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Alanpatrick1

First cycle

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I have been looking into my first cycle and pct etc and came across this.

Test e 250mg Monday & Thursday    Weeks 1-12
HCG    250iu Monday & Thursday    Weeks 1-14
Arimidex    .25mg 1st 2 weeks, .5mg after    Weeks 1-14
Proper PCT

Clomid    50mg every day    Weeks 14-18
Nolvadex    20mg every day

Looking for any feedback pls
Thx

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On 7/15/2017 at 6:04 AM, Alanpatrick1 said:

I have been looking into my first cycle and pct etc and came across this.

Test e 250mg Monday & Thursday    Weeks 1-12 
HCG    250iu Monday & Thursday    Weeks 1-14 
Arimidex    .25mg 1st 2 weeks, .5mg after    Weeks 1-14
Proper PCT

Clomid    50mg every day    Weeks 14-18
Nolvadex    20mg every day

Looking for any feedback pls
Thx

Theoretically 2x week is better pinning test E but vast majority see little to no difference, pin twice if it doesn't bother you. I pin twice as its a quick task

HCG, fine, right at the low end though but its not essential. recommended is 750iu up, see how you go.  

AI: start at 0.5mg E3D from the start and adjust, drop that 2 week lower start, its pointless

PCT: many recommend a lot longer (6 - 7 weeks) and Clomid at 100/100/50/50. I don't think there is any need personally. Maybe up the clomid

I have often dropped PCT after week 3 or 4 and so no difference whatsoever, some never PCT

 

Minor points

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, ba baracuss said:

A simple oral cycle would be worth considering IMO. Tbol or dbol + AI/SERM.

Thats a terrible idea for a first cycle... no test base?

asking for problems with unknown compounds and additionally can only realistically have 6 week cycle 

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21 hours ago, ba baracuss said:

A simple oral cycle would be worth considering IMO. Tbol or dbol + AI/SERM.

Considering it pointless yes 

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23 hours ago, Lifesizepenguin said:

Thats a terrible idea for a first cycle... no test base?

asking for problems with unknown compounds and additionally can only realistically have 6 week cycle 

What?

Why does every cycle have to have a 'test base'? Is that a new bro science rule?

Also, 'unknown compounds'? What unknown compounds? He's proposing test, HCG and an AI. I'm proposing 1 compound.

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21 hours ago, Tricky said:

Considering it pointless yes 

Why pointless? It works despite apparently not being currently fashionable.

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15 minutes ago, ba baracuss said:

What?

Why does every cycle have to have a 'test base'? Is that a new bro science rule?

Also, 'unknown compounds'? What unknown compounds? He's proposing test, HCG and an AI. I'm proposing 1 compound.

 

A Test base is recommended so you dont have the pretty annoying symptoms of low T such as ED and Mood swings, as well as the effect on your lipids from crashed T and E2. 

I dont know why you WOULDNT want to run a test base....

OK, so he has no idea how he will react to test, without needing to throw in other synthetic AAS. Its usually a good idea to see how you do with testosterone, something endogenous to the human body and far less detrimental to your health to run, before throwing in other "unknown" compounds.

 

HCG isnt necessary but can be useful but it only stimulates your natural test production, so we know what thats gonna do. that once again is just optional though. I dont use HCG, but im on TRT so theres that.

you have suggested deffo 2, possibly 3 compounds "Tbol or dbol + AI/SERM." was what you wrote.

 

Its not that its not "fashionable" to run an oral only, but he has asked for advice, why would I want to give him advice I dont agree with? e.g. shutting yourself down for like 10-12 weeks with no test and for gains that are much harder to retain (not to mention less dramatic)  than with  a 12 week injectable cycle.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lifesizepenguin said:

 

A Test base is recommended so you dont have the pretty annoying symptoms of low T such as ED and Mood swings, as well as the effect on your lipids from crashed T and E2. 

I dont know why you WOULDNT want to run a test base....

