Bodybuilding or the Pursuit of Pharmacology - Page 3 - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

**hackskii** · 29-06-2008, 12:18 AM

Course you can hold it but not forever.
Just like your strength gains on gear, best ever I did on gear, I came off and I never did that lift again.
The true question is what is your genetic potential?
It takes years for this to happen.
I kept gaining into my 40's for strength.
That is one of the purposes of gear in the first place.
It it took 10 years to get to your genetic disposition of muscle and you can get that in 2 years would this not be something that guys would want?

Make no mistake about it gear brings superior gains, even on a poop diet with a crap training phylosophy.

I find it strange that many guys that are on gear tell those that are not to wait till they are ready, and many of the ones saying not too, started young against the advice of those saying to wait.

If Ronnie quit all the drugs cold turkey, he would not carry near the size he has today.

Hormonally speaking, the older you get the less lean muscle mass you will have given all things the same.

Tatyana · 29-06-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackskii

It takes years to reach your natural genetic limit.
I dont agree that you are ready to use roids once you hit your limit.
For one, once you go past your gentic limit with gear, your natty hormones wont keep you there.
So, what is next, stay on?

Remember guys, they do give steroids to Aids paitents and others with muscle waisting and they end up with more lean mass, even without training.
I am playing devils advocate here.
In the end, it is all about choices, and those you own.

It's not just hormones that have muscle hypertrophy.

Mechanical overload seems to trigger the mTOR pathway of muscle protein synthesis independent of any hormones.

Considering that science hasn't fully got it sussed as to how muscle actually grows, or why some species of animals can hybernate for months on end without any muscle atrophy, I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basic hormone basket when it comes to muscle growth.

**hackskii** · 29-06-2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana

It's not just hormones that have muscle hypertrophy.

Mechanical overload seems to trigger the mTOR pathway of muscle protein synthesis independent of any hormones.

Considering that science hasn't fully got it sussed as to how muscle actually grows, or why some species of animals can hybernate for months on end without any muscle atrophy, I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basic hormone basket when it comes to muscle growth.

So you are suggesting that one can keep gains past his/her genitic disposition?
Regardless if exogenious hormones allowed one to progress past his/her genetic dispositon?
If hormones got you to your big gains then hormones don't or won't apply to keep said gains?
I personally don't buy this from my own experiance.
Although I will play devils advocate here.

I know a guy that did a 16 week deca only cycle that got shutdown for 1 year with testosterone levels that of a girl and he did keep alot of the gains from said cycle.
During this time he was depressed, had anxiety issues, had low to no libido, had serious skin issues (exema), all in all his quality of life as a man was compromised.
He looked pretty damn good actually.
3 years down the road, he looks not as good as when he was on, but he is ok in the libido department, does not have skin issues, nor anxiety issues, nor is he depressed.

I see playing with ones hormonal profile as borrowing.
You are borrowing from tomorrow.
Once things reset and one returns to homeostasis, the body goes back to where it wants.
What goes up, must come down.
The body is very smart.

colinidj · 29-06-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaunMc

alright mate how things going ... r u doing the universe in october. Im off diet now and enjoying eating lots again. The missus has been off diet too but starts again monday. To be honest dieting together was not too bad as we were both too drained to argue with each other .. ha ha

im not competing till next year now just trying to get a lot more mass on my frame as felt i was too light this year

things are fine with me mate no not doin the universe didn't qualify in 6th but wouldn't anyway wanna a few more stone on befor considerin that but gonna go an watch doin the same as you now pencil in next year see if i can crack top 3 this time can always dream lol .She's dietin again already oh rather her than me whats she dietin for this time ?

