Proviron over clomid. - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

winger · 22-03-2004, 01:50 AM

I copied and pasted this. Short version.

The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed -- even if it worked well, which it doesn't. Forget Clomid. For more effective methods of keeping excess estrogen in check, read on.

When it comes to anti-estrogens, the best bet may be not in occupying the receptor sites, as does Clomid, but to compete with the testosterone/estrogen balance. At one time, Proviron was deemed a valid choice as an anti-estrogen agent until some of the sophomoric steroid students argued that it didn't have any direct anti-estrogenic properties. True, but it still looks as if it's the best choice if you feel the need to guard against estrogen build up. It does so because DHT acts as a gyno antagonist. (Yet another thing that has been oddly overlooked.) Even when DHT is applied topically it's been shown to reduce gyno in cases where the gyno hadn't been a chronic condition.

Beyond the direct effect of DHT, Proviron has distinct benefits, the first being that as a derivative of DHT it isn't capable of forming estrogen, yet it has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than does testosterone. That means administering it with another aromatizable compound will prevent estrogen build up due to the fact that DHT binds to the aromatase enzyme so strongly. There's also been some suggestion that Proviron may downgrade the actual estrogen receptor, thereby making it twice as effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels. And because DHT has such a high affinity for SHBG it leaves more free testosterone to impart its anabolic effects.

It makes sense that the use of Proviron is a more practical and rational method of dealing with the possibility of excess estrogen than the aforementioned method of attempting to add a weaker estrogen in the hopes that it will prevent aromatization.

William Llewellyn touches upon this in Anabolics 2000. He says...

"(Proviron) is in contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks estrogen's ability to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues." (such as breast tissue)

In other words, the World Anabolic Reference was right when it stated; "Proviron cures the problem of aromatization at the root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms."

Proviron in moderate doses has been shown to be remarkably safe and free of side effects in most men. If you must use an anti-estrogen, Proviron is the way go.

miami797 · 22-03-2004, 02:36 AM

ive been trying to tell people that for a while now, i just never could do it as elegantly as that...thanks for that and i hope alot people take this to mind next time...i had a minor chat with hacksii about it but that was more about DHT causing hair loss......so i hope you read this hack

yes clomid is much cheaper, but at the rate of money we all spend on gear anyway whats a few extra $ (or £ for you brits)???

**hackskii** · 22-03-2004, 03:18 AM

I dont think I will use the proviron unless I need it for labido reasons. I think I am doing pretty good at this point and will start my Clomid/nolvadex in 2 days. But I still feel like my pumps are bigger than normal. I might have to wait a few more days to start my pct. I dont want the proviron in any way slowing my hpta recovery.

miami797 · 22-03-2004, 03:29 AM

youre smart enough to know whats best for you...you have a PM hack

damagedgoods · 23-03-2004, 08:52 AM

I a using proviron at the moement - reason being is that I don;t normaly run anti e's as I have yet to get problems from gyno. However I read some info on SHBG and how proviron 'frees' testosterone so u get more bang for the buck....

miami797 · 23-03-2004, 09:33 AM

PCT or anti-e's whatever you want to call them....their are more reasons for using these then just gyno

**Aftershock** · 02-05-2004, 04:11 PM

Guys I was told recently that prov and abombs are the only aas that have a proven link with liver tumors (with prolonged high usage obviously)

does anyone know if there is any truth in this?

**hackskii** · 02-05-2004, 04:20 PM

Anadrol, yes proviron, no.
That is what I heard.

Greyphantom · 04-05-2004, 04:35 PM

Also agree with the fact that prov and nolva are better for anti e during the cycle but proviron isnt a pct aas... it doesnt help recovery but clomid will... so during the cycle prov over clomid and pct clomid over prov...

Biker · 04-05-2004, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyphantom

Also agree with the fact that prov and nolva are better for anti e during the cycle but proviron isnt a pct aas... it doesnt help recovery but clomid will... so during the cycle prov over clomid and pct clomid over prov...

agreed

**hackskii** · 04-05-2004, 06:28 PM

I do know a HRT Dr. that recomends nolvadex over Clomid for PCT.
I have read an article by Bill Phillips (im pretty sure) and he recomends Nolvadex over Clomid for PCT as well.
But for me I am going to use both

Better safe than sorry.

Greyphantom · 04-05-2004, 06:35 PM

William Llewellyn also argues in favour of nolva over clomid pct... as a matter of fact so do I... I use only nolva pct now... works great for me...

**hackskii** · 04-05-2004, 06:37 PM

That is the author. That guy has great articles. Not many floating around but that guy is a smart cookie.

08-05-2004, 02:08 PM

Whats the dosage though of proviron?

**hackskii** · 08-05-2004, 03:22 PM

proviron is 25 mgs
When I felt a little lump/pimple which kindof hurt, I took 1 proviron and 1 nolvadex and in 3 days lump was toast.
But, Dont know if it is concidence but I got some acne and I suspect it was from the proviron as it was on my face and I dont get acne. I mean not just an acne but the kind that are lumps not zits. Got like 2 or 3 on my face some on my back and on my shoulder. I am not a big fan of proviron but I am going to take a tab every other day probably all during my next cycle. Well not unless I get massive acne then I am not going to do that

Dose, I read that guys take from 25 to 150 mgs a day, but some guys take that off cycle to mantain that hard look and it does tend to not let you hold water. Me, I dont do well with alot of androgens floating around in my system and it is not cheap to use either.

