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T3 AND HGH

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Posted

If i was going to stay long term on HGH (1 year plus) do i need to take T3 and at what dose....Thanks

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Posted

From what i have read people use 25mcg - 50mcg max however i also read it is more beneficial to use t4 instead of t3 but cant find the link at the moment try searching for it its around somewere im sure.

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Not the most liked site for info but it was the first one of many that came up and agrees with info and experiences i have read on several sites/boards

By Mark Stent (B.Sc, Dipl Dat, SPN, Founder of www.bodybuilder.co.za and Muscle Fusion Nutrition Stores)

Growth hormone and thyroid hormones have been standard drugs in the ****nals of bodybuilders for years. Growth hormone has been used for its anabolic, muscle cell increasing, fat loss and anti aging properties. Thyroid hormones have been used for the fat loss, stimulatory and (to a lesser extent) anabolic effects. In this article I will look at the synergies between the two different types of thyroid hormone (T4 and T3) and Growth hormone (GH) and their applications in bodybuilding.

Before we get into the juicy stuff, we need to start with a little ‘geek-talk’ and some physiology.

The body produces two thyroid hormones, the first is thyroxine (T4) and the second is triiodothyronine (T3), which is the most widely used thyroid hormone in the world of muscle building. T4 is the inactive thyroid hormone and needs to be converted to T3 to exert thyroid-specific effects. This is done by the enzymes in the deiodinase group, of which there are 3 types – D1 and D2, which involved in the initiation of the process of conversion of T4 to T3 and D3, which is involved in the deactivation process.

The secretion of T4 is created in the thyroid gland and is stimulated by Thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), which in turn is stimulated by Thryrotropin Releasing hormone (TRH). So, when T3 levels rise, the body says, ‘hey, I have enough T3 floating around, so I need to cut back’, which it does by suppressing TSH (this is known as a ‘negative feedback loop’). Incidentally, thyroid hormones require insulin or IGF-1 to trigger their effects.

Growth hormone (GH) is produced in the pituitary gland and is regulated by factors such as hormones and enzymes. It is regulated by two hormones Somatostatin (SS) and Growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH). When there is too much GH circulating the body another negative feedback loop tells it to produce SS to decrease GH levels. When the body has too little GH, GHRH is produced.

GH has the ability to stimulate the conversion of T4 to T3, making thyroid hormones partially dependent on GH. Somatostatin (which is secreted when GH levels are too high) can also inhibit TSH secretion or reduce TRH secretion, which means it can limit the amount of T4 produced by the body. This means that although GH increases the conversion of T4 to T3, which means more T3, it may actually mean lower than normal T4 levels.

GH gene transcription is what gives GH its wonderful effects (such as muscle growth, fat loss etc) and T3 enhances these effects, making GH and T3 extremely synergistic, in fact, T3 is the limiting factor in exogenous GH usage. Here we now have a contradiction: T3 and GH are synergistic, but too much T3 decreases the anabolic effects of GH.

This is where Anthony Roberts (a well known steroid and performance enhancing drugs expert) hypothesised that it is the conversion process of T4 to T3 that is important. Let me explain. When there is too much T3 in the body and normal levels of T4, the thyroid sends a signal to produce less D1 and D2 (the activators) and more of D3 (the in-activator) and thus inhibits many of the synergistic effects of T3. When D3 levels are high, growth factors such as IGF-1 are stimulated, which means D3 is an important part of the equation with regards to the anabolic effects of GH.

Now for the part you have all been waiting for, the summary and conclusion…

When growth hormone is taken, along with T3, the GH will stop converting T4 to T3 after a certain point, which means it will shut of the good, anabolic effects of GH by killing the pathway that creates them! This, to me, seems like a bad thing! Now if we add T4 into a GH cycle, we would enhance this pathway, giving the GH more anabolic effects!

Remember that T4 alone is pretty ineffective for our purposes and requires something like GH to be made effective.

I have actually seen how effective using T4 in conjunction with GH is, first hand. An athlete I was working with was dieting for a show using GH and T3 (along with many other anabolic compounds), but was seeing no change in his fat to muscle ratio. Even with changes in his diet, such as lowering carbs, increasing cardio and even lowering calories, there were minimal changes, at best. T4 was introduced and within 1 week a change of 2.5% body fat and an increase of 1kg of muscle was measured! This is a pretty drastic change in any book.

