crazycacti

aye, to be fair i'm not sure if the gains outweigh the recovery issues for me... there was a lot of atrophy (if you know what i mean) and i was still banging in the HCG... i was doing 500iu 3xEW throughout and to finish with i did 1000iu ED for 5 days but this did not really make too much difference really - i just had to wait for my body to stabilize - it has done now though and i haven't lost too much strength either, so it can't be all bad

i have never felt so 'different' at the start of this PCT - libido at a low and really moody... fine now though

I'll try NPP next time in the same way i used tren...

__________________
Insulin Spikes? Glycemic Index? Just ask Timmy Smooth...

'Well I've just downed 4 Iceland sausage rolls and my arms are shaking like an epilectic on a bucking bronco.'

hackskii

Well, it is no secret that tren is hard on shutdown.
Some guys love that gear.
I will never use it myself, I suffer from high blood pressure on cycle so this one for me is a deffinet no no.

But I hear it has some progesteronic effects and maybe this is the sides of things.
Usually DHT opposes progesterone, so something like masteron during or even winstrol might not be a bad idea.
Just a thought.

__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

DB

What was the cycle dude?

__________________
DB
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
often imitated never duplicated
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


DB sleeps with a night light. Not because DB is
afraid of the dark, but the dark is afraid of DB.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

winger

Damn DB has a sexy ass............lol

Hey Crazy, did you get the tren cough?

You young guys bounce back quick.

I feel if you had that much shutdown then you must have made some serious gains. ;) There are no peaks without valleys.
I really feel if you can master a pct then you are one up on the game.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

crazycacti

DB... it was:

1-10 Test E - 600mg EW ( i frontloaded the first 2 weeks with 900mg)
1-4 Dbol - 50mg ED
1-6 Tren A - 100mg EOD
11-13 Tbol 70mg ED
11-13 Prop 100mg EOD

13 weeks was perhaps a little too long, but i didn't really want to come off and have PCT over xmas to be honest...

No tren cough, not even a tickle

Gains were good, i have a few new stretch marks near the bicep/front delt tie in to prove it too

I was thinking of running the same but withh NPP and var next time...

Hackskii - i think if i run it again masteron sounds like a good idea - i doubt i'll like winstrol with my joints though, but if i run NPP it sounds good

__________________
Insulin Spikes? Glycemic Index? Just ask Timmy Smooth...

'Well I've just downed 4 Iceland sausage rolls and my arms are shaking like an epilectic on a bucking bronco.'

hackskii

Um, I dont think it would be that wise of a decision to run deca and tren at the same time.
I mean it looks good on paper one being very androgenic and the other anabolic but both can have progesteronic side effects, and both are known to be very supressive on the HPTA.
I mean it might be fine but this is my thinking.
But DHT opposes estrogen and progesterone.

__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

crazycacti

i didn't mean to write it as the tren and NPP together Hackskii, sorry...

nah i'd run only one tor the other...

__________________
Insulin Spikes? Glycemic Index? Just ask Timmy Smooth...

'Well I've just downed 4 Iceland sausage rolls and my arms are shaking like an epilectic on a bucking bronco.'

hackskii

I was just throwing my thoughts out there and am waiting for someone to chime in.

__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

darkstar

That is one sweet read.

It sux but i know i wasted alot of time simply overtraing.

winger

I hear ya. I have been training 31 years and most of that was probably overtraining.
I got it down now.....lol

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

rayvonn

Many thanks for making a daunting subject understandable, I have not understood this before but your article makes it much easier to digest.

many thanks again
ash

__________________
Just getting back into training, enjoying it and appreciate all the good advice
cheers:rolleye11

bogman

Big et al,

After approx 9 weeks, I've just finished a Dual Factor cycle and made some good gains - have been very happy with it - thanks for the advice.

I stuck to Big's example programme - except substituted Deadlifts for the Squats (so Deadlift, Rows, Bench, OHP & Chins).

I'm just curious what you guys would advise now? I did one of those slow routines (ie one set only of 4 sec up, 2 sec hold, 4 sec up) before this, but didn't see as much gains.

I'm pretty tempted to do another Dual Factor cycle? Should I stick with the same excercises? I'm tempted to do squats instead of deadlifts, although I made good progress on the deadlift, so am keen to see if I could push that further?

One final question - I don't use anything more than whey & creatine - I assume I should try and use the creatine for 2 or 3 weeks as both the volume & intensity phases are getting to the end (and getting hard)?

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated?


Thanks

big

Hey dude, glad it worked well for you. I would suggest doing the same again and seeing what happens. When you find something that works for you, keep doing it until it stops working Once you've milked all the gains you can - that's when it's time to change things up.

As for creatine, by all means add some in throughout and see what happens. It is a fairly useful supplement, especially if you don't eat much red meat.

__________________


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

bogman

Big

Thanks for the quick reply - I will repeat the same routine again! Thanks for the advice.

Bogman

bogman

Big & All,

I've just completed my second cycle. It took 9 weeks - 5 weeks on volume and 4 weeks on intensity. I made gains over the first cycle:

Deadlift - 175kg to 190kg
Bench Press - 85.5kg to 90kg

I also made similiar gains on the OHP, Row & Chins.

(I know these don't break any records, but I'm natural and when I started out I was at fractions of these weights!). I am actually quite enjoying this routine - as it changes regularly there's no boredom factor. Also, I seem to be able to put a lot more focus and determination into 3 or 5 reps than I've done on 8 or 12 reps. (Having said that, as I've posted elsewhere, I'm not sure I'm getting the mass gains to accompany the strength gains).

So, I would appreciate your opinions/advice:
- do these gains seem reasonable for my second cycle? (I've been doing weights for 3 years - and before this I had really struggled to keep gaining on my lifts).
- From my post after the first cycle, I presume I should do keep on this dual factor cycle until the gains stop coming?
- My Bench Press was my lowest overall gain (~5% gain) - should I substitute something else - eg weighted dips?

Lastly, after a lot of soul searching and reading, I'm considering doing some AAS. I'm not keen on doing any serious doses, or injecting. So, I was considering 5 or 10mg a day DBol? Any thoughts on this? I recently read Saumuri69's 14 x 14 DBol thread with great interest (took me days to read it all!!). I was thinking that maybe if I tried to time it so that my 14 days "on" are the last two weeks of the volume and intensity phases? Any thoughts on this?

My goals are probably a bit different to some on here - I probably woudn't be classed as BB'er and am not out to make huge weight gains. If I could gain another ~10kg or so, and still keep my reasonably good level of cardio fitness, I'd be very happy. And I'm not looking to gain that 10kg rapidly - happy to give it a year or two if necessary.

Thanks for all the advice to date.