PCT....when? - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

**Jimmy** · 27-12-2004, 08:31 PM

Ok guys, I want to clear up a question thats often asked

There have been many members asking when to start PCT.

Now no-one really knows when a drug will clear as it is different for many people.

I would like biker to add to this thread as he has some good info about the active lives of different steroids depending on the doseage used.

I want to add my little theory on how to make sure we are off, when PCT starts.

Its simple really, if we are using a long ester ie decanoate, its hard to determine when it will be clear....some say 18 days, some say as long as 30 days. So how do we know when its best to start PCT?

I like to switch to a short ester 2/3rds of the way through the cycle, staying on it long enough to make sure the long esters are clear.

A simple example would be like this....

weeks 1-4
500mg sustanon

weeks 1-8
400mg deca

weeks 5-8
500mg test/en

weeks 9-12*
100mg prop EOD
30mg dbol ED

* the prop would end on wed or thur of week 12, whilst the dbol would be continued till the sun

weeks 13-15
PCT

You see that here we have used up all our long esters by week 8, and to save trying to work out when PCT should start we have switched to short esters past the time that the the long ones end.

This is only the way I like to do things but I know many of you dont want the EOD shots. So for those of you that want to use long esters only, I would like to ask biker to explain how we do this.

Bumping biker

**hackskii** · 27-12-2004, 08:55 PM

I like it!
But I still would need some HCG in there

Smart cycle.

winger · 28-12-2004, 02:45 AM

What if PCT is all bullsh1t? How do you know that pct works?

Why not do a shorter cycle that dosn't require pct?
Got ya.;)

**Jimmy** · 01-01-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winger

What if PCT is all bullsh1t? How do you know that pct works?

Why not do a shorter cycle that dosn't require pct?
Got ya.;)

Quite right winger......who knows if pct does us any good?

The point is how is (I feel) the best way to finnish a cycle, knowing that you are deffinately clean

**big** · 01-01-2005, 06:05 PM

Sure, PCT might not work, but why take the chance? There have been studies done on long-term shut-down former steroid users who's natural test levels were restored to normal with PCT, so it's a good bet that it does work.

I would always go by the active life of the substance and run PCT the following times from the last administration of the drug:

Anadrol/Anapolan: 12 hours
Deca: 21 days
Dbol: 12 hours
EQ: 21 days
Fina: 3 days
Primo depot: 14 days
Sustanon: 18 days
Test Cyp: 18 days
Test Enan: 14 days
Test Prop: 3 days
Winstrol: 12 hours

I know a lot of you guys are saying leave a lot longer than this, and I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but you guys leaving longer than the active lives are often the guys who are admitting to be hard recoverers. Hmmm go figure ;)

**Jimmy** · 01-01-2005, 06:35 PM

Exactly my point big

we dont really know when these long esters properly clear for sure.

the above post is a sure method of getting over the guess work

Lets look at the flip side of your reasoning.........maybe starting PCT after the recomendations made in the above list is too late.......but what if it is too early? We then may not be clean long enough and start again too soon.

thanks for the chart

still bumping biker for his thoughts

**hackskii** · 01-01-2005, 07:05 PM

Starting your PCT is also dose dependent too.
Lets say you are doing a gram a week.
This will surely hang around in the body longer than lets say 250mgs a week right?
Bump for BIG ;)

**Jimmy** · 01-01-2005, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackskii

Starting your PCT is also dose dependent too.
Lets say you are doing a gram a week.
This will surely hang around in the body longer than lets say 250mgs a week right?

thats why i'm waiting for biker to add some, it was him that first mentioned dose related clearance times...

....come on biker

Biker · 01-01-2005, 07:57 PM

I've posted this before so most will have read it:

PCT

Clomid (clomiphene Citrate)

What is it?

Classification: Synthetic oestrogen/hpta stimulator (strong gonadotropin stimulator/mild anti-oestrogen)

Clomid is clinically administered to assist women with ovulation. It's used by bodybuilders to assist with the re-start of natural testosterone production post anabolic steroid cycles. Clomid increases activity in the hypothalamus-pituary-gonadol axis by stinulating the release of more gondotropin from the pituary gland this causes a higher level of Luteinizin hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) which signals the testes leydig cells which then in turn manufature more testosterone and sperm. Another major factor is it's anti-oestrogen ability (similar to but weaker than nolva) this is an important time for blocking oestrogen from the receptors in the body as oestogen is often rampant post cycle.

How do I use it?

I have for a while now believed that the Clomid treatment recommended on many websites and books is in fact wrong and starts of too soon to be fully effective - this is backed up by speaking to several people that have had recovery problems but have found that a second run of clomid returns them to normal.

