Truewarrior1

yes i did WMS on the mind im afraid!,the prohormone comment wasn't directed at your company bill as you don't sell any to my knowledge,merely commenting that not everything coming out of the supplement industry is safe.

"X-Factor is the result of YEARS worth of hard work, experimentation, and dedication to a very new technology our industry has not known before."

what new technology? hard work and experimentation yes,what dedication to a very new technology?


from my point of view it looks like you've found out AA has an anabolic effect,funded 2 studies,tested it on people,found out it works,and sold it at a huge mark-up?

how is corn oil AA different from your AA?

"The level of AA in the diet has been shown to have no impact on whether or not you get cancer. It is not a carcinogen. It is a potent growth promoter, however, and like others of this class such as growth hormone, IGF-1, anabolic/androgenic steroids should never be used if you have cancer. These agents may increase the growth of cancer cells like they would normal cells."

that study doesn't show you GET cancer from it,but that if you have cancer AA will speed up the process! yes just like we know AAS/GH/IGF does,but where's the warning when u buy your product saying 'if you have cancer,don't take this,because it'll help the cancer survive' and how many people really know they have cancer until they get the symptoms?very few i'd imagine.

don't take this personal,i used to love you and PA arguing for days on end :love:

__________________
When You Dance With The Devil You Wait For The Song To Stop.

Currently HULKING OUT!

ah24

Thats great, cheers mate.

If you do end up doing it a discounted rate on here or need people to test it - drop me a PM

dmcc

Oi ah, TH and I asked first!

__________________
Bitte beachten Sie beim einsteigen die Lücke zwischen Zug und Bahnsteigkante.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ah24

You can't stick to a diet so the results would be void...too many variables:love:

Plus pre-comp is a little different to just average rec. weightlifter

dmcc

Git. :love: And I never said that I can't stick to a diet, just that I'm not that bothered about diets.

__________________
Bitte beachten Sie beim einsteigen die Lücke zwischen Zug und Bahnsteigkante.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

hackskii

Welcome to the board first off.
I was wondering when you were going to defend your product and reputation.
I love your books but I would totally recommend not supplementing AA in the body.

Your statement above seems to me to be incorrect.
I think you are reffering to insulin sensitivity PWO and yes exercise helps against insulin resisitance.
Adding AA to your body increases insulin resistance not the other way around.

If you are suggesting that bodybuilders are defficient in AA, think again.
Dr. Sears has devoted alot of his medical field in research to this very topic.
The SIP test suggests that AA is too high in the typical American diet.
Bodybuilders eat more food due to physical requirements than the average joe and not to mention many of the bodybuilders diet is high in AA, not the other way around as you suggest.

I want you to re-read my posts carefully, they reflect my feelings on this topic.
For the record I am adament against the use of supplementing AA in the diet.

Insulin resistance and a diet high in AA is not healthy, period.

__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

hackskii

Could AA be a contributor of colorectal cancer, or auto-immune disorders?
PubMed that one…..lol

If the typical American diet is too high in Omega 6 fatty acids, why would I add AA to my diet if I already have enough in my diet?
Too many Omega 6’s in the diet disrupt good eicosanoid production. If the ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6’s in the diet is optimum at 1/1 to ¼, and the typical American diet is 1/10 to 1/25, why would or should I add AA to my diet?

There is a test called The Silent Inflammation Profile (SIP) that is very new and this test determines the EPA to AA ratio in the body. Seems the Japanese have very low incidence in heart disease this test determines the persons profile of eicosanoid production for good health. Japanese have the lowest SIP test of any Country, Americans have one of the highest AA to EPA ratio. With that said, you suggest we weight lifters are difficient?.............I highly doubt that one, if anything it is too high and avoidance of AA would be better than supplementing it.
Again the Americans diet is too high in the ratio of AA to EPA? So, with that said, do you really feel this is necessary to supplement?

