redman

Ok so I have reached 30 I have 2 children and im fully aware of the risks involved in never really comming off again.

I have been off for 6 months now and concidering an all out assault in gaining as much muscle mass as possible over a 24-36 week period then to follow this up with a 24 week cruise and then slip into 12 week cycles of blast cruise.

An example of the cycles.

weeks 1-6 Test-e 600mg/w
weeks 7-12 Test e 750mg/w
weeks 13-18 Test-e 750mg/w tren-e 250mg/w
weeks 19-24 test-e 900mg/w tren-e 300mg/w

cruise 250mg/w test-decanoate 24 weeks

second cycle.

weeks 1-4 Test-e 600mg/w EQ 400mg/w
weeks 5-8 Test-e 750mg/w EQ 600mg/w
weeks 9-12 Test-e 1000mg/w EQ 750mg/w

cruise for 12 weeks 200mg test-decanoate/w.

etc.

I am looking for feedback reguarding the effectiveness of blast crusie cycles in younger men or the effectiveness of cycles when the athlete has not come off and instead used TRT.

Also I am looking for opinions on the length of the cruise portion of the cycle after all recovery is not what I am looking for just to refresh the receptors so increasing amounts of AAS do not have to be used to yeild gains.

Thanks Redman

pauly7582

Sounds like you've decided, but how did you feel being off for 6 months?

Do you have low tesosterone? Supressed for a long time? What are your blood levels?

The reason I ask is that 6 months- I assume without knowing your cycle history- would be enough to recover from the average cycle. So why not cycle as normal?

Just curious.

__________________
6ft 222lb 12%bf

Strength cycle: Test enth/Tren enth/Oxymeth/Halo/Proviron/T3

Bench: 180kg
Deadlift: 260kg
Squat: 200kg (for reps- focusing on DL over quads)
Overhead Press: 100kg

pauly7582

Sorry just noticed you're 30. Your only 5 years older than me! Meaning you would be on AAS for another 40 years if you made 70?

I always think as well, that if at any point you are admitted to hospital for an extended period your immunity will near vanish because you can't support yourself with your regular injections (MRSA for starters). I'm certain no doctor would prescribe testosterone even in this case.

I'd advise against it whatever you current situation mate.

__________________
6ft 222lb 12%bf

Strength cycle: Test enth/Tren enth/Oxymeth/Halo/Proviron/T3

Bench: 180kg
Deadlift: 260kg
Squat: 200kg (for reps- focusing on DL over quads)
Overhead Press: 100kg

romper stomper

that would be a big if, this is from a 43 year old.

redman

I have been off for 6 months out of choice. I feel fine have no surpression and my blood work is A+, I have ran cycles lasting over 20 weeks and made a full recovery. When off cycle I have issues with cortisol, I am a highly stressed individual and I feel that test goes a very long way in controlling cortisol.

again I am fully aware I would be on Test for 40 years plus. My dad age 61 has been put on TRT by his doctor and feels instantly better (never cycled in his life). Come my mid to late 50s I would likely visit my doctor and be placed on androgel of simular so I dont worry, I know an ex competitive bodybuilder who has been on for over 25 years at stupid doses and cruised at 500mg/w his doctor simply prescribed him TRT when he told him what he had done.

One thing is for certain that come the age of 50-55, im going on TRT and GH till I die either way. If my doctor will not prescribe it to me ill either find a new doctor or do it my self, so the way I see it is I have 20 years to cycle in. If this way of thinking means I live 5 years less so be it, as I believe I will enjoy my life in my old age a whole lot better my dad certainly is.

I have a great PCT in place but I hate the feeling of comming off, I dont want to feel great for 10 of those 20 years and be in recovery for the other 10. obviously I am refering to multiple cycles hear. When I come off I retain mass and strength well but cortisol spikes and I feel very emotionaly stressed.

Romper stomper your comment has no scientific grounding what so ever. I would have every chance in making it to age 70, instead of cycling off I would simply be replacing my own test with sytehetic test. There is actually another side to the arguement that states this approach would help extend my life as test combats cortisol and cortisl is seriously not my friend. I realise that the body is going to try and find a homostais balance with cortisol:test ratio but I would not have to endure post cycle spikes. Stress is indeed a killer.

The other reason I am confident I will make 70 is my diet/lifestyle/training are excellent, I dont drink, smoke and I avoid 17aa AAS. The average man is sedentry and has poor diet and less than ideal life style. Im confident I will make 90!


I spoke to a freind of mine reguarding this who is an amazing endrocrinologist and he suggested a crusie dose of 100mg/w of test-e with a next generation SERM namely toremiphene. Repeated studies have shown 100mg/w of test-e with a SERM to have no surpressive effect on the HPTA, (yes read that again) or test without the use of SERM will have no surpressive effect on the HPTA at 25mg/w

After looking into this a litte further I found a PCT protocol devised by a very well respected competitive bodybuilder called the "stasis taper or test taper".

