Anders

Evening all,

Just been wading through all of the PCT docs on these forums which seem to cover all of the basics and more.

A theme I have taken from all your input is that you generally wait until the half life of the esther has cleared before starting PCT therapy. This makes sense to me.

However, I'm confused in particular with say Deca and Equipoise because they both have the longest half lives of around 15/16 days. I see people advising to wait 3 weeks or up to 30 days before starting PCT with these steroids - yet by my calculations, assuming someone is on a low dose of say 200mg, they wouldn't be down to around zero for like 105 days or longer.

My point is, at what doseage is a steroid clear at? 0mg? 10mg? I can understand for a testosterone - you just wait till it decreases to a level that you would find naturally in your body - but what about the steroids you don't find naturally, what level is a safe level to consider starting PCT at?

Hope this makes sense to everyone and hope you can set me straight.

Best regards,

Anders

hackskii

Well bro, this is kindof hit and miss.
Blood test would be about 49 mgs a week or 7 mgs a day on an average.
So when your natural test level is shut down and you let the gear go to zero then you will have the testosterone production of a woman. Not good!

So if you wait till it is at a low enough dose for your natural test production to kick in you add the PCT. This kindof jump starts your nuts to get back to work.

Other factors include, metabolism, age, body type (endo, ecto, meso), amount of fat, the ester and the amount of gear you were using. The more gear the longer the wait to start your PCT.

I am glad you asked this question as it is really important one. Starting too early can have its conciquences. Example.
Me. I did 500 test E for 7 weeks, developed a physical condition related to blood pressure and gear so I got off the cycle.
After 3 weeks I started my PCT (that is about right).
But I still felt the gear in my body (red face, higher than normal blood pressure, massive sex drive). After I was done with my PCT I noticed my nuts were still atrophying and were getting smaller.
I started too early to make a long story short.
Everyone is diffrent so there is no set way with the exception of a blood test.

__________________
Scott

DB

Someone will come in with a more technical reason (hackski knows his sh1t on half lifes and PCT and so on).

but here goes my view...

Basically mate theres no point starting PCT untill the AAS' have cleared your system otherwise the clomid wont have any effect or it'll bring very limited results.

people say wait 3 weeks to start PCT on deca because there are many different views on how long deca's half life is some say 14days, some 16, and many say 21.

DB

damn hacks! i statted to reply and come back to my computer and u beat me to it!!

MEATNECK

this is the reason for the 300mg the first day...if your levels are still a bit elevated the clomid will still have an effect...

Anders

Thanks for your responses so far lads. Diary barry, I agree that there is no point starting PCT until the AAS have cleared your body, but with deca and EQ whether the half life is 14, 16 or 21, still doesn't make much difference cos after 3 weeks even a low dose of 200mg deca is still not gonna be truly clear - at the best case (14 days) it'll be at around 75mg level in ur body after 3 weeks. At worst case (21 days) it'll still be up around 100mg after 3 weeks - hardly clear enough from the body for PCT to be effective!

I think for each AAS you would need to understand at what point after finishing the last injection (or tablet) your natural testosterone levels are reuced to their natural levels and then begin PCT before they drop any lower. Would this be correct?

Hackskii I agree with your comments about it being hit and miss due to the number of influencing factors - but can you explain what you mean by "Blood test would be about 49 mgs a week or 7 mgs a day on an average.
"

Anders

I think this is the answer I'm looking for - you need to know what your testosterone is doing as a result of the cycle - and this will dictate when the pct needs to begin.

Aren't there some self test kits for testosterone?

winger

Wouldn't that be nice. I would rather start my pct earlier than later. Let me throw a monkey wrench in here. Supposidly they can find deca in the blood a year later. I know that 6 months after my last shot my nuts were getting smaller and smaller. I think hcg is mandatory if you get atrophy of the nuts. If you are doing deca and you get atrophy then use hcg during cycle and keep the nolva ready............
I took one 100 prop and a 250 enenthate shot and I noticed it for 19 days. But I also noticed it took the exact same amount of time to recover.

Greyphantom

The main reason you start before totally clear is to kick start the natural process BEFORE you are at the 0 mark... this will then bring you back and hopefully the two will compliment each other.. ie just as the artificial values drop to nothing the natural values will be climbing (or ideally back in full swing)... as Hacksii said our natural levels are between 7-11mg a day production wise... also it does vary person to person... it can be a bit trial and error but these timings should give you a good head start... to personalise it more you may want to start a week later if you feel you can... I can vary mine as much as each cycle... and run it for longer if the cycle is heavy...

Cheater2K

Good questions, ive more of less relied on peopls tried and tested opinions on this matter.

Greyphantom

There are some test kits for test levels (as well as covering other values) and they are ones where you get up in the morning take a sample of saliva (I believe) and then send it to the lab and you get the results in a couple of days... can remeber the name of the company but if I come across it will let you know (please remind me every week or so as I am getting old and the memory is going...lol)

Anders

Excellent - thanks for the information lads.

Reading further, and from your responses, it does seem that the 300mg day 1, then 100mg then 50 is a sensible approach. However a researcher believes that doing this just after a cycle is not enough - I think his words were "woefully inadequate". (I can't agree or disagree having not yet done any AAS cycles.) There was a link to an article posted by Hackskii I think where a researcher suggested doing hcg during pct was the way forward, then another researcher suggested that this approach was dangerous because it can actually cause gyno due to the sharp sudden rise in natural test after administering hcg. The 2nd researcher suggests using clomid or nolva throughout the cycle, then using hcg at something like 500 iu a day for 2 weeks during the last 2 weeks of the cycle to bring the nads back up in readiness for pct with clomid etc after the cycle ends and the AAS have cleared.

This seemed like a sensible approach as it is "supposed" to prevent atrophy occuring in the first place rather than dealing with it after it happens in pct... Any thoughts/experience on this?

Regards,

Anders

hackskii

Well, It is my feeling that using HCG post cycle will hold your natural levels back as you will be above your normal levels of testosterone. HCG also raises estrogen too and this has a negative feedback on the HPTA as well.
These 2 factors will push your start date even further back than the 21 day mark.
This is why some guys take HCG the last 2 weeks of the cycle (not post cycle) and some guys (like myself) take it throughout the cycle.

Deca is a bitch for some on the HPTA. I have read of guys shutting down for up to one year.
Talk about losing prescious gains. That might even put you back wards.

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Scott