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Posted

Altho the results may be a little over the top :)

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Posted

in my experinace the NEED for thyroid drugs whilst on GH is over stated i have been on GH for the last 3yrs at no point whilst on GH was my thyroid measured low, if you primary goal is to get down to low digit fat percentage then yes thyroid druigs will help you achieve that goal but i see no need to use these drugs just because your on GH

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Posted

thanks mate...but if i were to go on T3/T4 how long would it be ok to stay on low dose ?

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Posted

I also read that the need for t3 is needed whilst using tren,so what would you say to those using GH and tren pre contest paul?

I have never used t3 or t4 in the past wether bulking or dieting but according to the "experts" it is a nessesity with these compounds (??????)

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Posted

thanks mate...but if i were to go on T3/T4 how long would it be ok to stay on low dose ?

how long you stay on is down to your goals really have you had a blood test done? this is the best way to see if you need it in the first place.....

I also read that the need for t3 is needed whilst using tren,so what would you say to those using GH and tren pre contest paul?

I have never used t3 or t4 in the past wether bulking or dieting but according to the "experts" it is a nessesity with these compounds (??????)

well i am no expert but i will say i see no reason to use it unless your goals are to get into the low single digits as you would pre-contest so yes when dieting for a show i think it should be used......

i will say because T3/T4 is so easily available nowadys many are using it as an easy way to lose fat without understanding what implications it could cause.....

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Posted

Thats true for sure.I have a mate who was a big army guy,Got thyroid cancer.Had it removed and now he is so skinny and cant put weight on..People mess around with there thyroid to much,..

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Posted

i would rather go by blood tests whilst on gh and tren than speculate and have to use another substance for the body to become reliant upon..if free t4/3 levels are at rock bottom of normal range(9-26) or even fall into hypo thyroid catergory(never heard of this happening from gh)then maybe supplement.armour thyroid tabs are good as they contain a natural balance of t3 to t4 wich is closer to how your thyroid would naturally produce its hormones.plus i find the greek t4/3 to be very harsh compared to proper cytomel or thyroxine from uk.

hyperthyroidism is no joke either.thyroid is not something you wanna f around with unless you really have to.

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Posted

If you are going to use T3 you can use a dose as low as 12.5mcg per day. If you start using larger amounts of T3 you have to pyramid the dose, ie starting at a low dose then working your way up to the max dose, then tappering down again so as to avoid a rebound effect when coming off. If this is the case ( using a high dose ) it is recommended that you do not exceed 5 wks.

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Posted

This is a cut and paste, hopefully it helps

T3

HGH can have a slight inhibitory effect on your thyroid. For most people this is minimal and does not require any additional thyroid be taken, but if you wish to augment protein synthesis as well as give yourself a slight metabolic boost in thyroid without shutting down your own production, you can add 12.5mcg of T3 daily to your HGH, IGF-1, Insulin cycle. This will aid both in bulking and cutting.

If you add T3 to your cycle, you should also consider taking some thyroid support supplements such as t-100x, bladderwrack, coleus forskolin. You should check and make sure your intake of trace minerals (selenium, zinc, copper) is sufficient to aid in the conversion of T4 to T3.

If you are going to take more than 12.5 mcg of T3, a wise method is to cycle the dose both up and down to avoid a rebound effect when going off the T3 portion of your cycle. The other consideration is that T3 is very indiscriminant in it stoking of the metabolic fire. It will happily burn both fat and lean tissue, so I would only recommend its use at much above 25mcgs per day (and definitely if used at 50mcgs or above at which point IGFBP's will rise significantly) if you are on a reasonably healthy anabolic cycle to protect your lean tissue. For strictly our use with an HGH cycle and use in assisting with protein sythesis, 12.5mcg will be sufficient and will not be problematic.

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Posted

in my experinace the NEED for thyroid drugs whilst on GH is over stated i have been on GH for the last 3yrs at no point whilst on GH was my thyroid measured low, if you primary goal is to get down to low digit fat percentage then yes thyroid druigs will help you achieve that goal but i see no need to use these drugs just because your on GH

correct and if you do decide to take t3 or t4 dont forget to taper up and down on the dosage as any shock to the tyroid can be costly, as far as iam awere there is no differance between t3 and t4 as t4 converts to t3 anyway you just need to take more t4 to get the same affect as t3 as its weaker, and only take it for 6 weeks max if you suppress the tyroid to long it may strugle to bounce back and then you could again run into problems.