Post cycle the individual injects 100mg/w of test-e split into two weekly injections for a period of 4-6 weeks (4 weeks for short esters, 6 weeks for long). This "stasis period" is designed to let all other compounds clear the system and for a hormonal environment simular to that of an average man to exist. 100mg/w of week of test-e minus the ester weigth equates to around 9mg/d of test.

This stasis period is followed by a test taper. Now I know what your thining tapers dont work but we are not talking 800mg 600mg 400mg etc. We are Talking 80mg/60mg/50mg/40mg/30mg/20mg. In consecutive weeks.

The test stasis taper is designed for cycles lasting 12-16 weeks and it is vital you only use test and a SERM not HCG/HMG this is used throughout the cycle and stops before the 6 week stasis period. both on paper and as I am told in real world applications (with blood work to back this up) this PCT protocol is proving to offer exceptional recovery with a seamless transation and no crash.

I have spoken both to the endocrinologist and the gent who devised this PCT about prolonged cycles and they were both in agreement that recovery would simply take longer. forcycles lasting 24 weeks or longer I was advised to complete a test taper in a weekly manner as thus. 80/80/60/60/50/50/40/40/30/30/20/20.

This may be the answer I have been looking for, I grow better off long cycles and hate the feeling of low or no test.

One thing for certain is that if i choose to cruise I will do so at 100mg/w of test-e and not 200.

for me....

HCG throughout the cycle and nolva and clomid for PCT work.

HMG and HMC throughout the cycle and the next generation SERMs Toremiphene and raloxifene work better.

Iam going to at least try one PCT recovery using the stasis taper and report back.

Hears an outline as devised by my friend Prisoner.

This is the protocol:

Following the cycle use a 4-6 week waiting period also refered to as 'stasis period' by somebody.

4 weeks if you are using esters such as propinate.

esters such as cypionate and enanthate are in the middle - 4-6 week waiting period - your decision as it is a tough call. I prefer more weeks then less.

6 week waiting period for esters such as decanoate -i.e. deca.

During the waiting period you should taper off any aromatase inhibitors you are using - basically get rid of all drugs in your system besides testosterone.

Once the waiting period is over, then gradually reduce the dose weekly for 6 weeks untill you are off.

I preffer injecting enanthate twice per week as my ester of choice. But you can use propinate or sustenon as well, just devide it into 3 doses per week.

Once the taper starts, that is around the time you would start using a serm if you are going to use one.

You can taper without a serm and still be successfull doing so.

the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week

It also showed no hpta suppression with no serm use while using 25mg of testosterone enanthate per week.

So as i said it is possible to taper with our without a serm successfully.

If you are using HCG during the cycle to maintain testicular size and function - you must stop HCG at the end of your cycle and by hcg free throughout the waiting period.


So to put it all together using testosterone enanthatate dose split into biweekly injections:

Cycle ends, stop hcg if using,

start Waiting peroid:

Week 1-6 or 1-4: Test E 100mg per week
Taper off Arimidex or femara fully by week 3

Taper phase:

week 1-6

mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg/ 30 mg/ 20mg.

Start your Serm (nolva or clomid) at the begining of the taper if you choose to do so.


If you decide to use Masteron,

Then you use 50mg Test E, and 50mg Masteron E per week or masteron prop, with test prop for the waiting period, and keep the ratio the same as you taper down as well (1:1, with the starting totol mg amount 100mg).

No Serm use is needed and i have found libido to be even better when using this mix.

the masteron acts as an anti E, and the DHT enhances libido. The masteron itself at that amount does not subtract from hpta function more than it adds libido enhance ment, and estrogen control.

The masteron is the only drug that i have found to fit the bill perfectly for this purpose, but you can try aromasis as well, but I don't think it would have the same positive effects on libido.

As for using other drugs during your pct that may enhance workouts and maintain size...

there are a wide variety of supplements out there that have no negative effect on the hpta.

As for other drugs, some options would be:

IGF, MGF, HGH....

Clenbutoral,

and Insulin which I highly do not recommend.

Aftershock

Interesting read.

I have been bridging on 125mg of test E between cycles for about 9 months now, although I do plan on experimenting with the longer Undecanoate ester as some point to reduce the frequency of the shots while still keeping blood levels stable.

I do not need to excessively increase my AAS dosage when on to start gaining well. 750mg is ample.

I don't do it as scientifically as you have outlined but I do taper off my cycle dose back to the cruising dose and employ anti-catabolic drugs such as GH/Slin during the taper to help override the cortisol backlash.