OK, so he has no idea how he will react to test, without needing to throw in other synthetic AAS. Its usually a good idea to see how you do with testosterone, something endogenous to the human body and far less detrimental to your health to run, before throwing in other "unknown" compounds.

 

HCG isnt necessary but can be useful but it only stimulates your natural test production, so we know what thats gonna do. that once again is just optional though. I dont use HCG, but im on TRT so theres that.

you have suggested deffo 2, possibly 3 compounds "Tbol or dbol + AI/SERM." was what you wrote.

 

Its not that its not "fashionable" to run an oral only, but he has asked for advice, why would I want to give him advice I dont agree with? e.g. shutting yourself down for like 10-12 weeks with no test and for gains that are much harder to retain (not to mention less dramatic)  than with  a 12 week injectable cycle.

 

 

I haven't suggested 2 or possibly 3 compounds, I've suggested 1 or possibly 2 if he can't source the first.

It's very simple and is a known compound. Why do you keep mentioning 'unknown compounds'?

It's a short cycle. It's easy to administer. It's easy to stop. It has no gyno risk (I'm talking tbol btw)

It's not highly suppressive. It requires no pinning and has no risk of PIP/infections/embolism for a first time user.

You can give him whatever advice you want. That's considerably different to writing off a simple oral cycle to jam 'test base' into it because that's the currently fashionable thing to say.

He's not going to be shut down for 10-12 weeks from a tbol cycle unless he's 50+ or something. 

Let the guy make his own mind up without rubbishing ideas you don't like yourself.

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1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

I haven't suggested 2 or possibly 3 compounds, I've suggested 1 or possibly 2 if he can't source the first.

So you are saying theres no chance he may need a serm AND an AI on Dbol or a Serm on Tbol for any reason?

Id like to note i need a serm when my T is low as i get T:E imbalance and i get gyno, it may not be estrogenic, but you can still get gyno.

1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

It's very simple and is a known compound. Why do you keep mentioning 'unknown compounds'?

Its not Endogenous to your body, therefore, its an "Unknown Compound" in your body, just because you know what it is, your body doesnt, whereas test, is handled daily, its definately a smarter option IMO.

1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

It's not highly suppressive. It requires no pinning and has no risk of PIP/infections/embolism for a first time user.

You can give him whatever advice you want. That's considerably different to writing off a simple oral cycle to jam 'test base' into it because that's the currently fashionable thing to say.

He's not going to be shut down for 10-12 weeks from a tbol cycle unless he's 50+ or something. 

 

Yes, it is highly supressive :lol: yes, you will 100% guaranteed be shut down from Tbol. No Doubt about it.

If he is running a 10 week cycle or even 8 weeks he will be shut down for 10- 12 weeks.

 

This is nothing to do with fashionable. its intelligent to use a test base AT LEAST for the reasons ive already stated, you cannot refute these facts.

Orals are considerably worse for your health, in the short and long term with the only "advantage" being you can take a pill over injecting, which is safe and sterile provided you use common sense and are careful.

 

Im not saying oral only cycles dont work, because they do. but it wont work like a test + oral or a Test cycle run for a longer period of time.

And im also very happy to say its not good advise to tell someone an oral only cycle is a good first cycle. because it isnt.

Yes people do them, doesnt make it an effective first cycle vs Test Only for 12 weeks for example.

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On 18/07/2017 at 3:41 PM, Lifesizepenguin said:

So you are saying theres no chance he may need a serm AND an AI on Dbol or a Serm on Tbol for any reason?

Id like to note i need a serm when my T is low as i get T:E imbalance and i get gyno, it may not be estrogenic, but you can still get gyno.

Its not Endogenous to your body, therefore, its an "Unknown Compound" in your body, just because you know what it is, your body doesnt, whereas test, is handled daily, its definately a smarter option IMO.

Yes, it is highly supressive :lol: yes, you will 100% guaranteed be shut down from Tbol. No Doubt about it.