**Pscarb** · 29-06-2008, 11:44 AM

i have to agree with Hackskii on this if you use gear you will grow no matter what although i advise many to make sure their diet and training is in order so that the cycle can be as productive as it can be and to get into the practice as these two thing play a huge role in keeping most of the gains post cycle.

if you come off gear and go natural in time you will lose alot of the size you have built i cannot say all of it but a good deal of it it is foolish to think otherwise really...i had 1yr off steroids and yes i competed and i won but i lost 12lbs of lean tissue in that year who is to say that loss would not keep happening??
although i still stand by my comment that diet/training are more important than steroids if not to get big but to remain big....

Tatyana · 29-06-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pscarb

i have to agree with Hackskii on this if you use gear you will grow no matter what although i advise many to make sure their diet and training is in order so that the cycle can be as productive as it can be and to get into the practice as these two thing play a huge role in keeping most of the gains post cycle.

if you come off gear and go natural in time you will lose alot of the size you have built i cannot say all of it but a good deal of it it is foolish to think otherwise really...i had 1yr off steroids and yes i competed and i won but i lost 12lbs of lean tissue in that year who is to say that loss would not keep happening??
although i still stand by my comment that diet/training are more important than steroids if not to get big but to remain big....

I agree with this. If you rely on gear for growth you will lose a lot of size. If gear is only a training aid, completely different story.

I think all of us have seen the incredibly expanding and contracting lads in our respective gyms.

My point is that the focus on muscle hypertrophy has almost been exclusively focused on some of the basic endocrine hormones, testosterone, insulin, oestrogen, and more recently GH and IGF-1.

The research into muscle hypertrophy is fascinating, and it isn't exclusively hormones that cause muscles to hypertrophy.

I will see if I can find these research papers again, but there have been studies into completely castrated lab rats (+other endocrine organs), and if my memory serves me, men with gonadal dysfunction that have demonstrated muscle growth.

Ziricote · 29-06-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pscarb

i have to agree with Hackskii on this if you use gear you will grow no matter what although i advise many to make sure their diet and training is in order so that the cycle can be as productive as it can be and to get into the practice as these two thing play a huge role in keeping most of the gains post cycle.

if you come off gear and go natural in time you will lose alot of the size you have built i cannot say all of it but a good deal of it it is foolish to think otherwise really...i had 1yr off steroids and yes i competed and i won but i lost 12lbs of lean tissue in that year who is to say that loss would not keep happening??
although i still stand by my comment that diet/training are more important than steroids if not to get big but to remain big....

It'd be like having a car with a great ECU but an under-tuned engine, weak chassis and low grade petrol.

Thing I don't like to read is the vilification of people that use, even if they are stupid about it they should be steered not apposed. At the end of the day drugs are just tools that people use to get the desired effect, any tool could be used inappropriately but when treated with respect why appose it's use?

I can understand the frustration Shaun has that the general public see amateur and professional bodybuilders as nothing more than skinny guys that juice their way to the top but I doubt that would change if the skinny twit in the gym whose weight fluctuates wildly every two months stopped using steroids.

Personally I wonder if the so called "natural limit" isn't unlike trying to find gold at the end of a rainbow.

ShaunMc · 29-06-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwoody123

You mean like me mate

It is easy to make presumptions by looking at some pics...in my case i feel i am fully justified with what i am doing. Just coz i do not conform to your rules about getting big through diet and training first does not mean i have less right optimize my anabolic profile just like you!

I was not making any presumptions but your comments reinforce what i was saying. Training and diet are not my rules for getting big, they are the foundation for developing your physique. Bodybuilding is a way of life and the gym and your diet are what its all about. I think your comments reflect everything that is wrong in our society ... success without work , get rich quick, fame with no talent.

Ellen Macarthur single handedly sailed round the world ... why ? because its hard and difficult. It would challenge her, push her to the limit make her want to quit, make her face her fears and push her to the point of no return .... once she had done that she could sit back and say " i did that " where others quit she didn't . That sense of self achievement is only gained through hard work and focus.

