Biker

this is going to go back and forward so it's pointless go away and have a good read about esters and how they release and have a good think about it mate.

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Biker

BTW mate I'm not meaning to be rude when I tell you to go and read about it, I just mean read about it and think, I'm not having a go at you as you're of the few people I've ever given reputation points to (I don't hand them out often!)

I've had some very experienced people agree with my theories on this, including Bigfella from MT.

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Predator

Hey Hackskii,

I can't really comment on the depot just yet. It's only been a couple of weeks.
As soon as I'm really in to it, I will get back to you. ;)

Thanks for all the advice and ideas guys.
I think I will start the PCT 12hrs after the last injection, and then simply run for as long as I have to. I quite like the idea of having a spike once a week during PCT.
That should do it.

Predator

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hackskii

The first start day of my PCT I hit the clomid @ 300
And I also hit the nolva at 60
So I have noticed one time I did the 300 clomid my balls ached.
I felt that this was a good thing.
So if I dont wait long enough for the exogenious test levels to drop to base levels that 300 mg of clomid wont kick me in the balls like if I was ready for it.
For me starting at the right time is critical.
For me starting 2 weeks out is way to early.
I might be alone or one of the few but I do know my body better than anyones and it could be age related, higher percentage of body fat, metabolism, genetics, low natural test levels, whatever.
But the fact that I do know my body and how it responds is a good thing to know.
All of us should know our bodies the way that I do.

I keep close tabs on my body and I want to know everything that things do to me whether in a positive way or in a negative way.

What works for me does not necessarly work for all.
So if Big does his PCT in 2 weeks and works then fine.
If Hackskii does his PCT after 4 weeks and works then fine too.

Notice the third person talking

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big

Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one

You may well have experienced people agree with the half-life theory, but active life is recommended by a LOT of experienced people too. In fact, there are even vets on some boards that recommend starting after ONE week for enanthate.

Biker

starting 1 week after enanth would be awful mate.

I'm surprised you don't agree that recovery can't happen until non natural levels are lower than normal natural levels.

I'm lost mate I really thought if you had a think about it you would have seen what I'm saying.

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Biker

Understanding Drug Half-Lives - by William Llewellyn
There are a number of factors that can affect the potency of a particular drug compound. One such factor, and perhaps one of the most important, is the half-life of the agent. In medicine, the term half-life refers to the duration it takes for half of a given drug dosage to break down in the body. It is not half of the total activity time, as this figure always refers to the time it takes to metabolize 50% of what is in still the body. For example, if we inject 100mg a steroid with a half-life of 4 hours, at the four-hour mark we should have only 50mg left as active. After another four hours have passed the drug is still in the body, however another half-life has expired and the total active dosage will be around 25mg. It may take several half-lives before the drug is completely inactive.

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big

Yes - it may take several half-lives before the drug is completely inactive. But it only takes one active life - which is why I go on this.

It's interesting that you quote Bill Llewellyn on this, as if I remember correctly, he (like me) advocates starting PCT after 2 weeks (i.e. the start of week 3). In fact, I don't think he even recommends running anything more than 20mg ED of nolva in the way of anti-e's during this PCT (his logic is to use HCG).

Post-cycle serves to restore natty test AND LH levels. Sure, you might not be able to get natty test recovery until your levels falls (I DO agree with you on this - I don't think we disagree as much as you think on this), but you CAN attempt to help restore LH levels earlier. In fact it's shown that the body will naturally start to restore LH levels after only 2 weeks for enanthate (the active life).

I also agree with you that active life is dose dependant. However, for the vast majority of "normal range" steroid users, the 2 week enanthate active life is a pretty accurate length.

I really think that Hackskii makes a lot of sense when he says that you need to figure out what's right for you. For me it's definitely 2 weeks - I am happy with that both from a theoretical point of view AND from a practical point of view. I am also happy in the knowledge that if I am wrong, it's not the end of the world - I get my levels checked at the end of PCT and run it longer if necessary.