If he is running a 10 week cycle or even 8 weeks he will be shut down for 10- 12 weeks.

 

This is nothing to do with fashionable. its intelligent to use a test base AT LEAST for the reasons ive already stated, you cannot refute these facts.

Orals are considerably worse for your health, in the short and long term with the only "advantage" being you can take a pill over injecting, which is safe and sterile provided you use common sense and are careful.

 

Im not saying oral only cycles dont work, because they do. but it wont work like a test + oral or a Test cycle run for a longer period of time.

And im also very happy to say its not good advise to tell someone an oral only cycle is a good first cycle. because it isnt.

Yes people do them, doesnt make it an effective first cycle vs Test Only for 12 weeks for example.

If you're on TRT then I'm not surprised your t/e ratios are all over the place. Quite how that relates to someone who isn't, who is running tbol, I have no idea.

Have you got anything to back up your claims that tbol is highly suppressive? In comparison to other compounds I would argue it is not, since it does not aromatise and neither is it highly androgenic, both of which are the keys to suppression.

Shut down is a binary term that suggests zero test production. I don't agree that will be the case or even close.

I don't agree with your 'unknown compound' argument either. Clearly, your body recognises it as a testosterone derivative, otherwise you wouldn't get 'shut down' as you put it or suppressed as I would put it. You're completely contradicting yourself with this argument. If it's suppressive, your body recognises it.

I'm happy to refute all of your 'facts' about your test base assertions as they have no factual basis for everybody. They're just your opinions which are obviously based on your own experiences from your TRT, which is fine, bit not applicable to other people.

Quite clearly a test cycle run for a longer period of time should give better results. I'm not suggesting anybody runs an oral for 10-12 weeks. I'd say 8 weeks max.

The OP might prefer the simplicity of an oral only cycle, or he might prefer to go for broke and run a test cycle. I've offered an alternative option that's been proven to be be simple and effective so he can choose for himself. Just because it wouldn't suit you doesn't mean it wouldn't suit someone else.

 

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11 hours ago, ba baracuss said:

If you're on TRT then I'm not surprised your t/e ratios are all over the place. Quite how that relates to someone who isn't, who is running tbol, I have no idea.

Have you got anything to back up your claims that tbol is highly suppressive? In comparison to other compounds I would argue it is not, since it does not aromatise and neither is it highly androgenic, both of which are the keys to suppression.

Actually now im on TRT my T:E ratios ARENT all over the place anymore. This is because im not on TRT and have stable blood levels.... this has nothing to do with the point im making which is you CAN get gyno from having an out of whack T:E ratio, and running Tbol OR Dbol (lets not forget you recommended either) will lower your natural test to  very low levels when run in reasonable bodybuilding dosages.

This isnt about "comparison" to other compounds . I geniunely dont need to prove that Tbol or Dbol is supressive. ALL AAS ARE SUPRESSIVE, f**k even SARMS are supressive. Now im not saying Tbol is the harshest (although Dbol certainly is up there for supression) but I am saying it is supressive, as all AAS are. 

 

11 hours ago, ba baracuss said:

I don't agree with your 'unknown compound' argument either. Clearly, your body recognises it as a testosterone derivative, otherwise you wouldn't get 'shut down' as you put it or suppressed as I would put it. You're completely contradicting yourself with this argument. If it's suppressive, your body recognises it.

If your body does not produce 4-Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone endogenously, its an unknown compound... your argument doesnt even make sense to me.

Just because your body can react to a compound, doesnt mean its endogenous to your body.

This is shown by test having a minimal impact on your body compared to Tbol, Dbol or any other bol, drol or 19-nor AAS. 

 

11 hours ago, ba baracuss said:

I'm happy to refute all of your 'facts' about your test base assertions as they have no factual basis for everybody. They're just your opinions which are obviously based on your own experiences from your TRT, which is fine, bit not applicable to other people.

so you are telling me, that you can prove that low test DOESNT give you ED, mood swings, and low e2 can effects lipids negatively?