You strike me as the type of guy who would take a round the world cruise and then compare yourself to her by saying " we both sat in a boat and see the world "

your attitude pollutes bodybuilding and is it not until you have achieved something you can feel proud of, will you know how irritating an attitude it is

ShaunMc · 29-06-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwoody123

What i am saying is some people use steroids for other reasons than just increasing there natural limit...some people including myself use these drugs for what they were intentended ...i just don't like it when people make presumptions based on some one's first post without knowing a thing about there history.

If we are talking about the moral use of steroids then NONE of you healthy males should even touch these drugs as they are for SICK people only, it does not matter if you are a seasoned BB or a newbie.

So all get of your moral high ground and accept that if somebody comes on here asking for help about starting drugs then instead of dissing them, why not educate them in to what they are getting there selves into and also take into account there history before lecturing people.

Some of you are far to quick to judge...especially since you yourself have no real medical justification to use the steroid meds in any case!

I am in no way questioning an individuals choice to use steroids , it could be argued that this is a sign of their hunger to succeed, but my point was that success comes with hard work, and chemical enhancement can aid that hard work but should never be a substitute for it. I feel there are too many people who have become obsessed with the chemical side of things at the expense of training and diet and they tend to be the guys new to the sport looking for an easy route

cwoody123 · 29-06-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaunMc

I was not making any presumptions but your comments reinforce what i was saying. Training and diet are not my rules for getting big, they are the foundation for developing your physique. Bodybuilding is a way of life and the gym and your diet are what its all about. I think your comments reflect everything that is wrong in our society ... success without work , get rich quick, fame with no talent.

Ellen Macarthur single handedly sailed round the world ... why ? because its hard and difficult. It would challenge her, push her to the limit make her want to quit, make her face her fears and push her to the point of no return .... once she had done that she could sit back and say " i did that " where others quit she didn't . That sense of self achievement is only gained through hard work and focus.

You strike me as the type of guy who would take a round the world cruise and then compare yourself to her by saying " we both sat in a boat and see the world "

your attitude pollutes bodybuilding and is it not until you have achieved something you can feel proud of, will you know how irritating an attitude it is

See there is even more presumptions, that i am lazy...if you new the truth you will see that is not the case at all!

No body has more right than any other to use these drugs...it does not matter whether your a newbie or a seasoned athlete...unless you are SICK the is no justifiable reason to use these meds.

We all choose to use them in the pursuit of better performance and aesthetics...if some one wants to use them look even a little better...who are you to judge...you did exactly the same thing but to just look a lot better....or say some young lad came on here and wanted to get big quick not for aesthetics but just so he can stand up to an abusive father who beats the **** out of him and his sister and mum everyday...is that senario justifiable?

**Pscarb** · 29-06-2008, 03:59 PM

Woody he is not judging you for using steroids he is saying by your avatar pic that you have not mastered diet or training to grow unassisted and i can see his point...

in my view for you or anyone else to use steroids to gain muscle when you have not achieved a solid base naturally is a bad thing and yes i did that when i was in my teens and regretted it for years

you say in a previous post that you use steroids for the purpose they where intended so you do not use them for muscle building?? and can i ask then why you made a post about buying them abroad as if you are taking them for the purpose they where intended then all your steroids will be prescribed to your Doc and have no need to buy abroad??

now these are questions not insults so please think before you answer my questions as i have seen in the past you get annoyed with others asking questions of your methods...

**Pscarb** · 29-06-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwoody123

say some young lad came on here and wanted to get big quick not for aesthetics but just so he can stand up to an abusive father who beats the **** out of him and his sister and mum everyday...is that senario justifiable?

No its not because steroids do not work like that it would take years for him without researching diet and training to be in any position to stand up to his father.....

Shaun is making a valid point and i agree that far to many use steroids as a quick fix to getting big i certainly did when i started was i wrong hell yes because like many others when i came off the steroids i lost alot of what i gained because my knowledge of diet was non existent, so as i said before by nailing diet and training principles first an finding how the body works before steroids not only will this help the steroids to be more effective when on cycle but it will help keep the gains off cycle as no one grows without food.....