You said the “FDA has even granted Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) status on AA”
Oh man, is this the same FDA that approved Vioxx as safe? You know the one that killed all those people it was supposed to help, before it got pulled from the market, and lawsuits pending?
Or the original Statin drugs that killed more people than it helped that were FDA approved?
Is this the Same AA that Dr. Barry Sears has been warning the general public about for the last 20 years?
Barry Sears has been the pioneer leader in this country for eicosanoid research, he routinely expresses his concern on the dangers of too much AA.

Ironically, the higher your insulin levels, the more your body is stimulated to make increased levels of arachidonic acid. (AA) is a long-chain omega-6 fatty acid. Enchaned production of good eicosanoids requires the presence of EPA and DHA long chain "omega 3" fats, found in fish oil.
So much for your suggestion that AA lowers insulin resistance.

Copy and paste from some of Sears work: LOX Enzymes
Unlike inhibitors of the COX enzymes, there are very few inhibitors of the LOX enzymes. Since leukotrienes (particular LTB4) represent a primary mediator of pain, then the only way to affect their production is to use corticosteroids with all of their associated side effects. However, the leukotrienes synthesized from EPA are physiologically neuter compared to those derived from arachidonic acid. This is why the AA/EPA ratio is a very good indicator of the body's potential to prevent the over-production of leukotrienes without using resorting to the use of corticosteroids.
Drug companies are racing to develop new patentable drugs--ones that affect the downstream enzymes that control eicosanoid production from arachidonic acid. Overlooked in this frenzy by the drug companies seeking new and more expensive drugs to go downstream to modify eicosanoid synthesis, is that there is an existing "drug" that can achieve all of these benefits without any side effects. This is because it goes upstream to modify eicosanoid production by reducing arachidonic acid levels. That "drug" is high-dose fish oil since the elevated levels of EPA will reduce the production of "bad" eicosanoids (such as PGE2 and LTB4) derived from arachidonic acid.

Another snip:
This is because the end product that the delta-5-desaturase enzyme that produces from DGLA is arachidonic acid (AA). DGLA is the building block of many of the "good" eicosanoids, whereas AA is the building block of "bad" eicosanoids. Thus excess amounts of AA can be one of your worst hormonal nightmares. Ultimately, it is the balance between DGLA and AA in every one of your 60 trillion cells that determines which types of eicosanoids you will produce. You need some AA to produce some "bad" eicosanoids, but in the case of excess production of AA, the balance of eicosanoids will shift toward accelerated aging and chronic disease.
Some of the Eicosanoids Derived from Arachidonic Acid

Arachidonic Acid (AA)

COX 5-LOX 12 and 15 LOX

PGH2 TXA2 LTB4 12-HETE Lipoxin

PGD2 PGI2
LTBC4 15-HETE
PGJ2 PGF2a PGE2
PGB2 LTBD4
PGA2
LTBE4

Many of these eicosanoids derived from arachidonic acid can be considered to be "bad" because they promote inflammation (PGE2 and LTB4) and decrease blood flow (TXA2). In addition, the inflammatory "bad" eicosanoids can also promote the release of other pro-inflammatory cytokines.

Another snip
Insulin was an activator of the delta-5-desaturase enzyme. The role of excess insulin in negatively affecting eicosanoid balance also explained why excess insulin was highly associated with heart disease. It wasn't that insulin was a cause, but that it drove the metabolism of essential fatty acids to make more arachidonic acid, and therefore more "bad" eicosanoids. The more "bad" eicosanoids you make, the more likely you will promote platelet aggregation and increased vasoconstriction, the underlying factors for a heart attack.

Seems much of what you are saying is in contradiction to what is already been known about this pro-inflammatory substance.
So you say you are not a profiteer?
This might interest you some…lol
Bill Phillips had a product called HMB and said it was supposed to be similar to Deca, it wasn’t, he was wrong, he made a ton of money and never apologized for making a mistake.

