ShaunMc

the point i was making that the guys i mentioned seemed to view training and diet as the foundation of their physiques, drugs aid it

i totally agree it would be hard to achieve it naturally thats why we use gear , but its training where true bodybuilding ls founded... th gear is an aid.

the point i have made throughout is that too many guys on here seem to view bodybuilding as a personal biochemical experiment that involves going to the gym occasionally . There seems to be an over emphasis on the biochemical side of things at the expense of training

i have already mentioned that i have a degree in chemistry, a masters in physiology and a post grad in teaching plus 15 years experience of lecturing in physiology and biochem so i have a better than most knowledge , but when i read some of the threads i just strikes me as there is a large number of people who have missed the point of bodybuilding. Maybe reading some literature such as Blood and Guts by Dorian or Heavy Duty by Mentzer , or did i miss the chapters that droaned on about upgrading receptors and combining tren with deca for 2 days followed by sus then following 6 days PCT etc etc etc

__________________
I train at ironworx gym.where gods are made and naturals worship them

Marsbar

Hackskii .. from what I can gather Wogi also trained his ass off as well as an aggressive gear protocol.
I think its only the 'old heads' who can really grasp the point that Shaun is getting at. Back when I were a lad steroids were spoken about in hushed tones and were reasonably difficult to get .. I don't think I ever saw gear til I was 19 (and had been training for 5 years) but now with the prevalence of the internet, easier access to drugs of all kinds and the 'got to have it now' attitude of the youth of today don't see the point in building a base and really understanding training and diet .. they just think 'I'll take gear' that'll get me a big. Case in point I was in a supplement store last week and a really skinny lad was asking about protein powder .. I recommended a brand to him and he asked me if that one had 'steds' in .. WTF????
I fell in love with the iron, the sound of heavy things being lifted and the feeling of lifting heavy things .. it can't be beat... sure I like being on gear .. but my first love will always be the iron. IMO that marks out the serious trainees from those guys who just wanna be big to impress girls/intimidate guys.

Marsbar

This should be compulsory reading for those people who 'want it all now' ...

http://www.gittlen.com/rollins.htm

See what you're missing out on ;)

hackskii

Well guys if you don’t think I do see your point you are sadly mistaken.
Remember I am old school and I will be 49 in 3 months to the day.
Steroids have always been around, it was never talked about openly like it is now, but back then the same rules applied and some of what I am talking about was there before you were ever born.
The biggest guys in the gyms when I was growing up all were on steroids, now there are an exception to a couple of genetic freaks that didn’t even need steroids, and were strong.
I have seen guys train for years and never gain anything, one guy I train has gained a lot but he will never see a contest ready body anytime during his lifetime.

The question should be answered why do guys use steroids before they put their time in the gym learning about diet and nutrition?
Right?
This is quite a simple answer and it reflects back in the day when I was you guy’s age and still holds true now.
It is because the results come faster with the use of gear.
There is no other motivation other than gear works and works faster.
So, you guys can say all you want about being ready or not, I can tell that two posters right now on this thread that compete did not and are not at their genetic potential, actually not any way near.
Two other guys you listed actually have abused gear but out of the love I have for them will not give their names, and I don’t fault them, I have done the same and have my lumps to prove it.

But, you guys are not quite right about some of the things you are giving reference to.
First of all, many guys don’t learn about diet and training philosophies just like they don’t learn about steroids.
How many guys have gyno when this is the most basic of all things to avoid full stop?
Not only do they jump into training, they jump into eating all kinds of supplements that don’t work, and jump into steroids, then ask what protein powder is best.
Most all you guys are guilty of that, I have yet to see anyone’s diet and say, hell, that guy really knows about nutrition. A bodybuilding diet is not as healthy as most suggest, sure it can get you close but I look at everyone’s diet and see room for improvement in just a health conscious way of looking at things.
For the most part it is too light on green vegetables, too heavy on powders, too light on good fats, and too heavy on processed foods.
Would this hinder gains?
Probably not.
Would it be as healthy as a healthy diet?
Probably not.

