Biker

old post of mine:


PCT

Clomid (clomiphene Citrate)


What is it?

Classification: Synthetic oestrogen/hpta stimulator (strong gonadotropin stimulator/mild anti-oestrogen)

Clomid is clinically administered to assist women with ovulation. It's used by bodybuilders to assist with the re-start of natural testosterone production post anabolic steroid cycles. Clomid increases activity in the hypothalamus-pituary-gonadol axis by stinulating the release of more gondotropin from the pituary gland this causes a higher level of Luteinizin hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) which signals the testes leydig cells which then in turn manufature more testosterone and sperm. Another major factor is it's anti-oestrogen ability (similar to but weaker than nolva) this is an important time for blocking oestrogen from the receptors in the body as oestogen is often rampant post cycle.

How do I use it?

I have for a while now believed that the Clomid treatment recommended on many websites and books is in fact wrong and starts of too soon to be fully effective - this is backed up by speaking to several people that have had recovery problems but have found that a second run of clomid returns them to normal.

I don’t believe there’s any point in commencing clomid treatment until your blood levels of active steroid are 10mg or less every day (normal and natural average is about 7 or 8mg/day). Taken that most will agree that natural test production can not restart while non natural test in your blood exceeds the amount manufactured by your natural test production so you must wait until your androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals to your test production. Some people appear to believe that taking clomid during a cycle stops their test production from shutting down

Now the figures I use throughout this document can be argued perhaps someone else believes the halflife of said compound is a day or two different from what I’ve based my calculations on, and if that’s the case the day for starting clomid treatment may be different by a day or so.

Now many sites will tell you 21 days post sustanon cycle before commencing clomid what no one ever mentions is that it's dose dependant; the time you are due to commence Clomid depends on the dose of the drug used, for example if I take 1 shot of 250mg of sustanon I reach Clomid start time in 9 days if I take 1 shot of 500mg of sustanon it’s in fact closer to day 15!

So if we assume the average user is taking 2 shots of 250mg a week it also builds up over a period of time to reach peak levels so very short cycles of sustanon (less than 3 weeks and not a likely scenario) will have a shorter period to wait post cycle (as seen in the 1 week 1 shot example above) in reality this entire section assumes that all the longer esters will be used in cycles of greater than three weeks.

So if I just take a 500mg of sustanon taken 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday for more than 3 weeks as an example we can see the following: clomid should be started on day 19 or 20 after the last shot.

If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence.

Now I’m not going to take it any further than that dose with sustanon as to be honest it’s by far the worst for me to calculate as it’s comprised of 4 different esters (halflives) testosterone isocaproate 60mg, testosterone decanoate 100mg, testosterone propionate 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate 60mg. So from this point on I’m going to talk about a single ester test, which actually proves the point much better anyhow, I will list clomid treatment for a number of different compounds at the end of this document.

So on to my old friend and favourite test; Testosterone entantate (although if you’re Iranian you might want to add a few more letters to that ester name): now it’s a single ester for which my poor brain is thankful and it has a halflife of approximately 7 days.

So if 500mg of entantate is taken per week 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday clomid should be started on day 20 or 21 after the last shot and not the usually recommended 14 days!

If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence.

Starting to see how it’s dose dependant? Starting to wonder why no one has ever mentioned it before? I know I am!

So if we crank it up to a higher dose will this pattern continue? - lets try as an example 1000mg a week taken as 500mg Monday and 500mg Thursday. The result?…. A whopping 27 - 28 days before clomid treatment, ever done 1g of test entantate a week and felt that you didn’t fully recover after PCT well following the direction on many boards you would have started your PCT 14 days post cycle and finished at day 35 in reality you were finishing just one week after you should have started hence you didn’t fully recover!

Now we all know some people go mega doses so just for a laugh I’m going to do it as 250mg ED or 1750mg a week: 32-33 days before clomid treatment over one month! So many of these people will be back on their next cycle without even having recovered from the previous one!

Now the clomid dose suggested by most is: 300mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7-10 days; followed by 50mg for 7-10 days. First thing I’m going to say is that I’m not convinced that a 300mg day 1 dosage is essential but it won’t do any harm so I leave that choice up to you. Now to be honest for those in their mid 30s and older I believe that a longer duration is a better method of recovery.

So I suggest the following dosage regime:

Age < 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days.

Age > 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 14 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days.

The one for older men will to many of you appear excessive and too long, but at least 50% of the older men that I talk to feel they don’t fully recover with normal clomid treatment and running it slightly longer has appeared to cure the problem for them.

If taking more than 1 pill per day there is not need to split up doses during the day as it has a halflife of about 4 days.

