DrSquatt

Hi everyone,

Would really like some advice please if anyone can help?

I'm considering doing a Sustanon only cycle. About 10 weeks at 250ml-500ml p/week depending on how I react to it.

I finished my 2nd ever cycle about 5 months ago where I used deca & sust. Got reasonable results but got gyno too at the end of the cycle. It started at week 7 with a painful small lump. This subsided with nolva, but when I used HCG at the end I developed fatty droopy nipples and the area around them. The lump went down but am still left with slightly saggy nips that dont get any better.

I think I crashed pretty hard coz I still dont feel right. I just feel testosterone depleted. No real go in me or motivation & cant seem to get myself back into good shape which was never a problem pre-cycle and am carrying alot of bodyfat/water etc.. (used to be very lean!)

My question is basically, even if my body isnt 'fully' recovered (I'm sure it must be after 5 months or more!) am I ok to start another cycle as mentioned above? I'll take 20mg Nolva e/d to be on the safe side hopefully to keep the gyno at bay.

Thanks alot peeps ;-)

ukrossco

Hey mate,

Are you in the UK?

To be honest, I'd go to your Doctor to have your bloods checked. My doctor knows I take courses of gear and he takes bloods regularly during and after to check that estrogen / testosterone balance is acceptable and returns to normal. I'd go and see your doc and be straight with them about what you've taken and when - if you're in the uk, it's not illegal to take AS (or even to import or buy them) but only to supply/sell them, so there is no reason for your doctor to get all 'I live on a hill' about it! I know a bunch of guys at my gym who have had reason to see their docs while on AS for one reason or another and none have ever had a negative reaction.

Also, you can double the dose of Nolvadex and still be within the 'normal' dosing range of 20 - 40mg daily. Higher doses are very well tolerated, however, the law of diminishing returns plays a part in the body's reaction to Nolvadex and doses over 20mg don't show a great increase in effect. I'd definitely talk to your doctor though.

I think the other problem you've got though is that you're using sustanon which is made up of 4 different testosterone esthers with various half-lifes, the longest being
decanoate which comprises 40% of your Sustanon by weight and has a half life of 15 days (the others have a half life 4.5 and 9 days). So even if you do notice that you've got a problem with gyno, there'll still be significant amounts of testosterone in your boody for some time. I'd be tempted, just to be on the safe side, to use a short acting testosterone, like propionate, even if this means an increased injection schedule. That way you can know that at the first sign of gyno, you've got more control over the amount of test in your body and can throw some more nolvadex down your neck too. Personally, I switch from sust to propionate if available, in the last four weeks of a cycle, to make sure that my post cycle therapy isn't competing against the long acting esther in sustanon.

I'm pretty much a noob, only been training a year, but I've read all the journals and know the biochem inside out - but I'm sure some of the other guys with more experience will be able to add.

Ross

Harry

Before you take Ross's advice just be aware that it will go on your medical records and may effect things like Life Insurance and jobs such as Civil Service, Forces, Fire Service etc...

However, I would go and see my doctor and tell him how I'm feeling but not mention AAS usage, gyno can be caused by other things also so can Test Crash, so he should be able to sort it out without you having to bear your soul.

There are also private Doctors that do this such as Thedoctorltd.co.uk who will do test and advise you accordingly.

What was your PCT post cycle?

beequeth

Sounds like you havent recoverd to pre cycle levels of Test yet.
I have been in the same boat myself, the older you get the worse it is - how old are you btw mate ?

TBH, I think you have to ask yourself the question - will you be be running many more cycles over the comming years, or will you be more of a once a year type user.

If your going to be running multiple cycles per year, I would jump straight back on now (and thats what I have done in the past).

Otherwise, give it more time, maybe try something like tribulus, or even run a 3-4 week PCT again. Alternatively go to the doctors and ask him for blood tests. You may get loads of grief from him but at least you will know one way or the other, what the problem is.

As for the gyno situation, I cant advise from experience, but nolva every day would probably help. May be better with an AI though. Personally I would have both to hand and try the cycle. If things start to develop then you have the drugs to atempt to correct the problem.

Good Luck....

Harry

Lethro may be your best bet at the moment for reducing the gyno. But that will also effect your labido in a negative way.

DrSquatt

Thanks guys for the advice there & ukrossco for the in depth Sust profile.

beequeth I'm 32 years old. Youre probably right in that I havent fully recovered yet. It must be at least 5 months now tho!! My PCT was 2 shots of HCG @ 5000iu and nolva every day for about a month. Not sure I did it right tho!

Would doing another 3-4 weeks of pct help do you think? & what would you recommend as a rather late pct? product & dosages?

I'm gonna be more of a 'once-a-year' user rather than constantly on/off, but if I went back on cycle now (rather than waiting however many more months it may take to get natural test levels back up) would I then feel better in myself and be able to gain muscle mass again, and if I did that would by following a more appropriate PCT be able to get back on track to normal test levels again after the cycle .... quicker than i have this time?

I have made an appointment for a doctor to phone me up today so I can discuss maybe getting a blood test to check my test levels, but if they are low is there anything the doc can actually do to bring them up again, coz if not then prob pointless going as I obviously know the reason for the test crash (tho I wont tell them that).

Thanks for the link Harry. Interesting site that! I have heard of Letro being a good cure for gyno, but dont think I want to risk lowering my libido anymore than it currently is!! It's been fairly low ever since coming off cycle. I'm in a new & very serious relationship & during this 'honeymoon' period of dirty wkends etc I could do without yet another blow to my confidence :-) Do you know 1st hand whether this stuff actually works?

