paulo

guys- weve just started a new regime as we want more shoulder mass-got a good seated press 90k and have started 5x5s obviously looking to evennntually creep up reps, what do yous think of this sesh anyone did with succes before?-especially for shoulder size- we also do 3 sets rear delts fly

squat_this

Everyone is different mate...give 5x5 a try and see how it works for you.

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toxictoffee

5 reps is not the best for size
5 reps is not the best for strength

its a 'hyrbid' rep range to stimulate mild forms of both, and strength would not mean isolating rear delts, just do compounds or isolate and do compound at a higher rep range for pure size

Porky Pie

Hello Toxictoffee - I enjoy reading your posts. Very informative.

Why do you say 5x5 is not best for strength? I appreciate it does not work for top end strength but is the basis for good off season strength training. As such I've often used it myself (purely for strength training) and recommended it to others.

I'd be interested to know what other systems you would recommend.

Cheers - PP

toxictoffee

TBH strength and power will be found at a lower rep range

1-2 explosive power

5 reps is a hybrid starting point that neither favours hypertrophy (non specific/irrational) nor explosive power or real strength

its the basatrd child of both, yet fine for newbies

TBH power and strength training holds minimal interest to me but i would simply advocate cleans and presses on lower reps

if you want huge delts you have to (IMO):

be geneticaslly incline to develop them
train them initially with compounds reps 6, more like 8-10
then look to isolate heads later down the line once a BASE is built and you specificall find a weakness

this point is not reached (again IMO) for years

all rows hit posterior delts
all presses hit anterior delts

the though of isolating these for new trainers is IMO crazy

to build shoulders intially?

military press

12/10/8/6

deated DB press

12/10/8/6

thats pure hypertrophy and some functional, some none

for strength and power?

cleans 1-3 reps
push presses up to 5 reps

lat raises etc etc way down the line but certainly no isolation for strength alone

presses win, get the right rep range, easy enough

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Porky Pie

I think you'll find that 1-3 reps isn't practical for strength training year round. I accept and agree that 1-3 reps are the top end strength builders and have their place in competition run up.

The 5x5 system is great for strength and power (and size) in the off season, I think you're being a little hard on it.

"Presses win, get the rep range right, easy enough" - Agree with you there

toxictoffee

it depends on your goals as to what reps you would do

i dont see the logic in higher reps as that produces non functional hypertrophy

but again i dont train for strength

mass though on 5 reps = no, in the main and certainly not isolating on that rep range

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Porky Pie

My own experience is that 5 reps is good for mass, if you use big enough weights. I reckon I could make a good job of 120kg push pressing for 5x5. I only do presses for shoulders, shrugs and as you said earlier, rows take care of the rear delts.

That said I ain't no bodybuilder and have little interest in looking the part without being functionally strong and powerful.

toxictoffee

yes you may have had some gains BUT

circultaing IGF/test/GH are not present on low reps, CNS failure kicks in and beyond myofybril and sarcomere hypertrophy there is minimal increase in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

bbers train with higher reps to induce this

thats not IMO, thats science

irrational hypertrophy = high reps

5 is not optimum for size, period

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Porky Pie

Can you break down that second paragraph into more lay terms for me please.

toxictoffee

you fail before you can develop a specific sort of muscle growth due to the weight being too heavy

therefore high reps = more size although it has no real worth beyond being pretty

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tony1blue

LOL, perhaps Porky Pie will become your new 5x5 nemesis.

toxictoffee

i know, i know i shouldnt have tony

5 reps may give some size... like saying i drove around silverstone well quick in a ford escort....

maybe so

it would though be faster in a bugatti......

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Porky Pie

I will stick with 5x5 in the off season, thanks. I have no need to look any bigger than I already do, and I certainly do not want to be a weak as p!ss bodybuilder.

toxictoffee

sure

train for your needs

no point having fluff muscles if you dont want them, non functional hypertrophy is pretty pointless afterall

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whoever said it was in fact right, opinions really are like a**holes, everybody has to have one...thing is, some are sweet, yet many are simply full of sh*t