It is the flavor of the post that makes me wonder.
Trust me before we go on I do understand what you mean, but.
Some guys that have posted on this thread and are on this board were asked to hold off on their use of gear.
Did they listen?
No!
Lets just take this one step further, they are first to suggest to others not to use and to hold off.
Sorry, but I smell hypocrisy all through this thread.
Not faulting you guys but I see it and you guys probably don’t even notice it your selves.
Many of you guys are slamming all kinds of stimulants like ephedrine, clenbuterol among other things all for the extra body fat burning it brings at the risk of cardiovascular health.
Nobody says anything about that.

I don’t like the condoned use of any gear use perse, especially when many of you guys have never had kids, are very young and don’t have much of a clue about the real priorities in life, with the exception of wanting big muscles.
But to suggest that there is a certain time frame, a certain knowledge about the sport that one need know first, or have to get the go ahead from a senior member that gives the ol kings X and allows one to use is just wrong.

Who has the right to use steroids?
Guys on TRT, that is who.
With the exception of age, nobody can say when, or how, or who can use steroids, it is not your job to suggest anything otherwise.
And actually for those that are on right now or have used really should not comment on when someone else can or should use due to the other person not fitting the profile of you or someone else’s opinion.
See how hypocritical this sounds?
Unless they fit one of the many molds they can’t use?

I am playing devils advocate here, but only because of the flavor of the thread.
I am not picking on anyone, not attacking anyone; I use gear myself, have used peptides but never used slin.
I don’t want to sound like a hard ass and please take no offence, but as I have said before, it is nobody’s position to tell anyone not to use if you are on steroids yourself.
It is nobody’s position to say anyone is ready when the person decides to use.
At this point it is our position to keep the person safe with good information.

__________________
Scott

Marsbar

Hacks .. FWIW my post wasn't aimed at you. I've been in a similar position to you .. I took gear from 19-21 then did nothing until I was 31 (still trained and trained hard .. made some good gains) then felt I was nearing my limit is opted to go on gear again (though I'm guessing that I'm one of the people you're saying is nowhere near their genetic limit). You're right .. no has the right to say who can and can't use steroids its just sad that the first thing people want to know about is gear and actual training and diet is almost an afterthought. :(

hackskii

I know what you guys are saying.
I might be old but I do try and read between all the lines.
I never took any one of the posts personal nor applied them to myself.
I dont give advice on things I have not tried myself personally.
I always discourage ones use to use.

I get asked all the time from older guys in my gym if I can get them gear.
But, comming from a guy that has had myself and two friends get shutdown for almost a year, I wont get it for them.
I can give you various medical conditions I have experianced and it would put many off with the use of gear.
Hell, I am on a cycle right now....lol

I understand that many jump into things.
Most do, and many will overtrain just like I did for about 20 years, more is not better.
To get advice that is solid form someone in the know would actually be expensive if done right.
This knowledge would take a very long time to learn, again most people are lazy.
What is the best protein powder?
How does this 30 sets for chest look?..........lol

Yes, alot can be learned from knowledge, but sadly people for some reason dont want that they want meat before they had milk.

This is in essence what this thread is about, those wanting meat before then even had milk.
And to that I agree.
It is just the criteria of others opinions that I just dont buy into.
Again no offence.
People dont want to learn, they want a shopping list for success.
That may or may not work as we are all individual.
Again, no offence guys, I love you all and love this board, I also love a good debate, and although I do agree, just not fully.........

Reps awarded to you posters....

__________________
Scott

ShaunMc

well said Marsbar .... you are totally on the ball with what i am trying to say

as you said i think guys who really love the sport and are serious about their training see the training as where its at and the drugs as an aid rather than the other way round

__________________
I train at ironworx gym.where gods are made and naturals worship them

hackskii

Ok, I hit everyone I could with reps on the good posts......lol
I even hit shaun and mars twice...........