Magazines are owned by supplement company’s like these for instance:
Muscle and fitness-------------------Weider Products
Muscle Media------------------------EAS
Muscular Development---------------TwinLab
Pump-------------------------------SoCal
Muscle Mag-------------------------Robert Kennedy's Line/Muscle Tech
Flex--------------------------------Weider Products
Testosterone-----------------------Biotest

See how ****ing easy it is to deceive?
Are they liars?-----------Yep.
Do they make money?----Yep.
Is it right?---------------Nope.

I think what you are doing, you feel are right but I don’t believe you have read up enough on this substance to verify it is in fact safe let’s say 20 years down the road?
There is a huge range of people that should avoid this product, only a small portion of this population could see benefits from this with no health consequences. This product does nothing to promote good health and everything to promote poor health.

Diets high in omega-6 fats and saturated fats are associated with greater prostate cancer risk, whereas increased intake of omega-3 fats from fish has been shown to reduce risk.
Snip:
Based on studies showing that consumption of foods rich in arachidonic acid is greatest in regions with high incidences of prostate cancer,26,30,35,49 scientists sought to determine how much of the 5-LOX enzyme is present in malignant versus benign prostate tissues.

Using biopsy samples taken from living human patients, the researchers found that 5-LOX levels were an astounding six-fold greater in malignant prostate tissues compared to benign tissues. This study also found that levels of 5-HETE (a 5-LOX metabolite that prevents prostate cancer destruction) were 2.2-fold greater in malignant versus benign prostate tissues.33

The scientists concluded this study by stating that selective inhibitors of 5-LOX may be useful in the prevention or treatment of patients with prostate cancer.

As a man, this does not concern you William?
The very fact that every man in the world if he lives long enough will have some form of prostate problems whether it be BPH, prostatitis, or prostate cancer, all men will have one or more of these conditions if he lives long enough.
Still think pushing this poison is a good idea?
I know from first hand experiance that fish oils helped me urinate harder with more flow. I am 48 years old and noticed this very thing with fish oils after about 3 months.
I would bet alot of money that if I added X-Factor to my diet that those benefits from fish oils would be reversed, I would lay money on this and might just go ahead and do it to prove my point, at my own health risk.

I have no interest in this other than good health, you can defend your position if you like but it goes against everything I have learned on good Eicosanoid production, not to mention you are making money off of this stuff.
What is to say that the kids won’t take more than suggested? You know how bodybuilders are; they routinely take more than suggested.

__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

w_llewellyn

You are continuing to confuse a regular sedentary model for active training people. To begin with, contrary to what you say about dietary AA levels being sufficient, studies consistently show that people that regularly train have lower levels of AA in muscle phospholipids and a reduced prostaglandin response. It is one of the things that leads to training stagnation.

You do correctly link higher AA release to higher insulin levels, but it is a consequence, not cause. Furthermore, the model you are talking about is, again, sedentary, and with people noticing insulin resistance. Indeed with insulin resistance comes elevated release of AA and elevated inflammatory cytokine IL-6 (a key marker of systemic inflammation). Hyperinsulinemia is closely related to systemic inflammation.

But again, that is not what happens with active training people who supplement AA - whose bodies are utilizing AA on constant basis to build/repair skeletal muscle tissue. Our studies demonstrated that AA combined with resistance training actually reduced IL-6, not increased it. It seems most logical to say that AA improves the local tissue response to training, and as a result many of the good things come from productive workouts.

w_llewellyn

BTW - Linoleic acid is the main fatty acid to be concerned about with regard to prostate cancer, not AA. There is a positive correlation between dietary LA and cancer risk, whereas no such association was shown with AA. You also cannot support assertions made about AA by looking at studies talking about total Omega-6 intake. As you know, Omega 6 represents a broad category of fatty acids, of which AA is only 1.