I don’t believe there’s any point in commencing clomid treatment until your blood levels of active steroid are 10mg or less every day (normal and natural average is about 7 or 8mg/day). Taken that most will agree that natural test production can not restart while non natural test in your blood exceeds the amount manufactured by your natural test production so you must wait until your androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals to your test production. Some people appear to believe that taking clomid during a cycle stops their test production from shutting down

Now the figures I use throughout this document can be argued perhaps someone else believes the halflife of said compound is a day or two different from what I’ve based my calculations on, and if that’s the case the day for starting clomid treatment may be different by a day or so.

Now many sites will tell you 21 days post sustanon cycle before commencing clomid what no one ever mentions is that it's dose dependant; the time you are due to commence Clomid depends on the dose of the drug used, for example if I take 1 shot of 250mg of sustanon I reach Clomid start time in 9 days if I take 1 shot of 500mg of sustanon it’s in fact closer to day 15!

So if we assume the average user is taking 2 shots of 250mg a week it also builds up over a period of time to reach peak levels so very short cycles of sustanon (less than 3 weeks and not a likely scenario) will have a shorter period to wait post cycle (as seen in the 1 week 1 shot example above) in reality this entire section assumes that all the longer esters will be used in cycles of greater than three weeks.

So if I just take a 500mg of sustanon taken 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday for more than 3 weeks as an example we can see the following: clomid should be started on day 19 or 20 after the last shot.

If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence.

Now I’m not going to take it any further than that dose with sustanon as to be honest it’s by far the worst for me to calculate as it’s comprised of 4 different esters (halflives) testosterone isocaproate 60mg, testosterone decanoate 100mg, testosterone propionate 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate 60mg. So from this point on I’m going to talk about a single ester test, which actually proves the point much better anyhow, I will list clomid treatment for a number of different compounds at the end of this document.

So on to my old friend and favourite test; Testosterone entantate (although if you’re Iranian you might want to add a few more letters to that ester name): now it’s a single ester for which my poor brain is thankful and it has a halflife of approximately 7 days.

So if 500mg of entantate is taken per week 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday clomid should be started on day 20 or 21 after the last shot and not the usually recommended 14 days!

If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence.

Starting to see how it’s dose dependant? Starting to wonder why no one has ever mentioned it before? I know I am!

So if we crank it up to a higher dose will this pattern continue? - lets try as an example 1000mg a week taken as 500mg Monday and 500mg Thursday. The result?…. A whopping 27 - 28 days before clomid treatment, ever done 1g of test entantate a week and felt that you didn’t fully recover after PCT well following the direction on many boards you would have started your PCT 14 days post cycle and finished at day 35 in reality you were finishing just one week after you should have started hence you didn’t fully recover!

Now we all know some people go mega doses so just for a laugh I’m going to do it as 250mg ED or 1750mg a week: 32-33 days before clomid treatment over one month! So many of these people will be back on their next cycle without even having recovered from the previous one!

Now the clomid dose suggested by most is: 300mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7-10 days; followed by 50mg for 7-10 days. First thing I’m going to say is that I’m not convinced that a 300mg day 1 dosage is essential but it won’t do any harm so I leave that choice up to you. Now to be honest for those in their mid 30s and older I believe that a longer duration is a better method of recovery.

So I suggest the following dosage regime:

Age < 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days.

Age > 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 14 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days.

The one for older men will to many of you appear excessive and too long, but at least 50% of the older men that I talk to feel they don’t fully recover with normal clomid treatment and running it slightly longer has appeared to cure the problem for them.

If taking more than 1 pill per day there is not need to split up doses during the day as it has a halflife of about 4 days.

So lets look at a range of products and give you some times to start clomid, most of the short life oral steroids are not effected enough by this to warrant calculating dose dependant changes as it would be a difference in hours and the best rule of thumb with them is start clomid the day after you finish:

Orals
Anadrol / A-50s 8 hours (next day)
Anavar 8 hours (next day)
Dianabol 8 hours (next day)
Winstrol 10 hours (next day)

Injectibles
Deca 400mg[1] a week taken split into two shots 24-25 days
EQ 400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days
Trenbolone
37.5mg per day 3-4 days
75mg per day 5-6 days
Primobolan
400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days
Sustanon[2]
500mg a week taken split into two shots 19-20 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days
Test Cypionate 8
500mg a week taken split into two shots 23-24 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 27-28 days
1000mg a week taken split into two shots 31-32 days
Test Enanthate
500mg a week taken split into two shots 20-21 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days
1000mg a week taken split into two shots 27 - 28 days
Test Propionate
50mg ED 4-5 days
100mg ED 6-7 days
200mg ED 8-9 days
Test Suspension 8 hours (next day as the orals are)

[1] only one dose example given here as it’s rare for any other dose to be used and if it is it tends to not be largely different - normally no more than 100mg one way or the other - you could add or subtract 1 or 2 days from PCT start date if you opt for a slightly different dose.