22-03-2004, 01:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
winger UK-Muscle Male Animal Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 10,260 Blog Entries: 1	Proviron over clomid. I copied and pasted this. Short version. The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed -- even if it worked well, which it doesn't. Forget Clomid. For more effective methods of keeping excess estrogen in check, read on. When it comes to anti-estrogens, the best bet may be not in occupying the receptor sites, as does Clomid, but to compete with the testosterone/estrogen balance. At one time, Proviron was deemed a valid choice as an anti-estrogen agent until some of the sophomoric steroid students argued that it didn't have any direct anti-estrogenic properties. True, but it still looks as if it's the best choice if you feel the need to guard against estrogen build up. It does so because DHT acts as a gyno antagonist. (Yet another thing that has been oddly overlooked.) Even when DHT is applied topically it's been shown to reduce gyno in cases where the gyno hadn't been a chronic condition. Beyond the direct effect of DHT, Proviron has distinct benefits, the first being that as a derivative of DHT it isn't capable of forming estrogen, yet it has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than does testosterone. That means administering it with another aromatizable compound will prevent estrogen build up due to the fact that DHT binds to the aromatase enzyme so strongly. There's also been some suggestion that Proviron may downgrade the actual estrogen receptor, thereby making it twice as effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels. And because DHT has such a high affinity for SHBG it leaves more free testosterone to impart its anabolic effects. It makes sense that the use of Proviron is a more practical and rational method of dealing with the possibility of excess estrogen than the aforementioned method of attempting to add a weaker estrogen in the hopes that it will prevent aromatization. William Llewellyn touches upon this in Anabolics 2000. He says... "(Proviron) is in contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks estrogen's ability to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues." (such as breast tissue) In other words, the World Anabolic Reference was right when it stated; "Proviron cures the problem of aromatization at the root while Nolvadex simply cures the symptoms." Proviron in moderate doses has been shown to be remarkably safe and free of side effects in most men. If you must use an anti-estrogen, Proviron is the way go. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

22-03-2004, 02:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
miami797 Feeling Slutty Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,440	ive been trying to tell people that for a while now, i just never could do it as elegantly as that...thanks for that and i hope alot people take this to mind next time...i had a minor chat with hacksii about it but that was more about DHT causing hair loss......so i hope you read this hack yes clomid is much cheaper, but at the rate of money we all spend on gear anyway whats a few extra $ (or £ for you brits)??? __________________ one in the pink. two in the stink.

22-03-2004, 03:18 AM	#3 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	I dont think I will use the proviron unless I need it for labido reasons. I think I am doing pretty good at this point and will start my Clomid/nolvadex in 2 days. But I still feel like my pumps are bigger than normal. I might have to wait a few more days to start my pct. I dont want the proviron in any way slowing my hpta recovery. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

22-03-2004, 03:29 AM	#4 (permalink)
miami797 Feeling Slutty Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,440	youre smart enough to know whats best for you...you have a PM hack __________________ one in the pink. two in the stink.

23-03-2004, 09:33 AM	#6 (permalink)
miami797 Feeling Slutty Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,440	PCT or anti-e's whatever you want to call them....their are more reasons for using these then just gyno __________________ one in the pink. two in the stink.

23-03-2004, 08:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
damagedgoods Looking Freaky Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wisbech Posts: 763	I a using proviron at the moement - reason being is that I don;t normaly run anti e's as I have yet to get problems from gyno. However I read some info on SHBG and how proviron 'frees' testosterone so u get more bang for the buck....

02-05-2004, 04:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
Aftershock UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,932	Guys I was told recently that prov and abombs are the only aas that have a proven link with liver tumors (with prolonged high usage obviously) does anyone know if there is any truth in this? __________________ "You are what you eat you can't possibly be anything else" or put another way "eat sht look like sht!!" Aftershock

02-05-2004, 04:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	Anadrol, yes proviron, no. That is what I heard. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

04-05-2004, 04:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
Greyphantom Getting HUGE! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,782	Also agree with the fact that prov and nolva are better for anti e during the cycle but proviron isnt a pct aas... it doesnt help recovery but clomid will... so during the cycle prov over clomid and pct clomid over prov... __________________ Greyphantom The Ghost who Grows!!!

04-05-2004, 06:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	I do know a HRT Dr. that recomends nolvadex over Clomid for PCT. I have read an article by Bill Phillips (im pretty sure) and he recomends Nolvadex over Clomid for PCT as well. But for me I am going to use both Better safe than sorry. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

04-05-2004, 06:35 PM	#12 (permalink)
Greyphantom Getting HUGE! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,782	William Llewellyn also argues in favour of nolva over clomid pct... as a matter of fact so do I... I use only nolva pct now... works great for me... __________________ Greyphantom The Ghost who Grows!!!

04-05-2004, 06:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	That is the author. That guy has great articles. Not many floating around but that guy is a smart cookie. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-05-2004, 02:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
Insanity Guest Posts: n/a	Whats the dosage though of proviron?

08-05-2004, 03:22 PM	#15 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	proviron is 25 mgs When I felt a little lump/pimple which kindof hurt, I took 1 proviron and 1 nolvadex and in 3 days lump was toast. But, Dont know if it is concidence but I got some acne and I suspect it was from the proviron as it was on my face and I dont get acne. I mean not just an acne but the kind that are lumps not zits. Got like 2 or 3 on my face some on my back and on my shoulder. I am not a big fan of proviron but I am going to take a tab every other day probably all during my next cycle. Well not unless I get massive acne then I am not going to do that Dose, I read that guys take from 25 to 150 mgs a day, but some guys take that off cycle to mantain that hard look and it does tend to not let you hold water. Me, I dont do well with alot of androgens floating around in my system and it is not cheap to use either. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by hackskii; 08-05-2004 at 03:24 PM.