So lets look at a range of products and give you some times to start clomid, most of the short life oral steroids are not effected enough by this to warrant calculating dose dependant changes as it would be a difference in hours and the best rule of thumb with them is start clomid the day after you finish:

Orals
Anadrol / A-50s 8 hours (next day)
Anavar 8 hours (next day)
Dianabol 8 hours (next day)
Winstrol 10 hours (next day)

Injectibles
Deca 400mg[1] a week taken split into two shots 24-25 days
EQ 400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days
Trenbolone
37.5mg per day 3-4 days
75mg per day 5-6 days
Primobolan
400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days
Sustanon[2]
500mg a week taken split into two shots 19-20 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days
Test Cypionate 8
500mg a week taken split into two shots 23-24 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 27-28 days
1000mg a week taken split into two shots 31-32 days
Test Enanthate
500mg a week taken split into two shots 20-21 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days
1000mg a week taken split into two shots 27 - 28 days
Test Propionate
50mg ED 4-5 days
100mg ED 6-7 days
200mg ED 8-9 days
Test Suspension 8 hours (next day as the orals are)


[1] only one dose example given here as it’s rare for any other dose to be used and if it is it tends to not be largely different - normally no more than 100mg one way or the other - you could add or subtract 1 or 2 days from PCT start date if you opt for a slightly different dose.

[2] Damn horrid hard to calculate from 4 ester nonsense!

* please note all calculations were made using http://powerboard.rockarfett.com/roidcalc/index.html but using the halflives listed in this book and not necessarily the ones they provide. The main reason for this was ease of calculations, the ‘roidcalc’ take into consideration things such as ester weight – 250mg of a steroid which has an ester attached is not 250mg of steroid as some of that weight is the ester it’s self.

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Biker


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gym rat

brilliant post biker mate, take my hat off to ya mate

Biker

I spent ages thinking and working that out a couple of years ago, personally I can't see any real flaws in the logic of it.

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bigden

very good post i was looking for something like this, really explains it all clearly and in detail

Kezz

good post, i know i should have waited 21 days after my last enth but i did it on 14, so if i take clomid for an extra week will all be ok?

hackskii

Good to see you back buddy...

Biker, I thought you were going to change your start times?

Also, I find clomid and nolva work better together than any one by itself.

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Scott


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sparky

Great post Biker thanks for posting, very informative.

Biker

yes mate that's what I would do

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Biker

Hi honey :love:

I think the start times are good mate, they're much later than 90% of people are recommending.

I would say that taking 1 nolva ED from your last shot until the end of PCT is a very good idea, just because it's more efficient at blocking oestrogen than clomid. What I don't like is when people use only nolva.

The article above was more written as a when and how much clomid to use, nolva is very important for post cycle oestrogen control.

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hackskii

Oh yah, gotcha dude.
I am starting even later than you
I just see androgen supression exerts negative feedback even in the light of SERM's or even AI's.
Starting too early, one could miss PCT depending on how long and how much (gear) was used.

Good to see you back darling:love:
I do miss you Biker.

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Scott


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Biker

totally agree, starting PCT too early is a big problem and one that most people make, I'm pretty sure I have the start times right, but longer PCT is required for some.

How long you've been on has some relevance also, people that have been on for 6 months + will require much longer PCT and possibly require it more than once. I know once I eventually came off I thought I was never going to recover! took a very long time for my test levels to get back to acceptable (over 2 years).

That's why so many people end up using for life, I know of several guys that still use low doses of steroids even although they don't train any more! Worrying but true! They end up using 250mg of test every other week rather than going through months of feeling like sh1t!

Interestingly enough I helped out a guy from the US who had never used steroids but his fertility and test levels where almost non existent. To cut a long story short, I suggested running what was basically clomid PCT for him and for the first time in years his test levels are at the low end of normal and his fertility test is almost normal.

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hackskii

Absolutly Biker, they use clomid for a stimulation test to test out pituitary output for diagnosing primary or secondary hypogonadism.

But what is a trip is the leydig cells become less functional when a guy gets older, so pituitary output raises even in the light of lower testosterone levels.
Mens estrogen tends to elivate when older too so that guy might have even had an aromatase issue.

I think it is 146% elivation in testosterone levels with the clomid stimulation test.


Well, I am doing my recovery right now and I really dont want to use any more.
I am not looking fwd to the possibility of low test levels like you.
I do feel the rate limiting steps in recovery is the testicles.

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Scott


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rightyho

If it's of any help to help you get an indicator of recovery, I'm off to London for a testosterone count mid November and another a couple of months later.

The testosterone test will commence 18 days after cessation of a HCG, aromasin, nolvadex, clomid PCT - the doctor telling me to wait until clomid (which is long-acting) has reduced its half life 3 times.

The course I stopped was a pre-comp one with mostly tren and a little masteron and it shut me down far far more than any other cycle I've ever done before - if drive etc are anything to go by.

These results will show the rate of recovery, in me at least. I fully expect testosterone levels from test one to be very low but hope they'll climb a point or two or three in the following couple of months.

Kezz

tren is a killer, i was using tren prop and masteron and its taking ages to recover.... sex drive whats that??!!

hackskii

I used to hate just deca, now I hate tren too, that stuff is massivly supressive.

OK righty, so you talked to your doc about clomid?
He must know something about it as he does not want the clomid to skew the test results for SHBG, estrogen, and LH.
Smart man, bet he can help you.
You can run some of the stuff by him that was suggested and see how he responds.
But if your results are good he will probably ask you what you did.
If he is smart he will be asking you alot of questions.
Your condition after a cycle is called Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH), it is so common you dont even know.
Most guys just go back on.

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Scott


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