I will agree with you so far as to say if you have prostate hypertrophy, cancer, elevated PSA values etc you shouldn't take AA, or anabolic steroids for that matter. If you are healthy, however, I consider your position alarmist since it concerns an essential fatty acid with an enormous amount of safety data behind it. As far as anabolic substances go, it is far safer than hormones, and we all know how overstated the risks of those are. I have studied AA for years and find absolutely no reason anyone should be concerned with using it so long as they are healthy and do not suffer from an inflammatory disease.

w_llewellyn

And I am not sure you are actually reading my posts closely. It seems you are more interested in posting your next response instead of actually taking the time to look at what I am presenting here. I assume you are open minded enough to actually consider what I am saying, and I am not taking the time to answer you for nothing. I write this because you bring up things like platelet aggregation and vasoconstriction in your last post after I already posted a study showing this level of AA use has absolutely no effect on these biomarkers of health. I am not sure we are communicating if you aren't even addressing what I am posting..

w_llewellyn

And I am sorry, but many of your comments are getting very difficult to respond to. I don't really understand what VIOXX and statins have to do with AA. All prescription drugs have risks that are balanced in the eyes of the FDA by their therapeutic value. This is entirely different than what the FDA regards as safe for use as a dietary ingredient; for use in baby food. And your comments about the industry, etc.. I don't know what to say except that it seems like your mind is already made up. You are not even addressing what I write when it is in contrary to one of your posts. You simply move on to the next angle. This is usually a sign the other party is not listening at all.

For what it is worth, you say that I simply haven't studied AA enough, yet I contend I have studied it far more extensively than most in this field. I'd wager I also studied it much more than you have. I highly doubt you can claim to have had literally hundreds if not thousands of studies on arachidonic acid littering your house for the past 6 or 7 years. It has been nearly my complete professional focus for the better part of a decade. So yes, I find your comment not only inaccurate, but a little condescending.

Nytol

Interesting stuff.

What do you have to say Bill???

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

hackskii

Condescending?..................Maybe.
Is it warranted?.................Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell you what, for every study you post on the benefits of AA, I will post 2 on the dangers of excess AA.
Deal?

Vioxx as well as the first Statins and many medications have killed people.
My point is this. FDA is no friend of the people it represents.
Is Vioxx and the early Statins in line with AA, no, of course not, but it kind of levels the playing field that your product is safe, doesn’t it?
Guess you can’t use that argument that the FDA says it is ok right?

I got news for you.
Many people (more than not) are insulin resistant, in fact it is over half the population in the US. Diabetes is on the rise and is the highest ever.
Due to our heavily processed foods and simple sugars this is going to get worse before it gets better, just watch and see. Oh, and even that elevates AA.......lol

Where is the deficiencies in AA in the bodybuilders diet?
This I would love to see big time, and the studies that are not slanted with a poor diet.

The body is awesome at trying to maintain homeostasis; it does not want to stay in anabolism.
And before we get too far ahead of ourselves, you seem to be putting X-Faxtor in the same category as anabolics...........Please spare me ok?
Don’t insult the members of this board like that to push your inflammation.

Fact, vasoconstriction is a reality with AA, this is not good.
Insulin resistance is not good.
Together this is worse than the sum of one.
In light of the fact most people are insulin resistant, have too much inflammation in their bodies, and have far too high Omega 6 to 3 in their bodies, you still stand your ground?
Guess what?....................I am the guy to call foul here.

Your group of people that would be safe to take this product is very small, yet anyone can buy it and abuse it for that matter.
I am not listening?..................FYI, I don’t miss much, yes I am very opinionated on this very issue, same as you if not more, but I don’t have a financial gain in it either, as you do.

I could give you some reading that might open your closed eyes, I will answer any question you have, I will also swap you 2 for 1 on the studies of AA, this seems like a fair trade off to me.
But I am not condescending for no reason, I just disagree with you and whole heartedly, this is my passion if you have not noticed…….lol

I know why you are here, to defend your product and probably got here by one of the search engines. That is cool; this shows me that others can do this search too. Not only that but now they can read the dangers of this poison while you defend it.
Your only posts are here to defend your product.
I am here to alert others of the dangers of things and do so with no monetary gain.