You can also refute that having high E2 and Low T can cause gyno? Im some sort of special snowflake that this can ONLY happen to?

This isnt just based on personal experience.

 

11 hours ago, ba baracuss said:

Quite clearly a test cycle run for a longer period of time should give better results. I'm not suggesting anybody runs an oral for 10-12 weeks. I'd say 8 weeks max.

The OP might prefer the simplicity of an oral only cycle, or he might prefer to go for broke and run a test cycle. I've offered an alternative option that's been proven to be be simple and effective so he can choose for himself. Just because it wouldn't suit you doesn't mean it wouldn't suit someone else.

Im not saying oral only cycles dont give results. I am saying that its not good practice to give out oral only  cycles as "good advice" for a first cycle. This is because its far less healthy for your body and results arent as good. Pinning really isnt that much extra work for better gains and better bloodwork.

The OP has already suggested a test cycle, asked if its ok so. Common sense would dictate you build on that, hes clearly already willing to pin, so why would you then suggest an oral only cycle. Tbol, or Dbol for that matter.

You advise people on best practice, not what is easiest, is what im saying. Im not trying to have a go at you, im trying to get my point across, do you understand where im coming from here?

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On 20/07/2017 at 9:58 AM, Lifesizepenguin said:

Actually now im on TRT my T:E ratios ARENT all over the place anymore. This is because im not on TRT and have stable blood levels.... this has nothing to do with the point im making which is you CAN get gyno from having an out of whack T:E ratio, and running Tbol OR Dbol (lets not forget you recommended either) will lower your natural test to  very low levels when run in reasonable bodybuilding dosages.

This isnt about "comparison" to other compounds . I geniunely dont need to prove that Tbol or Dbol is supressive. ALL AAS ARE SUPRESSIVE, f**k even SARMS are supressive. Now im not saying Tbol is the harshest (although Dbol certainly is up there for supression) but I am saying it is supressive, as all AAS are. 

 

If your body does not produce 4-Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone endogenously, its an unknown compound... your argument doesnt even make sense to me.

Just because your body can react to a compound, doesnt mean its endogenous to your body.

This is shown by test having a minimal impact on your body compared to Tbol, Dbol or any other bol, drol or 19-nor AAS. 

 

so you are telling me, that you can prove that low test DOESNT give you ED, mood swings, and low e2 can effects lipids negatively?

You can also refute that having high E2 and Low T can cause gyno? Im some sort of special snowflake that this can ONLY happen to?

This isnt just based on personal experience.

 

Im not saying oral only cycles dont give results. I am saying that its not good practice to give out oral only  cycles as "good advice" for a first cycle. This is because its far less healthy for your body and results arent as good. Pinning really isnt that much extra work for better gains and better bloodwork.

The OP has already suggested a test cycle, asked if its ok so. Common sense would dictate you build on that, hes clearly already willing to pin, so why would you then suggest an oral only cycle. Tbol, or Dbol for that matter.

You advise people on best practice, not what is easiest, is what im saying. Im not trying to have a go at you, im trying to get my point across, do you understand where im coming from here?

You don't half talk some rubbish.

Look at your first sentence - you state that you are and are not on TRT. Utter gibberish.

You said tbol is highly suppressive. You said you will be 100% shut down from tbol. This is total and utter nonsense. Shut down means zero endogenous testosterone production. Any normal male will not suffer that from tbol. It's a relatively mild steroid, certainly in comparison to testosterone which you seem to think has minimal effects in comparison. If that was the case, why does the standard cycle like the OP has listed need HCG and adex? Why not use test alone if it has 'a minimal effect on your body in comparison to tbol'?

It's because, in fact, testosterone will both suppress your HPTA and also cause rises in estrogen, hence the need for the ancillaries. So, in fact, testosterone, like any steroid, will mess up your endocrine system.