[2] Damn horrid hard to calculate from 4 ester nonsense!

* please note all calculations were made using http://powerboard.rockarfett.com/roidcalc/index.html but using the halflives listed in this book and not necessarily the ones they provide. The main reason for this was ease of calculations, the ‘roidcalc’ take into consideration things such as ester weight – 250mg of a steroid which has an ester attached is not 250mg of steroid as some of that weight is the ester it’s self.

**Jimmy** · 01-01-2005, 08:00 PM

cheers leprechan

Biker · 01-01-2005, 08:05 PM

honestly I would be inclined towards taking dbol (or another fast acting oral) from the day after your last shot until the day before PCT which is similar to Jimmy's idea but avoids the extra shots. Although a Mon/Wed/Fri approach with test prop is also fine.

Good cycle layout Jimmy but I feel the switch from sust to enanth is unecessary.

of course the problem (if it is a problem!) is the overlap when switching from the long ester (which is still active in your body) to the faster ester. if you were taking a dose which gave 500mg of active test a week and you switch to test prop you will peak to a higher blood level for 2 weeks as the long ester is still floating about and the new ester reaches peak level quickly. Due to this often people will have stopped gaining from their cycle and then start to gain again in the last couple of weeks before PCT.

**Jimmy** · 01-01-2005, 08:15 PM

yes biker

sometimes with clients on long cycles I use dbol, increasing the dose every week or so

a good example was with firemansam from muscleweb

his cycle was a simple test/en and dbol stack

the test was injected every 5 days (its peak time IMO)

so when we discontinued the test, the dose of dbol increased every 5 days as the previouse test shots natrually tapered out

**Jimmy** · 01-01-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biker

Good cycle layout Jimmy but I feel the switch from sust to enanth is unecessary.

Point taken....its an old habbit I have changing esters in long cycles....this cycle maybe is too short for that

Biker · 01-01-2005, 08:24 PM

well I don't see the sense in it even if the cycle is longer... upping the dose yes taking the same compound with a different ester, pointless, TEST is TEST.

unless of course you're switching to a much shorter ester as mentioned above.

Biker · 01-01-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy

so when we discontinued the test, the dose of dbol increased every 5 days as the previouse test shots natrually tapered out

that's the way!

27-12-2004, 08:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jimmy UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Forest gym crawley Posts: 4,361	PCT....when? Ok guys, I want to clear up a question thats often asked There have been many members asking when to start PCT. Now no-one really knows when a drug will clear as it is different for many people. I would like biker to add to this thread as he has some good info about the active lives of different steroids depending on the doseage used. I want to add my little theory on how to make sure we are off, when PCT starts. Its simple really, if we are using a long ester ie decanoate, its hard to determine when it will be clear....some say 18 days, some say as long as 30 days. So how do we know when its best to start PCT? I like to switch to a short ester 2/3rds of the way through the cycle, staying on it long enough to make sure the long esters are clear. A simple example would be like this.... weeks 1-4 500mg sustanon weeks 1-8 400mg deca weeks 5-8 500mg test/en weeks 9-12* 100mg prop EOD 30mg dbol ED * the prop would end on wed or thur of week 12, whilst the dbol would be continued till the sun weeks 13-15 PCT You see that here we have used up all our long esters by week 8, and to save trying to work out when PCT should start we have switched to short esters past the time that the the long ones end. This is only the way I like to do things but I know many of you dont want the EOD shots. So for those of you that want to use long esters only, I would like to ask biker to explain how we do this. Bumping biker __________________ *To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.* 'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

27-12-2004, 08:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	I like it! But I still would need some HCG in there Smart cycle. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

28-12-2004, 02:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
winger UK-Muscle Male Animal Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 10,260 Blog Entries: 1	What if PCT is all bullsh1t? How do you know that pct works? Why not do a shorter cycle that dosn't require pct? Got ya.;) __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01-01-2005, 06:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
Jimmy UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Forest gym crawley Posts: 4,361	Exactly my point big we dont really know when these long esters properly clear for sure. the above post is a sure method of getting over the guess work Lets look at the flip side of your reasoning.........maybe starting PCT after the recomendations made in the above list is too late.......but what if it is too early? We then may not be clean long enough and start again too soon. thanks for the chart still bumping biker for his thoughts __________________ *To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.* 'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