Thanks again guys.

Harry

I have used Lethro to reduce my gyno down to an acceptable size, it won't get rid of it, only surgery will do that but it is the next best thing.

As for your PCT it wasn't very good IMO mate. I think you should try the following PCT as recommended by Hackskii:

1-16 Days – HCG @ 2500iu EOD (Pre-Bed)
1-45 Days – Nolva @ 20mg ED
1-30 Days – Clomid @ 100mg ED

Give that a go and shee how you get on. If you do eventually do another cycle you can use the Lethro then as the Test will give you some Labido.

more muscle

Yeah I think your HCG use was too short as well. From some articles I've read I think 500IU's is the most you should take in a single shot. Lots of people say otherwise and its a personal choice.
I take 500IU's every other day for a total of about 9 shots.
I did deca and sust250 as well. Took nolva with the hcg at 20mg and continued it for 3 weeks after. No problems with sex drive or performance.
But everyone's different.

The thing is if your gonna do a cycle I'd do it now when your test is as it is. The cycle will only set it to a low or non existant level anyway whether its normal or not. Just do a good pct this time. Its amazing how long a good pct can take. For me it's 6 weeks. It will be worth it tho when you have your sex drive and keep most of the gains.

beequeth

I had a feeling you may be older than most of the guys on here !
Recovery deffo takes longer the older you get.

I think your PCT was probably not good enough. Those 2 x shots of HCG at 5000iu might have been enough to make your gyno worse mate. Thats a very high dose, especially during PCT. Also, I have found that nolva alone is pretty useless for me. I now use a combo of Clomid and Nolva for PCT. I run HCG at 500iu to 1000iu every 5 to 10 days during the cycle, but not into the PCT.

The PCT that Harry suggested would be OK to run again IMO only with less HCG.

If you go back on cycle now, you will feel fantastic within a couple of days of the test getting into your system. You should be able to make the gains and enjoy the cycle as you ususally would.

If you run a decent PCT after this cycle (as above) you should recover just fine. However exactly how long that will take is really down to you and your body - everyone is different.

The choice is down to you at the end of the day.

DrSquatt

Blimey!! Mine was @ 5000iu (five thousand!)! Perhaps thats where the gyno issue came from!?

Thanks Harry for that PCT advice. Seems like alot of HCG when I was thinking I'd stay away from that stuff forever. Perhaps I could do the same PCT you mentioned but above but just reduce the HCG dosage. Maybe 500ie eod?

I'm wondering whether to do this PCT now (even tho its prob nearer 6 months since I came off my last cycle) & get myself right, or to do as 'More Muscle' suggested re getting on a new cycle right away and just doing PCT properly at the end of that? In other words, will going back on before my natural levels are normal mean that PCT afterwards will be much harder?

Just a bit downhearted really coz not only had I lost my gains I made on the Sust, but have lost much of my natural gains too! So to me, getting back on the gear might give me that confidence boost I need to get back on track once again!

DrSquatt

Hey beequeth,

I must have been writing out my previous post as you wrote yours. Think you just answered my question before I'd even asked it! :-)

Thanks alot. Thats the advice I was hoping for as I feel I want to get back on asap as fed up with feeling lethargic and completely un-agressive in the gym. Not to mention the lack of gains. Going backwards more like :-)

I may try to run a small amount of HCG during cycle and def some nolva every day to keep the nips from growing. Then for PCT maybe do as Harry said but with v low dose HCG. Must flare up this Gyno sh1t.

Thanks all for the input. Its been very helpful.

PS... do I appear that old beequeth? What is it? the way I write? :-):-) I'll put a pic of me as my Avatar now seeing as I havent got one ...

beequeth

LOL - no mate, its just when you said you had taken 5 months and not fully recovered, it reminded me alot of myself in the past - either that or you were a very heavy user :biggrin:

I'm 37 by btw. I notice a lot of the younger kids seem to bounce back quicker.......lucky bas#~rds.

Harry

This is what I would personally do as well TBH, maybe not the politically correct answer, but none the less the option I would go for. I'd also advise you to steer well clear of Deca from now on.

Harry

In that case I would suggest you run HCG @ 250iu E3D throughout the cycle, and I would also suggest that you run and AI Adex is probably best. HCG IMO is an absolute must for recovery and for me it works at small doses throughout the cycle rather than larger doses at the end.

DrSquatt

Good advice, thanks :-) I should be able to get the HCG ok but the lowest Ive had them is about 3000iu. I'll see what my man can do. As for Arimadex, I havent the fogiest where to obtain (of course I'm not asking either!). The guy I see didnt hold much hope for that. Presuming I can get hold of it, what sort of dosage would you suggest?

So far it's looking like this: (feel free to copy/paste & tweak this for me anyone)

weeks 1-10 Sust 250 (250ml-500ml depending on how I get on with it)
weeks 1-10 HCG 250ie every 3rd day
Weeks 1-10 20mg Nolva ed
weeks 1-10 Arimadex @ .....?? (any advice?)

PCT

HCG ??
1-45 Days – Nolva @ 20mg ED
1-30 Days – Clomid @ 100mg ED

Not too sure when to start the PCT and for how long of each. Having used HCG throughout cycle how much should I use post? I am obviously very prone to gyno seeing as I got gyno from 4ml of deca & 1 x sust 250 p/week on last cycle! :-(

Everyones advice is very much appreciated. Thanks :-)

Haha (beequeth) 37 is still young mate! :-) Just think of how much wiser & more experienced we are compared to the young'ns ;-) .... No ok, your'e right ... I'll get me coat :-(