winger

Damn that was a long read.

Welcome to the board Bill!

Bill, I don't think Hackskii was trying to come across as being the smart guy, he has a passion as do you.

Also, is IQ specific to a certain job? Why did you look up his profile in the first place?
You were doing so well.....lol

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Pscarb

Hell of a read guys, It is refreshing to see a good debate...

Bill stay around mate i know you are a busy guy but your input like everyone else's is valued....

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w_llewellyn

IQ is a measure of intelligence, not knowledge. Hackskii may be a smart guy, but he does not have a deep understanding of AA metabolism and physiology. At best I believe he did read the Zone diet and a few pubmed abstracts. IQ doesn't automatically instill someone with the understanding of human physiology. It does give him the tools to learn though if he chooses, and I hope he does take the time to do that.

And again, from where I am sitting, Hackskii's comments about my work, my motives, my lack of compassion for my fellow man, and the industry I work in as a whole are very insulting. I am normally very composed but it is getting difficult to keep responding to this nitwit..

w_llewellyn

I also am frustrated that I have spent so much time even answering this guy. This will be my 25th post in less than 24 hours. I spent a great deal of time yesterday to dig up medical abstracts to address just about every key point he has made, and they are simply ignored. Instead of addressing my responses on a technical level, I am met with things like "Look at Bill Philips, and EAS", "the industry is all about making money", and "the FDA doesn't care about people". This is no longer science, and I am not sure how to even communicate with this guy at this point. He says that he likes a scientific debate, but has prodced extremely little science on his side - just a lot of insults and emotion..

I suggest if Hackskii would like to continue this at all, he counter my safety data with specific data of his own. Where is his proof that with a normal heatlhy population:

AA supplementation increases insulin resistance

AA supplementation increases platelet aggregation

AA supplementation increases vasoconstriction or blood pressure

AA supplementation causes negative effects on the immune system

Exercise does not lower AA levels in the body

AA supplementation causes BPH or cancer

Bodybuilders are largely insulin resistant

I am not sure how closely you are reading, but I have presented strong evidence that is counter to every statement above. Hackskii is also contradicting not only me, but the FDA and every expert that presented data to the FDA supporting GRAS status on AA. I 'd like to see Hackskii prove with other medical papers that all the data I've shown is incorrect. And again, I'd like to see relevant models since that is what I have provided. In-vivo human supplementation studies, not emotional responses about how "bad" this or that must be. The data is there. AA has been extensively studies for decades. Put up or shut up I guess is what they say.

Tinytom

What an excellent debate.

A lot of this stuff on fats goes over my head TBH.

I tried X-Factor about a year ago and did notice some results but not what it says on the tub (although I understand the importance of marketing)

I also didnt have any detrimental effects that my docs tests showed.

I think that the price over here in the UK makes it less appealing than in the USA.

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pikey

• Increased pump in the muscle
• Increased pain when training
• Increased post workout soreness
• Feel like vomiting every workout
• Not sleeping brilliantly

Pscarb

Hi mate nice to see you over here again looking forward to seeing you at the finals again in 2008...

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pikey

Hi Paul, Cheers mate same goes, going to get into the prep mode from 2nd Jan, should be fun as Andy is aiming to make an impact in class 2..

winger

Say, what type of study was that?

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hackskii

I said this: “Many people (more than not) are insulin resistant, in fact it is over half the population in the US.”

You said I said this: “It is a Fact that Half the U.S. population is diabetic”

I didn’t say that and you know it, twisting around my words to make me appear wrong is laughable. This does not help your arguments at all; in fact make you look childish. Also attacking me does nothing towards defending your posts and only tells me that a healthy debate will only result into character attacks.
I never said I was an expert on anything; in fact I gave my credentials to keep the debate on topic.

Bodybuilders do not have deficiencies of AA (as you claim), there are tests to determine this (SIP) and for your information there is an excess in the typical American diet. If you are referring to low fat diets, or vegetarianism then ok, that is a whole different group. Typical American diets are low in fish, inflammation is high, and the balance of excess AA in the diet is too high, not to mention too many Omega 6's and not enough Omega 3's. I bring this up as you seem to be sheltered on the ratio's that promote inflammation, or are closing your eyes to what is going on (and you talk about me not listening, you hypocrite. :doh.
Bodybuilders eat red meat and eggs and more than the typical American diet in these macro's.

Can asthmatics supplement AA?
How about auto-immune disease can they supplement AA?
How about people with diabetes or people that are insulin resistant?
How about arthritic or rheumatoid people?
Men with BPH?
Bodybuilders that use insulin?
People with hyperinsulinemia?
People with high fat diets?
People that eat a lot of eggs and steak?
How about guys that suffer from too much inflammation like people that suffer from plantar fasciitis or us weight lifters that constantly have joint aches from over 30 years of lifting?
What about people with colitis?
How about people with high cholesterol?
How about people on Statins which are the only drugs known to increase AA production?
What about people that have a high GI diet and eat a lot of processed foods?
I can go on and could make a very large list of people that should not take this product.

