Infact GnRH can inhibit itself if im correct im pretty sure anything that can raise test can also inhibit it as well. if you can fool the other processess i.e pituary gland it might take longer for the body to realise the increase before the signal gets back to the GnRH though.

If you have a source for d-aspartic acid stimulating HPTA id be really interested. :thumbup1:

Estrogen tends to be a problem only when it's not matched by a concomitant increase in androgens. I haven't seen any reports of estrogen related side effects, and I know of quite a few people that have used it.

It makes sense otherwise there would be reported cases of gyno et cetra. But thats also another point how can i tell this 40% isnt just converting to estrogen and androgenic metabolites of testosterone such as Di-hydrotestosterone? it would explain the mood and labido increases a bit better.

It's becoming popular as a standalone test-booster and a lot of people are incorporating it into their PCTs. The study done that showed it raised test by ~40% was done on guys with normal test levels.

I read some where the average for males is between 7-30 nmol/L this can be entirely individual. 40% would make it 45ish on the high end. Im not going to try and compare the results of d-aspartic acid to a shot of test e but a cycle of test e can last for 6-12 weeks for good results. Wouldnt i need a longer "cycle" of d-aspartic acid to notice anything in terms of muscular size and fat loss currently if i go by a test e cycle it would cost me approx £60-120! for 6-12 weeks. Surely it being a natural hormonal product with a small increase in test id need to be on this for alot longer than a steroid.

Also as mentioned with the negative feedback loop should the cycles be shorter and how long between each cycle should i give i.e. 12 days on 12 days off, could i use more than 3g for faster results?? Apologise if this has already been answered else where

(i know a "cycle" is often reserved for steroids i just cant think of a better word for on/off)

If D-aspartic acid really can stimulate HPTA would there be a product that can slow or stop an increase in SHGB or wouldnt this be a problem?
Thanks again HenryV, you look as if you know your shizzle tis why im asking you but if BBwarehouse could chime in that would be fantastic. Also i heard some nasty rumours about it increasing prolactin so if you could tell me it isnt true that be very much appreciated :thumb:

copynpasted
 

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To recap, D-Aspartic Acid is the hottest new bodybuilding supplement ingredient, with some exciting science behind it to show it's ability to raise testosterone.

In this study 23 healthy men with normal testosterone levels were given D-Aspartic Acid for 12 days and their testosterone went up an average of 40%.

Aspartic acid exists in two forms with different functions. There is an L-Aspartic Acid, which is a non-essential amino acid freely available through diet. This can be converted in the body in small amounts to the other form, D-Aspartic Acid, by the enzyme D-Aspartic Racemase. It would be impossible to get enough D-Aspartic Acid through the diet to see the same effects seen with D-Aspartic Acid supplementation.

There is no evidence that the elevation in testosterone observed triggers the HPTA's negative feedback loop, and no reason to think that it would. Most methods of raising testosterone involve introducing supraphysiological levels of androgen or GnRH receptor ligands, or high levels of artificial LH. DAA works by stimulating NMDA receptors, which are outside of any of the normal HPTA feedback loops. It also has a direct stimulating effect on the testes (see the study posted earlier).

Some of the raised levels of testosterone will of course translate into raised levels of estrogen and DHT, since they are major metabolites. This isn't a problem when these things are all still balanced in their normal ratios. Elevated estrogen and low androgen levels can cause gyno, high androgen levels and low estrogen can cause lethargy, low DHT and high estrogen can cause a loss of libido. When they're all balanced they aren't a problem.

If you expect me to say it's more effective than steroids, I wont. Natural testosterone boosters like trib and OTC AIs have had a substantial market share for many years because there are plenty of people who don't want the attendant side effects, social stigma, and legal issues that surround steroid use. DAA represents the natural testosterone booster with more scientific backing than anything else on the market. People still buy trib by the bucketload despite the absence of any clear indication it does anything other than raise libido.

If you are looking for some indication that the increase in testosterone translates to an increase in performance, you can check out this log on bb.com where a guy is logging TestForce, the DAA product made by Patrick Arnold's company E-Pharm (the company I represent).

The study above was done for 12 days. I don't believe this should translate to a cycle length recommendation, not least because the product used in the study (an Italian DAA product called DADAVIT) is recommended by the manufacturers to be used for 90 days straight. Because DAA takes time to accumulate in target tissues, we recommend a "loading phase" (like you may do with creatine) of 6 grams daily for 1 - 3 weeks, followed by 3 grams a day.
 

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If I had a penny for every exciting new bodybuilding supplement that subsequently turned out to be snake oil I'd be a rich man. An extremely rudimentary study by a manufacturer with a vested interest does not equate to science, exciting or otherwise, in my book.

DAA may be a breakthrough product, but a lot more work needs to be done before any of the claims that are currently being made are scientifically justifiable.
 

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Ian_Montrose said:
If I had a penny for every exciting new bodybuilding supplement that subsequently turned out to be snake oil I'd be a rich man. An extremely rudimentary study by a manufacturer with a vested interest does not equate to science, exciting or otherwise, in my book.