I find I need at least 8 weeks of cruising before Im even ready to contemplate upping the dose again. Which is in reality about 12 weeks from the point I start to taper off. I cant put my finger on exactly why I just know instinctively that my body is not ready for it before then.

Interesting with HPTA recovery while running Torm, I've seem a similar article with Clomid. I'll try and dig it out. It could be useful when bridging just to give the body a break from the HCG.

redman

thanks for the feed back I just what I was looking for. reps.

If I were you I would add a SERM and drop your weekly test dose to 100mg/w as research shows no surpression with this protocol using Toremifene at 40mg/d. without Torm test intake needs to be lower than 25mg/w in ordr to have no supressive effect on the HPTA. I would alsoadd in proviron as this again has not effect on the HPTA. Both Torm and Proviron increase sperm count and quality. Torm also has the added benefit of protecting against prostate cancer and actually having a positive effect on the HPTA. With all this in mind I feel HCG can be dropped during the bridge. Also it is vital to drop HCG if this bridge or stasis phase is followed by a test taper PCT.

For further reading proof I suggest reading the following.

1: The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.

2: The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

3: Toremifene for the prevention of prostate cancer in men with high grade prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia: results of a double-blind, placebo controlled, phase IIB clinical trial.

IMO nolva and clomid are dead long live Toremifene and raloxifene.

Ill be running the stasis taper after a 24 week cycle to judge its effectiveness and then jump on to blast cruise and maybe attempt a stasis taper after 60-80 weeks of blast cruise. If I make a full recovery using the taper method I will have no reservations about being on full time.

Now its time to research cortisol control. Aftershock I know your interested in that side of things.

jw007

i have not really come off aas for a couple of years now,Im 34 started by accident, ran a course, finished, had a few sh1t weeks so put a couple of shots of sus in to boost training and thats how it started, just another shot if feeling a bit weak etc...

Then i didnt like the bloat that test was giving me so i went a year just running primo and masteron and occasionally a little bit of tren, i ran HCG every 3-4 days at 400iu while at same time running gh and slin PWO on training days, i also ran proviron at aroung 150mg a day every 4 weeks for a few weeks...

During this time i managed to get my Gf pregnant, which was a miracle because she thought she never could get pregnat what with polycistic ovaries and other probs....

Thought i better run some PCT so i didnt come of but run low dose Primo along with fast acting shots pre workout (ie test base, tren base, inject oxy etc) my thinking was primo would inhibit but not completely shut down HPTA, so PCT meds could possible work, and by utilising very fast acting esterless aas Pre workout, test levels were only raised for a few hours so it would not cause further shut down.
I added Proviron to this cycle as well.
AS far as i could see my nuts came back, sex drive was fine, was living a catabolic lifestyle and maintaining mass and strenght so things seemd ok.
During this time i had an operation, blood tests were taken before hand and doc said results were all in range, he didnt specify and i didnt ask....

Then decided to compete in Powerlifting so then went back on test at around 1500mg a week along with around 800mg tren,all along running HCG, GH and slin
Did this for about 4 months, no problems apart from sleep disturbances and hearburn from tren, which i then ceased.

Currently im cruisng at around 500mg test a week, until i decide what my next move comp and aas wise is.
I now have no current plans to come off, im fully aware that i will prob have to run some sort of TRT for remainder of life unless (which i have no problem with) i want to feel sh!te for a year or so why my body re-adjusts...

Currently most people i know who compete or are at a decent muscular level around my age actually never come off and some run 1g plus a week test contiuosly with so far no ill effects.
A few have blood work done on occasion, and so far no probs to speak off....

Im not condoning anything and my method is far from scientific, its just the way things have turned out.

I fully expect to have more children and so far i dont see any reason why i cant as i was previoulsy on a course when got missus pregnant before

dean c

i am pretty much emabarking on the same thing mate , im 26 and plan on staying on basically running hrt type doses between cycles .

it is reassuring the fact your in a similar position and have managed to have kids as this is my main concern as i havent started a family yet but definately want kids in a few years .my plan then was to come clean whilst trying for kids then go back on afterwards

mars1960

Hi redman, you know my take on this, but i was a tad older when i decided to employ that method. Don't get me wrong i'm certainly not saying it's a bad idea for you, but it sure as hell takes a lot of fiddling and fine tuning which i am still working on as you know.
As you may remember my blasts are now going to be shortened and i will also try the sust@250mg E9D as opposed to weekly.
This approach with the shorter blasts and the taper down to cruise level, will i hope give me better gains on blasts.
I think long blasts for me are rather counter productive now, my best gains are made within the first 8wks, after which they slow down considerably. The extra 4wks i will now use to taper slowly down to cruise level. I'm also going to consider extending the cruise by a few more weeks.
I'll let you know how i get on.

redman

Thanks for the imput guys.