Inflammation hinders recovery and injury, sure taking anti-inflammatory drugs help heal injury to slow inflammatory response and do hinder muscle gain.
You suggest that white willow bark not be taken, great, you didn’t say why but as with aspirin, ibuprophen, and even fish oils, this kills AA’s response to PG-2 which is the pro-inflammation prostaglandin and would render your product useless.

Again there is no shortage of AA in the typical American diet, and certainly not in the bodybuilders diet. So what if AA gets used with exercise, does this mean that there is a need to supplement this?...............NO!

In fact, you are compromising health for muscular size, and making money doing it. Shame on you Bill.
Hell, you are making it out that you are a humanitarian and I am evil. Truth is you are only defending your product to line your wallet. All your posts on this board are to attack me and or defend your product, you are no better than all the other supplement companies that own muscle magazines to sell their useless products.
I have PM’d you more than once on messo board and you never PM’d me back.
Now you seem not too busy to bash my character?

I have nothing to lose here, but I will expose you for what you are a profiteer.
Your claim of 1 to 2 pounds a week is a joke, hell even Deca wont do that.
That and your suggestion of all of it being keep able, is only an exaggeration to defend your product. Your MD article means nothing to me coming from a magazine that is owned by TwinLabs.
And this is not biased?
Dude, why in the hell would I even read that when it is clearly slanted to endorse products that it advertises? That is like asking my wife if I am handsome, her answer is obviously yes. Not to mention much of the research is done by supplement companies and this in itself is biased.
Retail price of this inflammatory substance is $70.00. Great, I am going to spend that much money on an AA product when I can get that out of a juicy steak and egg breakfast? The amount of arachidonic acid in a single yolk is roughly 1/9th of a gram.
Hell, I could have a couple of tablespoons of corn oil and skyrocket AA in my body for pennies…..lol
What is so special about supplementing your AA instead of food?

Longevity in weight lifting comes from the ability to train at optimal levels with no injuries. Even slightly elevated levels of AA in athlete’s shows to reduce training ability by significant amounts due to joint inflammation, and if you know bodybuilding at all you will note joint issues such as arthritis are the biggest complaint. I for one suffer from this and take fish oils to lower inflammation in my body. I would never take this product.
Again, if you have a good diet, eating meats, eggs and even dairy, you won’t need to supplement AA.
If anything it should be kept in check, with the American diet high in AA and low in Omega 3’s inflammation is an issue. Free range eggs have 19 times the Omega 3 in them than store bought eggs, hell our cattle is not even free range and the Omega 3’s in the American diet is low and that if anything needs to be supplemented.
Again Americans are about 1/10 to 1/25 of Omega 3’s to Omega 6’s. Optimum levels of Omega 3 to 6 is 1/1 to ¼, adding in AA only pushes this further out of whack. As you know Omega 3’s aid in good eicosanoid production and elevates PG-1 and PG-3 which are both anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. The SIP test that is done here in America only supports that most people have too much AA in their diets. AA is an Omega 6, sadly we have too much Omega 6’s in our diets due to vegetable oils and too low Omega 3’s due to the free range animals are almost nonexistent, and we dont eat enough oily fish.
So, Omega 6 is too high, inflammation is high; adding AA to the diet is downright dangerous.
Not to mention that X-Factor is accessible to everyone that has a credit card or cash, I am sure there are not any disclaimers on the bottle. You know how gullible the kids and adults are, take these pills and grow muscles. I am sure Bill you have no problem selling your product to the non target groups to line your wallet. So much for "YOUR" credibility. Hell, you even push this poision in your book. Shame on you Bill, you remind me of another Bill, that endorced another worthless product for monitary gain.

Did you know that the highest concentration of prostaglandins in the mans body is in the prostate?
Hence the name prost”a”glandin. If I said fish oils helped me urinate harder with better flow, and they raise PG-1 in the body which is an anti-inflammation prostaglandin, and keeps PG-2 at bay which is an inflammation prostaglandin, why in the hell would I compromise this by adding AA into my diet which would elevate PG-2 and cause excess inflammation to my body, and the prostate?
This could very well compromise my healthy prostate due to excess PG-2.
In a study Omega 6 fatty acid when consumed in excess amounts, promote the growth of prostate tumor cells. Omega 6 fatty acids (arachidonic acid) were also found to be higher in the brains of many rats that showed signs of depression.


I would recommend you read more on eicosanoids, good and bad, AA elevates bad eicosanoid production, and I can tell you that you won’t be able to discredit that statement unless you miss quote it like you did above.
High AA levels are heavily associated with depression, Chronic Fatigue, Sleep difficulties (and as you know most recovery comes from good sleep) not to mention is the building block of bad eicosanoids.
Fish oils that are high in DHA are known to help with depression, fat loss among other positive things.