DAA may be a breakthrough product, but a lot more work needs to be done before any of the claims that are currently being made are scientifically justifiable.
I agree that hype tends to exceed results when new compounds hit the market.

The study wasn't done by the manufacturers. It isn't rudimentary at all (did you read it?). It isn't the only study demonstrating that DAA and other NMDA receptor agonists increase testosterone, there's many on other mammals, much of the research on NMDA receptors surrounds their potential for treating schizophrenia. It's a fascinating subject, you may wish to try learning something about it before you rubbish it.
 

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henryv said:
I agree that hype tends to exceed results when new compounds hit the market.

The study wasn't done by the manufacturers. It isn't rudimentary at all (did you read it?). It isn't the only study demonstrating that DAA and other NMDA receptor agonists increase testosterone, there's many on other mammals, much of the research on NMDA receptors surrounds their potential for treating schizophrenia. It's a fascinating subject, you may wish to try learning something about it before you rubbish it.
The study was done on behalf of the manufacturers. It is rudimentary when you consider the limited duration, the small sample size and a number of other factors.

I can rubbish it all I like. The onus is on you, as someone trying to part consumers from their hard-earned cash, to justify your claims. Was this study that you make so much of approved by any regulatory authority such as the MHRA, FDA, EMEA etc? Has it been used as part of a submission for Marketing Approval for any DAA-based product? Have there been any clinical trials approved by any pharmaceutical regulatory body? Hvae there been any other trials on humans worth referencing that support your claims to this substance's miracle powers?
 

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Ian_Montrose said:
The study was done on behalf of the manufacturers. It is rudimentary when you consider the limited duration, the small sample size and a number of other factors.
That makes it limited in scope, certainly, I don't think that makes it rudimentary.
 

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Ian_Montrose said:
I can rubbish it all I like. The onus is on you, as someone trying to part consumers from their hard-earned cash, to justify your claims.
If more studies existed showing DAA raised testosterone in humans, I'd post them. There is some evidence that low DAA is linked to infertility in humans [link].

It's an emerging field of study. We've conducted pre- and post-blood tests on a few guys who have used our product, so we're confident in it's effects. There are also the studies showing the effects on:

rats,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17118457

mallards,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18601714

boars,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16996125

lizards,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16423814

green frogs,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15283696

sea squirts,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14527686

and monkeys

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10810298
 

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engineered said:
That is interesting to know.

Can you tell me if there are any differences between Testforce and other DAA brands?
Yes, as you'd expect from an innovator in the industry. It's far superior in terms of solubility. I'll quote PA on the subject:

Patrick Arnold said:
To get the most benefit from D-aspartic acid you must use a form that is highly soluble and

bioavailable. Unfortunately, straight D-aspartic acid has terrible water solubility (less than 1

gram will dissolve in 220 milliliters of water). This means that it basically sits in your digestive

tract as a gritty powder and absorbs very slowly and erractically. Furthermore, at higher

dosages this powder can cause digestive disturbances in susceptible individuals.

Fortunately I found out how to solve the d-aspartic acid solubility problem. What I did was make what is known as a calcium chelate of the amino acid. What that achieved was increasing the water solubility from less than 1 gram/200 milliliters to practically limitless. It was quite a remarkable achievement. What is also remarkable about this chelate is that it happens to be stable over a very wide pH range.

Once converted to this calcium chelate the amino acid became much more user friendly, as well as more quickly absorbable, and quite possibly more bioavailable. In addition to that, you get a healthy dose of highly bioavailable calcium with each dose.
Here's some feedback on the product you can check out. You can buy it here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks henry for the info. what can you say about the ndma "exitability" and possibly causing migraines. I got some of this from the forum you linked me too and some other forum and only skim read.
 

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Bish83 said:
Thanks henry for the info. what can you say about the ndma "exitability" and possibly causing migraines. I got some of this from the forum you linked me too and some other forum and only skim read.
I think injecting NMDA into your brain would be a bad idea. I haven't seen any evidence that administering DAA orally at recommended dosages is harmful.

If someone got a migraine while taking DAA it would be difficult to demonstrate causality. Stuff happens to people and they're very quick to attribute it to whatever they're taking, whether it's actually related or not is hard to tell. I haven't seen anyone complain about migraines from our product, most people just report a sky-high libido.
 

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Well i'm in the real world doing a real world test.

My result so far are that you can poke your d aspartic acid tests etc.

I've bought some ran it for about 1/2 the tub so far and noticed abslolutley sweet fvck all results.

It'sthe BBS stuff running it at 4 caps per day

Macros hav been bang on every day for last 5weeks so added this as an experiment as it was as close to a real world test as i could do.

No libido increase or any signs of test increase at all through usual signs.

I'm not trying to compare it to a bottle of test, but from all the hype i would expect some smalll signs.

I'll run it for it's remaining 10days and see if anything eventually happens.

****ed off tbh. Think ofthe steak icould have bought for that 20quid!!
 

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kawikid said:
Well i'm in the real world doing a real world test.

My result so far are that you can poke your d aspartic acid tests etc.