I have now made my mind up.

Im not comming off, I will cruise with 100mg/w of test-e 40mg of tormiphene and 100mg/d proviron which research has shown to have no surpressive effect on the HPTA

Ill start with 24weeks on 12 cruise and then jump on to 12-16 on 8-10 cruise.

I grow very well on long cycles as I use what I call step cycling, I increase my intake every 4-6 weeks when I feel homostasis starts to kick in.

In the event I choose to cruise for longer than 8-10 weeks ill complete a stasis taper and get my test levels checked to see if it works.

OK hears the plan starting next monday.

Weeks 1-6
600mg/test-e week.
20mcg IGF1 PWO Bi lat
4iu GH EOD
5mg Aromasin/d

Weeks 7-12
700mg test-e/w
400mg EQ/w
25mg D-bol/d
5iu GH EOD
5mg aromasin/d

Weeks 13-18
800mg test-e/w
400mg EQ/w
200mg Tren-e/w
50mg proviron/d ( I always use proviron with Tren)
20mcg IGF1 PWO Bi lat
6iu GH EOD 4 units slin
10mg aromasin/d

Weeks 19-24
900mg Test-e/w
500mg EQ/w
250mg Tren-e/w
50mg proviron-d
100mg Var/d
DHEA 200mg/d
8iu GH EOD 6 units slin.
10mg aromasin/d

Week 25

100mg test-e/w
40mg Tormefine/d
5mg Aromasin/d
100mg DHEA/d
100mg Proviron/d
5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Week 26
100mg Test-e/d
40mg Toremifene/d
5mg Aromasin/d
100mg DHEA/d
100mg Proviron/d
5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Week 27
Test-e 100mg/w
40mg Tormefine
5mg Aromasin
50mg DHEA
100mg Proviron/d
5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening


Week 28-?
100mg-test-e/d
40mg Toremifene/d
50mg Proviron/d
5iu GH/d 3iu am/ 2iu noon 2iu evening

Potential cortisol control period.....

Week 22, 250mg cytraden. monday/tuesday, thursday/friday.
week 23-24 500mg cytraden. monday/tuesday, thursday/ friday.
Week 25 250mg cytraden. monday/tuesday, thursday/ friday.

HCG 75iu HMG 75iu EOD weeks 1-24.
Adiquan 125mg every 2weeks.

Drugs on stand by.

Letro, cabbergoline, For Gyno.
Cyproheptadine HCL For appitite
Amoxicillin For infection.
Melanotan For a holiday at the end. LOL

Marsbar

Some cracking posts and this is something that I've 99% made my mind up to do. I'm 34, 3 kids, had the snip and I know I'm in good health. Have only had a few weeks off in the last 12 months but not noticed any adverse effects (feel better than ever actually) which could also be down to the fact that I only ever really do test cycles. I do agree with tapering .. one of the best recoveries I ever made was after a 20 week test cycle I tapered off on prop for 8 weeks, ran PCT and recovered like a dream. Just come off my comp cycle and running 2-3 ml prop per week before I do my rebound .. will then cruise on 100-150mg test e pw before my next blast ;)

jjb1

if your doing long esters for long time cycles wouldnt it make more sense to bridge with short esters like prop few more injections but your bridging letting the enan clear befroe a whack back in with enan in much higher doses to the prop..?

i really dont think its the way forward staying on and as redman has shown its alot of techinical planning and different drugs to make it anywhere near safer

wogihao

I did & am doing blast/cruse but it was with much shorter periods. (3-6 weeks)

I kept growing so it was good, in the cruse periods i would go lighter on training and let the body recover from the session whilst on the blast. It seems to have worked ok and touch wood I havent had any injurys.

I think the bigest advantage is you never realy go into a catabolic hole whilst cruseing so your going to keep the majority of your gains from the burst assuming that your diet is ok.

pauly7582

Appreciate the points of view.

Seems like a very well thought out plan. I'm also of the opinion that I'd prefer to live a more fulfilling life, even if it is shortened slightly.

My only concern would be the dependence. I plan to travel and possibly move to a different country. Who knows what opportunities I might have in the future. Such a potentially complex medicine regimen might limit these. There are lots of 'what ifs' that spring to mind. I would only go down this avenue if I was unable to recover properly from AAS. But hey, that's just me. I don't intend to p1ss on anyone's party.

Good luck!

__________________
6ft 222lb 12%bf

Strength cycle: Test enth/Tren enth/Oxymeth/Halo/Proviron/T3

Bench: 180kg
Deadlift: 260kg
Squat: 200kg (for reps- focusing on DL over quads)
Overhead Press: 100kg