I enjoy a healthy, even heated dabate, and if I am wrong then I will be the first to admit it. I have no degrees, no medical experiance, nothing, but it does not take rocket science to figure this basic equation out.

Listen up ok?
Too much AA in the body is bad.
Prostate?
Love this topic, BPH happens to be an inflammatory problem, I am sure that AA is counterproductive to this.
Estrogen is the problem with prostate issues and we can have a debate on this one if you wish.
IF AA is hypertrophic as you say then BPH wont be too hard to swallow here eh?
So, you are saying that X-Factor is site specific as an anabolic responce in muscle tissue only, and not the prostate?

So, as you can see there is a very small percentage of the population that can take this product, yet anyone can have access to it.
Is that fair?
Is that right?
Now do you feel I am condesending?

__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

w_llewellyn

And might I add, since you clearly disagree with the FDA and all the studies and experts that came forth to support its GRAS classification. What kind of qualifications do you actually have, aside from reading a Barry Sears book? It says in your profile you are an airplane inspector. As an airplane inspector, how much of your average day is spent focusing on the physiological roles of AA in body?

w_llewellyn

I am really trying to stay professional and hang in here, but it is very difficult given your posts. I am starting to realize you are like many self declared experts on the internet - no experience, little background on the subject besides a general interest in bodybuilding and access to pubmed, and a sense of "right" and duty to let everyone else know how smart and correct you are. You simply are not right, and I can see that no amount of time spent proving this to you is going to make a damn of difference. Your mind is made up, and I am a busy many with more things to do than repeat myself over and over again to someone that won't listen.. So this is possibly my last post.

As painful as it was, I read your post and believe these were the relevant points:


The FDA doesn’t care about Americans because it approved VIOXX

No need to respond to this. There are no facts here.

It is a Fact that Half the U.S. population is diabetic

This is not true at all. Only 7% of the U.S. population is diabetic.

We still don’t recommend people take AA if they are diabetic BTW, and sell mainly to a healthy weight training population that are generally weak candidates for adult onset (insulin resistant) diabetes.

There are no AA deficiencies in Bodybuilders

This depends on how you define deficiency. Training does lower AA levels. One study in the MD article you don’t seem to want to read shows AA depletion. There are others I certainly am not going to take the time to find for you. Feel free to look into this yourself.

The body is awesome at trying to maintain homeostasis

Agreed. This says nothing about AA..

Fact, vasoconstriction is a reality with AA

No, facts need to be supported. It isn't a fact because you put those 4 letters in front of it. Case in point, you seem to be wrong about many things in your posts that have the word FACT in front of them.

Here, it is a fact that you are not correct. And for a third time you are ignoring all the safety data to the contrary.

Insulin Resistance is not Good

Agreed. Now show me that AA supplementation in healthy training people does anything of the sort. It doesn’t. Since IL-6 is related to insulin resistance, I can and have shown you data suggesting it does the opposite.

Most people are insulinresistant

Again, very wrong. And also very ignorant of you to say, as you treat the readers like they must be sedentary couch potatoes instead of an active population, which due to lifestyle will likely never suffer from the ills of inactivity like obesity, metabolic syndrome, and adult onset diabetes.

BPH happens to be an inflammatory problem, I am sure that AA is counterproductive to this.

Yes, which is why you shouldn't take it if you have inflammation.

you are saying that X-Factor is site specific as an anabolic responce in muscle tissue only, and not the prostate?

AA is inert itself. Your body will convert it to anabolic substances as needed, mainly in skeletal muscle tissue. It doesn't simply make all your tissues and organs grow or inflame. You should know this. Taking it doesn't cause BPH either.

Your group of people that would be safe to take this product is very small

No, it isn’t at all. Everyone very actively exercising is a candidate so long as they are healthy.