I've bought some ran it for about 1/2 the tub so far and noticed abslolutley sweet fvck all results.

Macros hav been bang on every day for last 5weeks so added this as an experiment as it was as close to a real world test as i could do.

No libido increase or any signs of test increase at all through usual signs.

I'm not trying to compare it to a bottle of test, but from all the hype i would expect some smalll signs.

I'll run it for it's remaining 10days and see if anything eventually happens.
Well that makes two of us then mate.

I went through A LOT of it also and 2 different brands just to be sure.

But i am sure its only the two of us that are non responders.......too cool or something no doubt:whistling:
 

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kawikid said:
Well i'm in the real world doing a real world test.

My result so far are that you can poke your d aspartic acid tests etc.

I've bought some ran it for about 1/2 the tub so far and noticed abslolutley sweet fvck all results.

It'sthe BBS stuff running it at 4 caps per day

Macros hav been bang on every day for last 5weeks so added this as an experiment as it was as close to a real world test as i could do.

No libido increase or any signs of test increase at all through usual signs.

I'm not trying to compare it to a bottle of test, but from all the hype i would expect some smalll signs.

I'll run it for it's remaining 10days and see if anything eventually happens.

****ed off tbh. Think ofthe steak icould have bought for that 20quid!!
It's not a caffeine-riddled pre-workout stim that you will "feel" working the first time you try it. Moderate elevations in testosterone such as you can expect from any effective testosterone booster will take time to reap results. It's not going to yield steroid-like gains, and you shouldn't expect them. I can't vouch for the quality of what you're taking (nor am I knocking it), but the vast majority of reviews for the product I represent have been very positive, glowing even. Pre and post blood tests would be the only way to work out if the product is actually working or not.
 

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Lois_Lane said:
Well that makes two of us then mate.

I went through A LOT of it also and 2 different brands just to be sure.

But i am sure its only the two of us that are non responders.......too cool or something no doubt:whistling:
There were a couple of non-responders in the DADAVIT study (it was effective at raising test in 87% of subjects); it is possible you are a non-responder. In the latest version of TestForce we've (well, PA has) added an extra ingredient, a secondary ligand to the NMDA receptor (a co-activator if you like) that could well mean no more non-responders.
 

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henryv said:
There were a couple of non-responders in the DADAVIT study (it was effective at raising test in 87% of subjects); it is possible you are a non-responder. In the latest version of TestForce we've (well, PA has) added an extra ingredient, a secondary ligand to the NMDA receptor (a co-activator if you like) that could well mean no more non-responders.
That is interesting and i shall keep an eye on your product.

I have nothing against DAA besides the fact that i saw nothing from it.

If it would now work for me that would be superb....... :beer:
 

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henryv said:
It's not a caffeine-riddled pre-workout stim that you will "feel" working the first time you try it. Moderate elevations in testosterone such as you can expect from any effective testosterone booster will take time to reap results. It's not going to yield steroid-like gains, and you shouldn't expect them. I can't vouch for the quality of what you're taking (nor am I knocking it), but the vast majority of reviews for the product I represent have been very positive, glowing even. Pre and post blood tests would be the only way to work out if the product is actually working or not.
Sir, go back and read my post again.

I KNOW it's not a pre workout stim. :rolleyes:

I also said in my post that i wasn't comparing it to test.

So let me get this right................pre and post blood tests are the ONLY way to tell if the product is working then. What??? No gains, signs of increased test, lean tissue growth, increased lifts, nope. :whistling:

I have tried a real test course a good while back (decided it's not for me) so i'm well aware of the signs of greatly increased testosterone. I dont expect to see anything like these signs frm an otc pill. But i would, given the hype, expect to see some slight sign of increased test.

The test boosters take time to "reap results". How long are we talking here, coz it's only a 20 day run stated on the tub. I'm half way through the stated 20 day run, so unless something's gonna happen in the next 9-10 days i call it as a dud.

Maybe as Con says, i'm just too cool for d aspartic acid. I'm sure there was a study done on axolot that stated it increased test by 43.264%, but the cool ones simply didn't react at all.

I mean, look how happy the wee guy is with all his non increased test. :)

00108.jpg


Maybe i'll have a 20-30 day break after this run and then try again with your product. See if there is any difference. Could just be that i've been mugged over by another suppliment company, surely not eh. :)
 

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kawikid said:
So let me get this right................pre and post blood tests are the ONLY way to tell if the product is working then.
After ten days? I'd say they are the only way to clearly demonstrate whether it's working or not, yes.

kawikid said:
What??? No gains, signs of increased test, lean tissue growth, increased lifts, nope. :whistling:

The test boosters take time to "reap results". How long are we talking here, coz it's only a 20 day run stated on the tub. I'm half way through the stated 20 day run, so unless something's gonna happen in the next 9-10 days i call it as a dud.
D-Aspartic Acid accumulates in target tissue (pituitary and testes) over time. This means that although it may take longer to appreciate an effect from it, that effect will be cumulative to a degree, and it also keeps working for a few days after you stop taking it. See this table for further statistical info from the study.
 
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