It is funny as I have always trained, I am an identical twin, we train together, I love it.
My mindset is I will train even though I drink beer and dont have the perfect diet.
I use gear too.
I hit it super hard today with suppersetting back with 4 diffrent exercises that destroyed me.
I would lift weights even if I had one arm.
I have always done this forever.

Now, I do know many guys that only train on gear as they say, why bother I wont grow unless I am on.
They pop into the gym for a few months, get huge, go off, then disappear.
I see this alot, never understood this, but maybe this is exactally what the original poster meant....lol
Idiots.
I never quite understood this.

__________________
Scott

Pscarb

i remain patient because everyone never stops learning, i did not have the net available to me when i first started gear and this is why i understand both sides of the coin, i rushed into gear through peer pressure not understanding training or diet to any level and i certainly did not understand gear i don't mind admitting it so when those members say to me i am preaching to them they need to understand i have been where they are and no one told me to get a grasp of diet and training, because of this i have made the mistakes i am trying to have these guys avoid so they can grow with or without gear....

there is no quick fix even with gear, as Hackskii has pointed out you will grow with steroids no matter the diet or training but my point is how long will you keep those gains once the steroid stop?? i would guess not very long.
so the choice is simple in my book take the time and learn how your body works to different diets and training regimes then when you use steroids you can accomplish more on less and you will have a better chance in keeping what you have gained.

or

you can jump straight into steroid use with no foundation in diet and training...yes you will grow but once the steroids stop you will get smaller i know this for a fact because i chose option 2 and it took me years and years to gain any real keepable muscle to warrant the obvious risks steroids bring...

and this is what it is all about results over risk back when i started i had all the risk and no real gain after a cycle....

If guys want to get defensive and object to my opinion on this subject then again that is their choice but i will guarantee you will gain and keep more muscle with a good solid foundation than without it that is fact that cannot be argued with by anyone......

i know all this as i have been there and made the mistakes and that is why i keep my cool until someone steps over the line and insults me.....

Ziricote - on your point of clen you are wrong mate as most of us will always say that diet is to be spot on and used first before you add any stimulant like clen/eca....

Marsbar

Anyway .. enough talk .. I'm off for a jab ;)

cwoody123

In the 3 years i have been training i have loved every minute of it...even for a full year and a half where i had no testosterone and no results i still trained every 3 days, i am always itching to get into the gym and try to beat my best.

I done 2 successful and one failed cycle in a year in which my results coupled with my hard work and every fine tuned diet allowed me to excel quicker than what i would have naturally. would i change what i have done? Not one bit!

All i was really trying to get across on this thread was that no one who takes gear has a right to judge others or at least not to quickly!

I was not having a dig at anyone...to be honest looking your avater pics inspires me...i just get a bit aggressive and as you point out defensive (From being fat me think)

Any ways i always love a good debate and i am glad it has stayed civilized unlike some other posts ;-)

Pscarb: I was trying to look through my previous posts to see where i have disrespected you...i could not find anything to be honest...but if i have then i apologize as i did not intentionally set out to do so. I hope to learn a lot from yourself an many other knowledgeable people on these boards.

ShaunMc

at least it was a good debate and we all finished up friends ha ha

__________________
I train at ironworx gym.where gods are made and naturals worship them

hackskii

Damn nice post my friend..........
I do respect you and have more respect for you than most would ever know.
I do love these type of threads.
Personal experiances are all that I would like to read about....
I have made huge mistakes.....
I don't want others to follow my path........
Paul, you are a good guy.............

__________________
Scott

Tatyana

Great posts guys.

What I don't get is why you would want to start so young.

Especially if you are not competing, and even then, I think a lot of liberties are taken 'because I am doing a comp'.

If you can't pile on the muscle from age 18-26 naturally, barring medical conditions, I would assert you don't know what you are doing with training and diet.

It takes awhile to learn about these things, I really don't think you can learn it in a year or two, you can learn a lot, but unless you have some old-schooler take you under your wing, it will take far longer.

And the learning never stops.