ShaunMc · 29-06-2008, 04:13 PM

Thanks Paul im glad you could see where i was coming from

Woody i am not saying anybody has more of a right to take steroids than anyone else , my point is in relation to Bodybuilding. i Feel bodybuilding should be about the physical development of the body using specific exercises... using chemicals may aid that process but should not be the central focus of the process.

The only assumption i was making was that you were a bodybuilder of some type (a stupid assumption i know considering this is a bodybuilding forum !!!!)

some of the other points you are making are confusing. ????

29-06-2008, 12:18 AM	#31 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,714	Re: Bodybuilding or the Pursuit of Pharmacology Course you can hold it but not forever. Just like your strength gains on gear, best ever I did on gear, I came off and I never did that lift again. The true question is what is your genetic potential? It takes years for this to happen. I kept gaining into my 40's for strength. That is one of the purposes of gear in the first place. It it took 10 years to get to your genetic disposition of muscle and you can get that in 2 years would this not be something that guys would want? Make no mistake about it gear brings superior gains, even on a poop diet with a crap training phylosophy. I find it strange that many guys that are on gear tell those that are not to wait till they are ready, and many of the ones saying not too, started young against the advice of those saying to wait. If Ronnie quit all the drugs cold turkey, he would not carry near the size he has today. Hormonally speaking, the older you get the less lean muscle mass you will have given all things the same. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by hackskii; 29-06-2008 at 12:20 AM.

29-06-2008, 11:44 AM	#35 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,522	Re: Bodybuilding or the Pursuit of Pharmacology i have to agree with Hackskii on this if you use gear you will grow no matter what although i advise many to make sure their diet and training is in order so that the cycle can be as productive as it can be and to get into the practice as these two thing play a huge role in keeping most of the gains post cycle. if you come off gear and go natural in time you will lose alot of the size you have built i cannot say all of it but a good deal of it it is foolish to think otherwise really...i had 1yr off steroids and yes i competed and i won but i lost 12lbs of lean tissue in that year who is to say that loss would not keep happening?? although i still stand by my comment that diet/training are more important than steroids if not to get big but to remain big.... __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Admin at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Sponsored by Extreme Nutrition - Almost an unfair advantage

29-06-2008, 03:59 PM	#41 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,522	Re: Bodybuilding or the Pursuit of Pharmacology Woody he is not judging you for using steroids he is saying by your avatar pic that you have not mastered diet or training to grow unassisted and i can see his point... in my view for you or anyone else to use steroids to gain muscle when you have not achieved a solid base naturally is a bad thing and yes i did that when i was in my teens and regretted it for years you say in a previous post that you use steroids for the purpose they where intended so you do not use them for muscle building?? and can i ask then why you made a post about buying them abroad as if you are taking them for the purpose they where intended then all your steroids will be prescribed to your Doc and have no need to buy abroad?? now these are questions not insults so please think before you answer my questions as i have seen in the past you get annoyed with others asking questions of your methods... __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Admin at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Sponsored by Extreme Nutrition - Almost an unfair advantage

29-06-2008, 04:13 PM	#43 (permalink)
ShaunMc Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising each time we do Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Swindon Posts: 598	Re: Bodybuilding or the Pursuit of Pharmacology Thanks Paul im glad you could see where i was coming from Woody i am not saying anybody has more of a right to take steroids than anyone else , my point is in relation to Bodybuilding. i Feel bodybuilding should be about the physical development of the body using specific exercises... using chemicals may aid that process but should not be the central focus of the process. The only assumption i was making was that you were a bodybuilder of some type (a stupid assumption i know considering this is a bodybuilding forum !!!!) some of the other points you are making are confusing. ???? __________________ Shaun McDonald South West Class 1 2008

29-06-2008, 04:28 PM	#44 (permalink)
ShaunMc Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising each time we do Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Swindon Posts: 598