Well done for referencing the chemical name for tbol. It doesn't change the fact that you are talking nonsense, again. On the one hand you are banging on about tbol being highly suppressive and causing shutdown (lies) then you are saying your body doesn't recognise it. If it doesn't recognise it, why would it be suppressive? Do you understand what suppression is? It's when your body detects testosterone or its derivatives and reduces endogenous production. If it's not recognised, you wouldn't suffer any suppression at all.

The OP said he came across a test cycle list, and asked for feedback. I suggested a simpler oral cycle as an alternative he could consider. He might not be aware that there are alternatives. You waded in with a condescending tone spouting nonsense about test bases. Where you're coming from is an uninformed position while trying to be condescending, which doesn't work at all.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

You don't half talk some rubbish.

Look at your first sentence - you state that you are and are not on TRT. Utter gibberish.

It was clearly a mistype that wasnt it? I meant:

"Actually now im on TRT my T:E ratios ARENT all over the place anymore. This is because im now on TRT and have stable blood levels.... "

no need to get pissy.
 

1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

It's a relatively mild steroid, certainly in comparison to testosterone which you seem to think has minimal effects in comparison. If that was the case, why does the standard cycle like the OP has listed need HCG and adex? Why not use test alone if it has 'a minimal effect on your body in comparison to tbol'

So are you telling me a Tbol cycle run relative (in dosage) to a test only cycle will have an equal affect on your cholesterol and liver?

and what about Dbol? you suggested that too.

the Standard cycle doesnt "need HCG" its a optional addition though to keep your testes working, easing recorvery I mean f**k it, you could run HCG on tbol too if you wanted.... as a disclaimer I dont run HCG. ever.  

You could  run Test and Adex/Asin or even just test if the dose is low (although AI should be considered), you dont NEED to do anything.

 

1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

It's because, in fact, testosterone will both suppress your HPTA and also cause rises in estrogen, hence the need for the ancillaries. So, in fact, testosterone, like any steroid, will mess up your endocrine system.

But somehow Tbol magically wont? this is what you are saying? its mild, you in fact implied its not supressive.

It still interacts with androgen receptors and reduce gonadatopin reduction, and if you are 3-4x having higher doses than you would be producing test endogenously its going to be very supressive.

I know test will shut you down too, but at least youll not experience low T symptoms; from having low T.  This is the point im making.

 

1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

Well done for referencing the chemical name for tbol. It doesn't change the fact that you are talking nonsense, again. On the one hand you are banging on about tbol being highly suppressive and causing shutdown (lies) then you are saying your body doesn't recognise it. If it doesn't recognise it, why would it be suppressive? Do you understand what suppression is? It's when your body detects testosterone or its derivatives and reduces endogenous production. If it's not recognised, you wouldn't suffer any suppression at all.

You clearly dont understand what im trying to tell you. 

in simple terms: testosterone is produced by your body and therefore tends to be a bit friendlier. your body DOES NOT know what tbol is, it is not produced in your body. so yes, your body CAN process it because its a test derivative, but it is still unfamilier to your body. it wont be handled as well or smoothly as test.

Why does test have less of a negative impact on your health than other AAS? because your body processes it on a daily basis, its built to process it, unlike other altered forms of test which can; generally speaking have a far worse impact  on your health.

 

1 hour ago, ba baracuss said:

The OP said he came across a test cycle list, and asked for feedback. I suggested a simpler oral cycle as an alternative he could consider. He might not be aware that there are alternatives. You waded in with a condescending tone spouting nonsense about test bases. Where you're coming from is an uninformed position while trying to be condescending, which doesn't work at all.

I wasnt at any point trying to be condescening, Im not sure where you got that. I simply said its a terrible idea and stated why. you have then progressively become more defensive.

 

In the end of the day, there is no arguing that an oral cycle is better than a test only, or test + oral cycle, it has less impact on your health and the gains will be better, even if only because you can run the cycle for longer. The fact that even you wouldnt run an oral cycle for longer than 8 weeks proves that it has a greater health impact.

