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Keto bulking??

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Posted

So in the last year i've gone from roughly 168lb 22% bf to 161lb 12%, i've made the best progress this last month using keto and have taken a fancy to the foods and the energy balance. I'm not gona start self diagnosing myself as sensative to carbs but I have found bf loss harder on high carbs even when restricting kcals to very low levels.

Unsuprisingly, with my kcals restricted to around 2000 during the last month of keto (avarage accross a week) i've started to hit a bit of a wall with regards to progress in the gym and have started to look into keto bulking, i'm also starting to feel smaller so feel its time to make a serious effort to gain some lean mass. My ideal would be to keep the current fat levels stable while gaining muscle so dropping total bf%.

I've been reading (mostly American) forums and information on this style of diet and it seems the conventional meathod would be to have a 24-36 hr carb up on the weekend with a small mid week carb up during the week although i've read some strong arguments for and against this meathod.

Once thing I've read is that it is harder/impossible for the body to create new muscle from protein with the absence of glycogen, is this true??

Also I've read that body fat can still be utilised for ketone bodies when muscle glycogen levels are high providing free/liver glycogen levels are low, again, if anyone can confirm or dispell this as if true this would make the plan more appealing for me??

My plan would be to have a 300kcal surplus with protein around 180-200g with the rest of the diet being high fat low carb apart from the carb ups.

Anyone with any thoughts or experiance on this I would appreciate your imput.

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Posted (edited)

Well you'll gain weight but I definitely would not do this.

I already vented my frustration in another keto thread.

If you're looking to mass up, keto is far from optimal. I can only ever see keto being useful when already lean 8% and wanting to get into competition body fat levels 6% and below.

This is coming from someone who thinks keto is a massive crock of sh[B]i[/B]t. I'm sure the keto lovers will try their hardest to sway your opinion.

You say you found fat loss harder with carbs in the diet, this is because you hold WATER. Also with more glycogen you look smoother.

It's an illusion, little water retention makes you look a lot leaner...... A LOT. Especially when higher bf%.

Look at top pro's who have a lot of water retention from the AAS and even more from HGH. They look 10-12% when in reality they are 7% and a few weeks out from competition. Edited by Wevans2303

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Posted

[quote name='Wevans2303']Well you'll gain weight but I definitely would not do this.

I already vented my frustration in another keto thread.

If you're looking to mass up, keto is far from optimal. I can only ever see keto being useful when already lean 8% and wanting to get into competition body fat levels 6% and below.

This is coming from someone who thinks keto is a massive crock of sh[B]i[/B]t. I'm sure the keto lovers will try their hardest to sway your opinion.[/QUOTE]

From a neutral point of view poeple have had fantastic results on keto

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Posted

[quote name='Wevans2303']Well you'll gain weight but I definitely would not do this.

I already vented my frustration in another keto thread.

If you're looking to mass up, keto is far from optimal. I can only ever see keto being useful when already lean 8% and wanting to get into competition body fat levels 6% and below.

This is coming from someone who thinks keto is a massive crock of sh[B]i[/B]t. I'm sure the keto lovers will try their hardest to sway your opinion.[/QUOTE]

Without sounding like a total cnut, this was kinda the reply I was hoping not to get for 2 reasons.

1 - You clearly don't like keto, ive had the best cutting results in my life from this style of diet, there is also a scientific base as to why this style is better for fat loss for people of any weight, the simple fact that ketones can't be re-stored as fat makes it better for fat loss than high carb diets.

2 - You say its not optimal but have not stated any valid reasons, i've said i've read people who are pro and con but i'm looking for more than just an oppinion.

Not trying to be a tw@t about it, if you could elaborate your views with some factual base i'd appreciate it.

Cheers for the response all the same.

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Posted

Gains will b slower so I've been told but I've tried but cutting and bulking with it got a say the water loss is great bt bulking just feels rubbish I like the high carbs etc I might be wrong bt sure milky likes keto shud ask him, I'd advise getting your fats from healthy sources to

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Posted

[quote name='chambers9k']From a neutral point of view poeple have had fantastic results on keto[/QUOTE]

Bulking, cutting or both??

Got any stats/numbers?

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Posted

[quote name='andymc88']Gains will b slower so I've been told but I've tried but cutting and bulking with it got a say the water loss is great bt bulking just feels rubbish I like the high carbs etc I might be wrong bt sure milky likes keto shud ask him, I'd advise getting your fats from healthy sources to[/QUOTE]

Already on the healthy fats bro, I might PM milky for his views.

Cheers

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Posted

[quote name='bartonz20let']Bulking, cutting or both??

Got any stats/numbers?[/QUOTE]

Cutting mate, it was in reply to the guys rant. I got no clue about bulking though mate sorry

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Posted

If you are going to give this a go i would be intrested in hearing how it goes. I have cut on a keto diet before and it was amazing tbh, best diet i have ever used, feels bad first week or two then boom it just works but im not strict enough to stick to it at the minute!

Ive never known anybody to bulk on a keto would be good to see or hear from someone who has

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Posted

No problem, if I can get a clear idea of how it works or find people who have done it before i'll be doing it myslef and will prob start a journal for it too.

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Posted

I never did full keto mate, l did a sort of limited Keto, very few carbs daily and none in the evening...

I never found a loss of strength or size, and l was also on a deficit to cut. It worked a treat IMO. I also ate what ever carbs l wanted on a sunday.

IMO if you add 300 cals in the way you suggest you will gain some lean mass, as long as you train hard ( obvioulsy )

I see no point in " bulking " and l like your approach mate, nice one.

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Posted

Heather Schofield ( UKBBF winner ) told me to use the king queen peasant theory on diet mate..