01-01-2005, 07:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,185	Starting your PCT is also dose dependent too. Lets say you are doing a gram a week. This will surely hang around in the body longer than lets say 250mgs a week right? Bump for BIG ;) __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01-01-2005, 06:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
big UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Beer me Posts: 5,281	Sure, PCT might not work, but why take the chance? There have been studies done on long-term shut-down former steroid users who's natural test levels were restored to normal with PCT, so it's a good bet that it does work. I would always go by the active life of the substance and run PCT the following times from the last administration of the drug: Anadrol/Anapolan: 12 hours Deca: 21 days Dbol: 12 hours EQ: 21 days Fina: 3 days Primo depot: 14 days Sustanon: 18 days Test Cyp: 18 days Test Enan: 14 days Test Prop: 3 days Winstrol: 12 hours I know a lot of you guys are saying leave a lot longer than this, and I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but you guys leaving longer than the active lives are often the guys who are admitting to be hard recoverers. Hmmm go figure ;)

01-01-2005, 07:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
Biker Part of the UK-M furniture... gathering dust in the corner :) Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,807	I've posted this before so most will have read it: PCT Clomid (clomiphene Citrate) What is it? Classification: Synthetic oestrogen/hpta stimulator (strong gonadotropin stimulator/mild anti-oestrogen) Clomid is clinically administered to assist women with ovulation. It's used by bodybuilders to assist with the re-start of natural testosterone production post anabolic steroid cycles. Clomid increases activity in the hypothalamus-pituary-gonadol axis by stinulating the release of more gondotropin from the pituary gland this causes a higher level of Luteinizin hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) which signals the testes leydig cells which then in turn manufature more testosterone and sperm. Another major factor is it's anti-oestrogen ability (similar to but weaker than nolva) this is an important time for blocking oestrogen from the receptors in the body as oestogen is often rampant post cycle. How do I use it? I have for a while now believed that the Clomid treatment recommended on many websites and books is in fact wrong and starts of too soon to be fully effective - this is backed up by speaking to several people that have had recovery problems but have found that a second run of clomid returns them to normal. I don’t believe there’s any point in commencing clomid treatment until your blood levels of active steroid are 10mg or less every day (normal and natural average is about 7 or 8mg/day). Taken that most will agree that natural test production can not restart while non natural test in your blood exceeds the amount manufactured by your natural test production so you must wait until your androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals to your test production. Some people appear to believe that taking clomid during a cycle stops their test production from shutting down Now the figures I use throughout this document can be argued perhaps someone else believes the halflife of said compound is a day or two different from what I’ve based my calculations on, and if that’s the case the day for starting clomid treatment may be different by a day or so. Now many sites will tell you 21 days post sustanon cycle before commencing clomid what no one ever mentions is that it's dose dependant; the time you are due to commence Clomid depends on the dose of the drug used, for example if I take 1 shot of 250mg of sustanon I reach Clomid start time in 9 days if I take 1 shot of 500mg of sustanon it’s in fact closer to day 15! So if we assume the average user is taking 2 shots of 250mg a week it also builds up over a period of time to reach peak levels so very short cycles of sustanon (less than 3 weeks and not a likely scenario) will have a shorter period to wait post cycle (as seen in the 1 week 1 shot example above) in reality this entire section assumes that all the longer esters will be used in cycles of greater than three weeks. So if I just take a 500mg of sustanon taken 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday for more than 3 weeks as an example we can see the following: clomid should be started on day 19 or 20 after the last shot. If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence. Now I’m not going to take it any further than that dose with sustanon as to be honest it’s by far the worst for me to calculate as it’s comprised of 4 different esters (halflives) testosterone isocaproate 60mg, testosterone decanoate 100mg, testosterone propionate 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate 60mg. So from this point on I’m going to talk about a single ester test, which actually proves the point much better anyhow, I will list clomid treatment for a number of different compounds at the end of this document. So on to my old friend and favourite test; Testosterone entantate (although if you’re Iranian you might want to add a few more letters to that ester name): now it’s a single ester for which my poor brain is thankful and it has a halflife of approximately 7 days. So if 500mg of entantate is taken per week 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday clomid should be started on day 20 or 21 after the last shot and not the usually recommended 14 days! If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence. Starting to see how it’s dose dependant? Starting to wonder why no one has ever mentioned it before? I know I am! So if we crank it up to a higher dose will this pattern continue? - lets try as an example 1000mg a week taken as 500mg Monday and 500mg Thursday. The result?…. A whopping 27 - 28 days before clomid treatment, ever done 1g of test entantate a week and felt that you didn’t fully recover after PCT well following the direction on many boards you would have started your PCT 14 days post cycle and finished at day 35 in reality you were finishing just one week after you should have started hence you didn’t fully recover! Now we all know some people go mega doses so just for a laugh I’m going to do it as 250mg ED or 1750mg a week: 32-33 days before clomid treatment over one month! So many of these people will be back on their next cycle without even having recovered from the previous one! Now the clomid dose suggested by most is: 300mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7-10 days; followed by 50mg for 7-10 days. First thing I’m going to say is that I’m not convinced that a 300mg day 1 dosage is essential but it won’t do any harm so I leave that choice up to you. Now to be honest for those in their mid 30s and older I believe that a longer duration is a better method of recovery. So I suggest the following dosage regime: Age < 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days. Age > 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 14 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days. The one for older men will to many of you appear excessive and too long, but at least 50% of the older men that I talk to feel they don’t fully recover with normal clomid treatment and running it slightly longer has appeared to cure the problem for them. If taking more than 1 pill per day there is not need to split up doses during the day as it has a halflife of about 4 days. So lets look at a range of products and give you some times to start clomid, most of the short life oral steroids are not effected enough by this to warrant calculating dose dependant changes as it would be a difference in hours and the best rule of thumb with them is start clomid the day after you finish: Orals Anadrol / A-50s 8 hours (next day) Anavar 8 hours (next day) Dianabol 8 hours (next day) Winstrol 10 hours (next day) Injectibles Deca 400mg[1] a week taken split into two shots 24-25 days EQ 400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days Trenbolone 37.5mg per day 3-4 days 75mg per day 5-6 days Primobolan 400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days Sustanon[2] 500mg a week taken split into two shots 19-20 days 750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days Test Cypionate 8 500mg a week taken split into two shots 23-24 days 750mg a week taken split into three shots 27-28 days 1000mg a week taken split into two shots 31-32 days Test Enanthate 500mg a week taken split into two shots 20-21 days 750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days 1000mg a week taken split into two shots 27 - 28 days Test Propionate 50mg ED 4-5 days 100mg ED 6-7 days 200mg ED 8-9 days Test Suspension 8 hours (next day as the orals are) [1] only one dose example given here as it’s rare for any other dose to be used and if it is it tends to not be largely different - normally no more than 100mg one way or the other - you could add or subtract 1 or 2 days from PCT start date if you opt for a slightly different dose. [2] Damn horrid hard to calculate from 4 ester nonsense! * please note all calculations were made using http://powerboard.rockarfett.com/roidcalc/index.html but using the halflives listed in this book and not necessarily the ones they provide. The main reason for this was ease of calculations, the ‘roidcalc’ take into consideration things such as ester weight – 250mg of a steroid which has an ester attached is not 250mg of steroid as some of that weight is the ester it’s self. __________________ -- Biker To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01-01-2005, 08:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
Jimmy UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Forest gym crawley Posts: 4,361	cheers leprechan __________________ *To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.* 'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