Once again, im not saying  oral only cycles dont work. im saying they are less effective and much less friendly to your body - so why if someone who is willing to do a test only cycle, now being recommended a less effective and more risky (in terms of health) cycle?

Im not saying dont do it yourself, im just saying its not good advice to give to someone first time.

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How about @ba baracuss instead of us bickering and going off topic, just ask yourself this:
 

Are you more likely to run into low T symptoms on 500mg test e for twelve weeks or 60mg Tbol for 6 weeks?
Will you get better gains from 500mg test e per week for twelve weeks, or 60mg Tbol for 6 weeks?
Will your Cholesterol and Liver Values be impacted more from 500mg test e per week for twelve weeks, or 60mg Tbol for 6 weeks?

 

Those are the reasons I wouldnt ADVISE an oral only cycle to someone who is open to a test only cycle for their first time, and also why its my opinion that its a terrible idea.

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12 hours ago, Lifesizepenguin said:

It was clearly a mistype that wasnt it? I meant:

"Actually now im on TRT my T:E ratios ARENT all over the place anymore. This is because im now on TRT and have stable blood levels.... "

no need to get pissy.
 

So are you telling me a Tbol cycle run relative (in dosage) to a test only cycle will have an equal affect on your cholesterol and liver?

and what about Dbol? you suggested that too.

the Standard cycle doesnt "need HCG" its a optional addition though to keep your testes working, easing recorvery I mean f**k it, you could run HCG on tbol too if you wanted.... as a disclaimer I dont run HCG. ever.  

You could  run Test and Adex/Asin or even just test if the dose is low (although AI should be considered), you dont NEED to do anything.

 

But somehow Tbol magically wont? this is what you are saying? its mild, you in fact implied its not supressive.

It still interacts with androgen receptors and reduce gonadatopin reduction, and if you are 3-4x having higher doses than you would be producing test endogenously its going to be very supressive.

I know test will shut you down too, but at least youll not experience low T symptoms; from having low T.  This is the point im making.

 

You clearly dont understand what im trying to tell you. 

in simple terms: testosterone is produced by your body and therefore tends to be a bit friendlier. your body DOES NOT know what tbol is, it is not produced in your body. so yes, your body CAN process it because its a test derivative, but it is still unfamilier to your body. it wont be handled as well or smoothly as test.

Why does test have less of a negative impact on your health than other AAS? because your body processes it on a daily basis, its built to process it, unlike other altered forms of test which can; generally speaking have a far worse impact  on your health.

 

I wasnt at any point trying to be condescening, Im not sure where you got that. I simply said its a terrible idea and stated why. you have then progressively become more defensive.

 

In the end of the day, there is no arguing that an oral cycle is better than a test only, or test + oral cycle, it has less impact on your health and the gains will be better, even if only because you can run the cycle for longer. The fact that even you wouldnt run an oral cycle for longer than 8 weeks proves that it has a greater health impact.

Once again, im not saying  oral only cycles dont work. im saying they are less effective and much less friendly to your body - so why if someone who is willing to do a test only cycle, now being recommended a less effective and more risky (in terms of health) cycle?

Im not saying dont do it yourself, im just saying its not good advice to give to someone first time.

Pretty much this, if op is willing.

It's the standard advise going back decades and what elchapo has suggested many times

 

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On 21/07/2017 at 2:47 PM, Lifesizepenguin said:

So are you telling me a Tbol cycle run relative (in dosage) to a test only cycle will have an equal affect on your cholesterol and liver?

and what about Dbol? you suggested that too.

the Standard cycle doesnt "need HCG" its a optional addition though to keep your testes working, easing recorvery I mean f**k it, you could run HCG on tbol too if you wanted.... as a disclaimer I dont run HCG. ever.  