You will like this snip:
Arachidonic acid is the building block for PGJ2. This eicosanoid is a PPAR gamma agonist, which has been shown to stimulate the transformation of stem cells in the adipose tissue to differentiate into new fat cells. The adipose tissue is one of the few tissues that can rapidly grow new cells with the proper hormonal stimulate. This is one of the primary reasons why increased accumulation of arachidonic acid in the fat cells causes obesity.

Could the above the reason why the 1 to 2 pounds of muscle is gained?.......lol

__________________
If drinking is interfering with your work, you're probably a heavy drinker. If work is interfering with your drinking, you're probably an alcoholic.

Scott

thestudbeast

Well Hack's I think he answers most questions well, you know we have differing views on this topic......................

but I bet he won't answer why his product is better than consuming some liver and egg yolks each day (both of which are high in AA).

I think the key point that came out of out discusion over wether a BB could be defficient in AA was that modern food production means high AA in foods where there should be none (salmon for example). Still I think it is possible to be difficient if you train.

Still I stand to be corrected.

hackskii

Snip......

Arachidonic Acid: How it Creates Disease

However, the natural and more likely chemical conversion of dietary LA will go on to be converted into Arachidonic acid, a 20 carbon long chain fatty acid that is also found in animal products, specifically red meat, dairy and eggs. Arachidonic acid (AA) will lead to PG2 series of chemical mediators, which are pro-inflammatory, contribute to platelet aggregation and increased constriction of the vessels. The platelet aggregation and vessels changes if also coupled with a poor diet- which would favour low nutrients and high blood lipids- can contribute to an increased CVD risk. AA can also create thromboxanes of the 2 series, specifically thromboxane A2 (TXA2) which is a more potent vasoconstrictor and promotes platelet aggregation. In addition, eicosanoid metabolites from AA such as prostaglandin E2 (PGE2), leukotriene B4, 12-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid and TXA2 have all been positively linked to carcinogenesis.

The main symptoms associated with too much AA or sensitivity to it are:

Chronic Fatigue

Poor or restless sleep

difficulty awakening or grogginess upon awakening

brittle hair

thin, brittle nails

constipation

Dry, flaking skin

Minor rashes

__________________
If drinking is interfering with your work, you're probably a heavy drinker. If work is interfering with your drinking, you're probably an alcoholic.

Scott

Stomp

I am not a scientist and I have only used one cycle (2 bottles) of X-factor. However, I noticed none of those symptoms and some were just the opposite:

- Somewhat greasier skin and some minor acne
- A bit more hornier that usual
- Restfull sleep, no fatigue whatsoever

I can not comment about gains because I changed my training routine drastically just before I started the cycle which was a mistake. I will do another cycle starting in the end of January and I will then post my experiences.

w_llewellyn

I asked you to post medical references showing that the supplementation of AA in humans does any of what you say it does, and you have failed to do so. This response from you is very long and filled only with emotional speculation, supposition, and personal insults about my character and motives. I am not going to take the time to respond to these kinds of personal insults and comments.

Please, get back on topic and find relevant in-vivo references showing that the supplementation of AA has caused any of the things you suggested here. There have been dozens of supplementation studies on AA. If what you say is true you should be able to find evidence for it very easily.

w_llewellyn

This appears to be the only attempt at providing some medical reference. Again, it fails to be in a study where they actually gave AA to a human. My counter for it is a simple supplementation study where they gave 1,500mg of AA daily for 50 days to human subjects. For the record, this is officially the 4th time you have ignored this information and tried to present it as fact yet again.


The effect of dietary arachidonic acid on platelet function, platelet fatty acid composition, and blood coagulation in humans.

Nelson GJ, Schmidt PC, Bartolini G, Kelley DS, Kyle D.
Western Human Nutrition Research Center, ARS, USDA, San Francisco, California 94129, USA.
Arachidonic acid (AA) is the precursor of thromboxane and prostacyclin, two of the most active compounds related to platelet function. The effect of dietary AA on platelet function in humans is not understood although a previous study suggested dietary AA might have adverse physiological consequences on platelet function. Here normal healthy male volunteers (n = 10) were fed diets containing 1.7 g/d of AA for 50 d. The control diet contained 210 mg/d of AA. Platelet aggregation in the platelet-rich plasma was determined using ADP, collagen, and AA. No statistical differences could be detected between the aggregation before and after consuming the high-AA diet. The prothrombin time, partial thromboplastin time, and the antithrombin III levels in the subjects were determined also. There were no statistically significant differences in these three parameters when the values were compared before and after they consumed the high-AA diet. The in vivo bleeding times also did not show a significant difference before and after the subjects consumed the high-AA diet. Platelets exhibited only small changes in their AA content during the AA feeding period. The results from this study on blood clotting parameters and in vitro platelet aggregation suggest that adding 1.5 g/d of dietary AA for 50 d to a typical Western diet containing about 200 mg of AA produces no observable physiological changes in blood coagulation and thrombotic tendencies in healthy, adult males compared to the unsupplemented diet. Thus, moderate intakes of foods high in AA have few effects on blood coagulation, platelet function, or platelet fatty acid composition.