01-01-2005, 08:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
Biker Part of the UK-M furniture... gathering dust in the corner :) Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,807	honestly I would be inclined towards taking dbol (or another fast acting oral) from the day after your last shot until the day before PCT which is similar to Jimmy's idea but avoids the extra shots. Although a Mon/Wed/Fri approach with test prop is also fine. Good cycle layout Jimmy but I feel the switch from sust to enanth is unecessary. of course the problem (if it is a problem!) is the overlap when switching from the long ester (which is still active in your body) to the faster ester. if you were taking a dose which gave 500mg of active test a week and you switch to test prop you will peak to a higher blood level for 2 weeks as the long ester is still floating about and the new ester reaches peak level quickly. Due to this often people will have stopped gaining from their cycle and then start to gain again in the last couple of weeks before PCT. __________________ -- Biker To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01-01-2005, 08:15 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jimmy UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Forest gym crawley Posts: 4,361	yes biker sometimes with clients on long cycles I use dbol, increasing the dose every week or so a good example was with firemansam from muscleweb his cycle was a simple test/en and dbol stack the test was injected every 5 days (its peak time IMO) so when we discontinued the test, the dose of dbol increased every 5 days as the previouse test shots natrually tapered out __________________ *To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.* 'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

01-01-2005, 08:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
Biker Part of the UK-M furniture... gathering dust in the corner :) Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,807	well I don't see the sense in it even if the cycle is longer... upping the dose yes taking the same compound with a different ester, pointless, TEST is TEST. unless of course you're switching to a much shorter ester as mentioned above. __________________ -- Biker To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. \| To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.