You could  run Test and Adex/Asin or even just test if the dose is low (although AI should be considered), you dont NEED to do anything.

No I'm not. Are you telling me that 500mg of test a week won't be highly suppressive and have the potential to cause high blood pressure, acne, gyno, water retention, HPTA suppression, hair loss? Tbol is less suppressive, does not cause hair loss and does not need ancillaries in the same way that test does. It's also a shorter cycle and so its effects on your body are there for a shorter period.

Apart from running HCG alongside tbol defeating the object of avoiding needles, HCG can also cause gyno so I wouldn't say that is a good idea either.

You keep going on about testosterone being kind to the body. Not at the doses used for bodybuilding it's not.  The ancillaries he quoted are used to reduce these side effects. Without them he WILL have shrunken balls and the potential for most of the side effects I quoted, as well as the potential for hair loss and high blood pressure which those meds don't control.

You seem to be under the illusion that exogenous testosterone is harmless stuff because you use it at a low dose for TRT. That's not what the OP is proposing. Not even close. 

On 21/07/2017 at 2:47 PM, Lifesizepenguin said:

But somehow Tbol magically wont? this is what you are saying? its mild, you in fact implied its not supressive.

It still interacts with androgen receptors and reduce gonadatopin reduction, and if you are 3-4x having higher doses than you would be producing test endogenously its going to be very supressive.

I know test will shut you down too, but at least youll not experience low T symptoms; from having low T.  This is the point im making.

You clearly dont understand what im trying to tell you. 

in simple terms: testosterone is produced by your body and therefore tends to be a bit friendlier. your body DOES NOT know what tbol is, it is not produced in your body. so yes, your body CAN process it because its a test derivative, but it is still unfamilier to your body. it wont be handled as well or smoothly as test.

Why does test have less of a negative impact on your health than other AAS? because your body processes it on a daily basis, its built to process it, unlike other altered forms of test which can; generally speaking have a far worse impact  on your health.

You need to use more accurate language to make any sense. Suppression is a progressive scale as opposed to shutdown which you also use which means ZERO testosterone production. I have never said tbol is not suppressive. I've said it's mild in comparison to other steroids.

I understand what you're trying to say, and it's nonsensical. Exogenous testosterone is not friendly. It shuts down your HPTA and causes all of the side effects I mentioned earlier. Tbol is a testosterone derivative and therefore has anabolic effects. It doesn't give you gyno or hair loss, and it's less suppressive than many other alternatives. Of course it causes suppression, but less so than a long testosterone cycle.

On 21/07/2017 at 2:47 PM, Lifesizepenguin said:

I wasnt at any point trying to be condescening, Im not sure where you got that. I simply said its a terrible idea and stated why. you have then progressively become more defensive.

In the end of the day, there is no arguing that an oral cycle is better than a test only, or test + oral cycle, it has less impact on your health and the gains will be better, even if only because you can run the cycle for longer. The fact that even you wouldnt run an oral cycle for longer than 8 weeks proves that it has a greater health impact.

Once again, im not saying  oral only cycles dont work. im saying they are less effective and much less friendly to your body - so why if someone who is willing to do a test only cycle, now being recommended a less effective and more risky (in terms of health) cycle?

Im not saying dont do it yourself, im just saying its not good advice to give to someone first time.

Of course I've become defensive, because you've been attacking my post by talking nonsense. Oral only cycles have been used successfully for years without any more serious issues than longer test cycles. It's not a terrible idea or anything close just because it wouldn't suit you. 

I agree that a 12 week test cycle will be more effective than an 8 week tbol cycle. It's pretty obvious that is the case.

A first timer however, like many, may not want to run a 12 week cycle,  or risk gyno, or hair loss, or he might not want to inject and risk PIP or infection or embolisms. If that is the case the alternative is an oral cycle, and so I suggested that as an alternative. 

As I said before, stop rubbishing my post just because it wouldn't suit you. I simply let the OP know that he has a choice to make.

 

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