Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

the_gre8t_1ne · 09-05-2005, 12:01 PM

This was an interesting post i found.

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

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Posted by Nandi12 on cuttingedgemuscle

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

Carnivore · 09-05-2005, 12:41 PM

bump for hackskii, he loves everything testicular

the_gre8t_1ne · 09-05-2005, 01:00 PM

Chico · 09-05-2005, 03:39 PM

looks interesting but it would be nice if it was in English. I can barely understand what its going on about. :(

the_gre8t_1ne · 09-05-2005, 04:12 PM

HCG increases HPTA axis/testosterone production short-term (i.e. post cycle), but it can lead to reduced natural test production long term (i.e. your nads don't work as effectively).

studies seem to suggest that using Tamoxifen/Nolvadex alongside HCG prevents the unwanted negative side effects of HCG usage.

Stu · 09-05-2005, 04:47 PM

Nice find mate

Not many people are aware of Leydig Cell Desensitization with hCg. Thats why its a good idea to only shoot for 500uis per day.

**hackskii** · 10-05-2005, 01:59 AM

Oh thanks for that.
I cant use HCG without an anti-E.

But the guy does not say if the Leydig Cell Desensitization was permanent.
Nor does he say anything about the amounts having a action on Leydig Cell Desensitization.
HCG is dose dependant and too much can damage the leydig cells of the testes.
Id day if you have some serious atrophy, you have pretty much no choice.
I still prefer using small amounts during the cycle like at about 500IU
They were using 10 times this at first then 3 times for months.

Interesting article.

Bazzamax · 11-05-2005, 09:27 PM

Hi Scott,
how much nolva would you take along with your hcg? and would you be taking 500ius of hcg every other day ?
All the best mate.
Bazza

**hackskii** · 11-05-2005, 10:29 PM

I have used HCG during cycle with no anti-E's with no problem @ 500 IU every few days then every couple to every day at the end of the cycle to keep testicular atrophy at bay during the cycle.

I have used HCG after I did PCT (because I didnt recover) and used clomid @ 50 mg starting day 4 for 21 days and 1000 IU for 10 days.
That worked well too.

I would not recomend using the HCG post cycle without an ani-estrogen like clomid or nolva. You will get gyno with that.

09-05-2005, 12:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
the_gre8t_1ne Your Friendly neighbourhood pusha! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Ghetto (West, London) Posts: 4,065	Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization This was an interesting post i found. Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Nandi12 on cuttingedgemuscle Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex. The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization. Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9 Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men. Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW. Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect. Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14 Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG. Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R. Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina. The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization. __________________ Know your role and shut your mouth! or I'll layeth the SMACK DOWN on your Candy ASS!! If you smelalalalalalooouuuu To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. the gre8t 1ne.......is cooking!? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. also find me at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

09-05-2005, 01:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
the_gre8t_1ne Your Friendly neighbourhood pusha! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Ghetto (West, London) Posts: 4,065	LOL __________________ Know your role and shut your mouth! or I'll layeth the SMACK DOWN on your Candy ASS!! If you smelalalalalalooouuuu To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. the gre8t 1ne.......is cooking!? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. also find me at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

09-05-2005, 04:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
the_gre8t_1ne Your Friendly neighbourhood pusha! Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Ghetto (West, London) Posts: 4,065	HCG increases HPTA axis/testosterone production short-term (i.e. post cycle), but it can lead to reduced natural test production long term (i.e. your nads don't work as effectively). studies seem to suggest that using Tamoxifen/Nolvadex alongside HCG prevents the unwanted negative side effects of HCG usage. __________________ Know your role and shut your mouth! or I'll layeth the SMACK DOWN on your Candy ASS!! If you smelalalalalalooouuuu To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. the gre8t 1ne.......is cooking!? To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. also find me at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

09-05-2005, 04:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
Stu original nutter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: No fixed abode Posts: 743	Nice find mate Not many people are aware of Leydig Cell Desensitization with hCg. Thats why its a good idea to only shoot for 500uis per day. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-05-2005, 01:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,654	Oh thanks for that. I cant use HCG without an anti-E. But the guy does not say if the Leydig Cell Desensitization was permanent. Nor does he say anything about the amounts having a action on Leydig Cell Desensitization. HCG is dose dependant and too much can damage the leydig cells of the testes. Id day if you have some serious atrophy, you have pretty much no choice. I still prefer using small amounts during the cycle like at about 500IU They were using 10 times this at first then 3 times for months. Interesting article. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

09-05-2005, 12:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Carnivore Somewhere between depressed and suicidal Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: location, location Posts: 1,077	bump for hackskii, he loves everything testicular

09-05-2005, 03:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Chico Newbie Trainer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 31	looks interesting but it would be nice if it was in English. I can barely understand what its going on about. :(

11-05-2005, 09:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
Bazzamax Gym Addict Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: near Glasgow Posts: 232	Hi Scott, how much nolva would you take along with your hcg? and would you be taking 500ius of hcg every other day ? All the best mate. Bazza

11-05-2005, 10:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,654	I have used HCG during cycle with no anti-E's with no problem @ 500 IU every few days then every couple to every day at the end of the cycle to keep testicular atrophy at bay during the cycle. I have used HCG after I did PCT (because I didnt recover) and used clomid @ 50 mg starting day 4 for 21 days and 1000 IU for 10 days. That worked well too. I would not recomend using the HCG post cycle without an ani-estrogen like clomid or nolva. You will get gyno with that. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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