If only there were FDA guidelines as to when to run PCT after a steroid cycle (yeah right!!).

That said, I am going to be running a cycle a la chefx next - and if I like this way of cycling, I will stick to it - which means I'll only be using fast acting esters - so none of this becomes much of a concern any more.

big

If bigfella agrees with 3 weeks for enanthate, how come he recommends two weeks in his article on MT?

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.asp

Clomid and HCG
By Nick and Bigfella - MuscleTalk.co.uk moderators

Steroid	Time after last administration		Length of Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50:	8 - 12 hours		3 weeks
Deca durabolan:	3 weeks		4 weeks
Dianabol:	4 - 8 hours		3 weeks
Equipoise:	17 - 21 days		3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone:	3 days		3 weeks
Primabolan depot:	10 - 14 days		2 weeks
Sustanon:	3 weeks		3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate:	2 weeks		3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron:	2 weeks		3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate:	3 days		3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension:	4 - 8 hours		2-3 weeks
Winstrol	8 - 12 hours		2-3 weeks

Biker

I agree with some of what Bill says but not with some other parts (lol same goes for most of what I've read by most people)

but then if he does say that 2 weeks is all the time required for enanth he is contradicting himself, as clearly while there is still some active substance in the blood you are still within the active life, so you must take that into account you can't avoid it.

He has in past recommend using clomid, I don't know if he has suggested different somewhere else or not?

I believe that so many of the tables of active life/halflife/detection times etc. on the net are crap! someone many years ago made an educated guess or two and the next thing everyone is copying it from site to site, forum to forum and it becomes gospel. Many 'experts' now agree that most of halflives being quoted are 1 - 2 days to long.

It I believe relates a lot more to half life than many believe, it just to me appears logical and works for everyone I have suggested it to (lots of people).

I agree that you can attempt to help restore LH levels earlier no arguement there but you can't recover until the levels are low enough to allow so. Actually for this reason I recommend to people that seek my advice (lol their are some fools out there that do ;) ) use half a nolva and half a clomid pill ED from the day after the last shot until the day clomid commences. But I see that as setting them up ready for PCT proper and blocking any high levels of oestogen which will be floating about at this time.

Now lets hold in mind the average person is doing PCT for 3 weeks max, so if they've lost the first week (or as you say not lost, but done little more than set thereselves up ready to recover) or more there's little hope of fast recovery.

I get a lot of people asking about PCT related problems and it's shocking how many people aren't fully recovering, and they don't realise until they eventually take a long break. The case is that 99% of people are getting blood work done and are back on another cycle as soon as they start to feel ok so in reality they're doing little more than stimulating LH and believing they've recovered.


lol interesting thread ;)

of course as you say it's all irrelevant with shorter cycles with fast acting esters. But also of little relevance if people switch to fast esters for the last 3-4 weeks of longer cycles.

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Biker

I wrote my article much later than that, he agreed with what I said when I emailed it to him for his view, he also said that he really should sit down and re-write that article as it is now out of date.

I could probably find his reply if you like? or you could drop him an email and ask him if you wish.

BTW it's not as clean cut as saying it's 3 weeks of enanth, because it depends on dose, it can be in that range though.


Do you really think I would have mention his name if I hadn't spoken to him on the subject?

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Aftershock

This argument, I mean discussion lol could go on for a decade....

Doesn't it make more sense to switch to a shorter ether at the end of the cycle so we can judge when to start PCT more accurately?

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Aftershock

Biker

yes bro.

A sensible method is to switch to say an oral after your last injection, run it for 3 weeks and then you be pretty sure you're clear.

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Biker

BTW there is one point I should have mentioned and it may be the part you are overlooking.

Do you know how active life is calculated for a drug? It's based on 1 dose, i.e. 1 single injection.

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John

confusing at the beginning, you should see me now .

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