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Posted

correct and if you do decide to take t3 or t4 dont forget to taper up and down on the dosage as any shock to the tyroid can be costly, as far as iam awere there is no differance between t3 and t4 as t4 converts to t3 anyway you just need to take more t4 to get the same affect as t3 as its weaker, and only take it for 6 weeks max if you suppress the tyroid to long it may strugle to bounce back and then you could again run into problems.

sorry mate this is not the case. it has been proven both by memers on here personally and medical studies posted that prolonged period of t3 use and im talking 6 months up will not cause damage to your thyroid it will recover most likely within 6 weeks.

their is also no need to taper the dose i believe. i myself have used t3 for 4 months maybe longer and my thryoid is fine.

I believe pscarb used it for 10 months or so and his thyroid recoverd in 6 weeks.

this dont use it for longer than 6 - 8 weeks is a myth

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Posted

guys their is no need to taper the dose of thyroid drugs this does not prevent a rebound as even if you was just taking 12.5mcg your thyroid gland would be suppressed it only starts to recover when you have no synthetic drug in your system your body is not stupid.....

taper up to find the optimum dose but tapering down is a waste and this was told to me by my Doc and Endocrinologist so not something i heard on the net......

to help your thyroid recover take Kelp(iodine) when you come off

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Posted

sorry mate this is not the case. it has been proven both by memers on here personally and medical studies posted that prolonged period of t3 use and im talking 6 months up will not cause damage to your thyroid it will recover most likely within 6 weeks.

their is also no need to taper the dose i believe. i myself have used t3 for 4 months maybe longer and my thryoid is fine.

I believe pscarb used it for 10 months or so and his thyroid recoverd in 6 weeks.

this dont use it for longer than 6 - 8 weeks is a myth

ok m8 ill take your word for it lol ive spend a along time in the states the last few years and they seem to do things differant over there, i guess i need to get back into the british way off doing things he he

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Posted

i would advise not to use any throid med unless you are dieting pre-contest or want to lose a drastic loss of weight 4 a serious reason

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in my experinace the NEED for thyroid drugs whilst on GH is over stated i have been on GH for the last 3yrs at no point whilst on GH was my thyroid measured low, if you primary goal is to get down to low digit fat percentage then yes thyroid druigs will help you achieve that goal but i see no need to use these drugs just because your on GH

ok but is it true that using t3 or t4 while on HGH will help bulking??? and wat do u think is better for bulking, t3 or t4 or is it the same thng....??

thanx mate

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Posted

T3 or T4 are to increase the metabolism so not something i would use to bulk.....

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Posted

T3 or T4 are to increase the metabolism so not something i would use to bulk.....

'''''HGH can have a slight inhibitory effect on your thyroid. For most people this is minimal and does not require any additional thyroid be taken, but if you wish to augment protein synthesis as well as give yourself a slight boost in thyroid without shutting down your own production, you can add 12.5mcg of T3 daily to your HGH, IGF-1, Insulin cycle. This will aid both in bulking and cutting.''''''

is that true Pscarb?

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Posted

some believe it is, i still stand by the fact that if you are not wanting to cut then there is no need to mess with your thyroid

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im starting hgh this week and adding it to my current course of masteron and test, a guy recomended taking t3 i was not so sure about this and didnt understand the reason as im not cutting. you have kind of just confirmed that hes a mong really im glad i come on here for some proper advice before adding random products without research.

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Posted

[MENTION=1271]Pscarb[/MENTION]

I wonder if a higher dosage of T3 (50mcg and higher, tapering up) would be more beneficial during the HGH course for fat loss purposes, or will a small dose of 12.5-25mcg is ultimate? Any advice would be appreciated. Many thanks.

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Posted

[MENTION=1271]Pscarb[/MENTION]

I wonder if a higher dosage of T3 (50mcg and higher, tapering up) would be more beneficial during the HGH course for fat loss purposes, or will a small dose of 12.5-25mcg is ultimate? Any advice would be appreciated. Many thanks.

[MENTION=56184]DiggyV[/MENTION] - What do you think? You seem to have bulks of experience in working on the weight loss problem as well.

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Posted

[MENTION=1271]Pscarb[/MENTION]

I wonder if a higher dosage of T3 (50mcg and higher, tapering up) would be more beneficial during the HGH course for fat loss purposes, or will a small dose of 12.5-25mcg is ultimate? Any advice would be appreciated. Many thanks.

well yes more T3 will increase fat burning than a lower dose....

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