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Posted

[quote name='bartonz20let']Without sounding like a total cnut, this was kinda the reply I was hoping not to get for 2 reasons.

1 - You clearly don't like keto, ive had the best cutting results in my life from this style of diet, there is also a scientific base as to why this style is better for fat loss for people of any weight, the simple fact that ketones can't be re-stored as fat makes it better for fat loss than high carb diets.

2 - You say its not optimal but have not stated any valid reasons, i've said i've read people who are pro and con but i'm looking for more than just an oppinion.

Not trying to be a tw@t about it, if you could elaborate your views with some factual base i'd appreciate it.

Cheers for the response all the same.[/QUOTE]


1. For every article you find on why keto is so great I could equal you or better you in studies that show the opposite.

2. I say it's not optimal because i've tried to cut on it and gain mass on low carb diets, they just do not work for me, period. This whole game is based off experience and people do what works, the masses do not do keto to gain muscle and when cutting the masses do not go strict keto and take in a diet of 65+% fat.

Sure it's gunna work for some, cals in vs out, I don't deny that, any better than the 'standard' diet, no, accelerated fat loss is merely an illusion caused from holding less water. Again I use my pro example, they look 10-12% when they hold all the water from the GH etc. when in reality they only need to lose 1-2% more body fat and they are contest ready.

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Posted

Also i'd imagine you'd have to keep the macros to the same percentages to prevent glucogenesis?

Youve got me thinking now

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Posted

[quote name='Milky'] as long as you train hard ( obvioulsy )

I see no point in " bulking " and l like your approach mate, nice one.[/QUOTE]

I've been training like abit of a mad un recently, was determined to drop the bf% before I did anything like focus on mass, gona have a week off training, recover, re focus the diet and see if I can get over this plateau.

Thanks for the input man.

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Posted

[quote name='Wevans2303']accelerated fat loss is merely an illusion caused from holding less water.[/QUOTE]

Sorry bro, this simply isn't true, when KB's are produced they can not be re-stored, they are secreted through urine, (your basically p'ssing the excess energy out rather than storing it) whereas if carbs are present and fat is in its normal state the fat is stored and carbs are used for energy.

While this isn't accelerated fat loss per say it still increase nett loss over a standard diet.

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Posted

[quote name='willsy']Also i'd imagine you'd have to keep the macros to the same percentages to prevent glucogenesis?

Youve got me thinking now[/QUOTE]

Thats what i'm thinking.

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Posted

[quote name='bartonz20let']Sorry bro, this simply isn't true, when KB's are produced they can not be re-stored, they are secreted through urine, (your basically p'ssing the excess energy out rather than storing it whereas if carbs are present and fat is in its normal state the fat is stored and carbs are used for energy.

While this isn't accelerated fat loss per say it still increase nett loss over a standard diet.[/QUOTE]

Then why is it that I got to my leanest ever faster than keto and I was eating coco pops and ice cream daily and had carbs higher than protein?

We could argue this until the end of the earth, if it makes you feel good i'm not going to stop you eating this way. If you can do this for a year and accept a sub 5lb gain in lean tissue good for you.

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Posted

[quote name='Wevans2303']Then why is it that I got to my leanest ever faster than keto and I was eating coco pops and ice cream daily and had carbs higher than protein?

We could argue this until the end of the earth, if it makes you feel good i'm not going to stop you eating this way. If you can do this for a year and accept a sub 5lb gain in lean tissue good for you.[/QUOTE]

The ice cream and coco pops diet may work wonders for you. But i'm guessing it's not gonna for everyone else.

Thats said i've got mates who rave about keto, and others who hate it

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Posted

[quote name='Wevans2303']Then why is it that I got to my leanest ever faster than keto and I was eating coco pops and ice cream daily and had carbs higher than protein?

We could argue this until the end of the earth, if it makes you feel good i'm not going to stop you eating this way. If you can do this for a year and accept a sub 5lb gain in lean tissue good for you.[/QUOTE]


Ok we do understand that different people metablise different food groups more efficiently?

I read a study im trying to find again that showed iirc 65% of people metabolise fat more efficiently than carbs hence keto works wonders for the majority of people...

When i find the study i will bang it up here

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Posted

I am not a lover of full Keto. Like l say l prefer the king queen peasant theory..

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Posted

[quote name='chambers9k']The ice cream and coco pops diet may work wonders for you. But i'm guessing it's not gonna for everyone else.

Thats said i've got mates who rave about keto, and others who hate it[/QUOTE]

Mate before I used my head I used to think you needed to keep an eye on carbs at all times not just for cutting, as soon as I realised that it's all complete bollocks and the reality of it is it makes little/no difference I started ramping carbs up, being able to train a lot harder and was actually able to enjoy my diet.


[quote name='willsy']Ok we do understand that different people metablise different food groups more efficiently?

I read a study im trying to find again that showed iirc 65% of people metabolise fat more efficiently than carbs hence keto works wonders for the majority of people...

When i find the study i will bang it up here[/QUOTE]


I would LOVE to see how many people they used for that study.

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Posted

[quote name='Wevans2303']Mate before I used my head I used to think you needed to keep an eye on carbs at all times not just for cutting, as soon as I realised that it's all complete bollocks and the reality of it is it makes little/no difference I started ramping carbs up, being able to train a lot harder and was actually able to enjoy my diet.





I would LOVE to see how many people they used for that study.[/QUOTE]

So whats the secret then dude? just a calorie deficit?

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Posted

[quote name='chambers9k']So whats the secret then dude? just a calorie deficit?[/QUOTE]

Ethiopian diet maybe?

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