good read - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

**Jimmy** · 28-06-2004, 08:20 PM

Ok, please read and translate for a thick **** that cant read!

Giving credit to SKYEFIRE at Superior Muscle for this one:

Be aware that while there is a lot of truth to saying that “test is test” or that the changing the ester of the hormone doesn’t change it that is NOT entirely true. The properties do change some with the type of ester used. For instance Testosterone Propionate is widely believed (have notice this myself) to cause you to hold less water then an equivalent amount of Testosterone Enanthate, even if the Testosterone Propionate is injected every day and the Testosterone Enanthate twice a week. Another good example is Trenbolone. An experienced body builder might run 100mg every day of the acetate ester as a maximum but will not get away with running 700mg of the enanthate. So obviously the esters do effect how the drug works to some degree.

A couple of things about half-lives that need to be considered for the following discussion. First is that the actually esters themselves do not determine the actually half-life. The actual half-life is determined by the solution as a whole. The type of oil, amount and types of solvents all contribute to the half-life of a product. For instance the half-life of Testosterone Enanthate is said to be 10 days. However, by using a polyhydric alcohol along with benzyl alcohol and a fast absorbing oil I can reduce that to about 8 days. On the other hand I make a solution that has very little benzyl alcohol and a healthy amount of benzyl benzoate with slow absorbing oil I can get 12 days or better. Testosterone base is another good example. Using a polyhydric solution it is absorbed in 12 hours or less, in a slow absorbing solution that can be made as long as 36 hours. That is the difference between injecting 2 to 3 times a day and once a day. So the manufacture (or how you made it) will make up to a 50% difference in what the actual half-life is.

As for how the longer esters should be ran, well that is as always, a matter of debate. This disclaimer if for the rest of the paper if I can call it that: All this is a matter of my opinion and does not constitute medical or any other kind of advice. This is all role-playing anyways. Also while I am on the soapbox please feel free to disagree and debate the information in here BUT PLEASE STATE WHY. By this I mean make an argument on the subject, don’t just state your opinion on the matter. Additionally I like studies and appreciate them but by themselves they do not make an argument. Your interpolation of them does.

First off it would seam that a lot of people are not aware of how to calculate the dosages they are receiving from a long estered steroid. The term “kick in” is often used to describe the build up period of the depot in the body. This build up period is a result of two things, one being the time the actually hormone needs to start working or for the body to react to it. The second is the time and doses needed for the depot to build up to the point ware the amount taken is the same as the amount released from the depot. For the purposes here I am going to say that the steroid “Kicks in” at the point where 75% of your weekly dosage is released to the body from the depot.

The actually calculations are easy. The general form for doing this is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL). MgD is milligrams in depot, MgDL is milligrams in depot left, D is days, and HL is the half-life in days. If your mathematically inclined you can also do in logs but I am lazy and this is close enough. So say you took a shot of 800mgs Testosterone Cypionate, which has a half life of 12 days, on Monday, by Sunday you would have 800*((.5)^(7/12)) or 534mg left in the depot. 800-534=266mg that you actually got that week from that shot. If you took another 800mg shot on the following Monday you would (504+800) *((.5)^(7/12)) or 870 left in the depot at the end of week two. 1304-870=434 that you actually got to use during week two and so on. As you can see the long esters take quit a bit of time to get to the weekly dosage. Please note that the calculation for week two starts out with D being 8 instead of 7, hence the 504 instead of the 534.

That leads us to the proper way to cycle long esters. I can not count the number of times I have seen people suggest a Testosterone Cypionate with Boldenolone Undecylenate (test cyp/EQ) cycle. The problem is that a lot of people recommending this are saying 8 weeks. In my opinion this just doesn’t cut it. It takes 4 weeks for the Testosterone Cypionate to “kick in” and 6 weeks for the Boldenolone Undecylenate. This means that you would actually have only about 3 to 4 weeks at the intended dosage. That is including the natural ramp down of the esters. The below is the results of a quick spreadsheet I did for this. Sense the Boldenolone Undecylenate is the longer ester that is the one I will be working with. This is for 400mg a week for 8 weeks.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot

1 ____400 ______102 ________25.48%
2 ____686 ______175 ________43.68%
3 ____890 ______227 ________56.69%
4 ___1036 ______264 ________65.99%
5 ___1140 ______291 ________72.63%
6 ___1215 ______310 ________77.38%
7 ___1268 ______323 ________80.77%
8 ___1306 ______333 ________83.19%

As you can see you only get above 300mg at week 6. Please note that it take twice as long to ramp up as down so the minimum time it take for the Boldenolone Undecylenate to clear is 3 weeks. Now if we increase the cycle time to 12 weeks thing look a little different.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot
9 ____1333 _____340 ________84.92%
10 ___1353 _____345 ________86.16%
11 ___1367 _____348 ________87.05%
12 ___1377 _____351 ________87.68%

Now we have almost 8 weeks at near the intended dosage. If you include week 13:

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot

13 ___765 ______195________ 48.69%
14 ___570 ______145 ________36.29%
15 ___425 ______108 ________27.04%
16 ___316 _______81 ________20.15%
17 ___236 _______60 ________15.02%
18 ___176 _______45 ________11.19%
19 ___131 _______33 _________8.34%
20 ____98 _______25 _________6.22%

And it might even look better if we ran 16 weeks. Please note that this is the same for any steroid with a half-life of 16.5 days. It does not matter. Swales has also said that

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you should start your PCT. I believe that he means any repressive gear so you would have to include most any gear left in your system if you didn’t finish with testosterone.

The other opinion is to front load the steroid in question.. This is the process of taking a great deal of the steroid during the first week or two in order to avoid having to wait for the build up to occur. As you might guess this is controversial process but it does work. For this example I am going to use the EQ again at the same dosage but this time I am going to front load 1.2 grams of EQ as 300mg ED for 4 days the first week. To make life simple I entered this as a single dose on the spreadsheet but the error this produces is small and not important to this discussion.

______Total _____actual ______%of dosage
______depot ____dosage _____released
Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot

1____ 1200_____ 306 ________76.43%
2 ____1257 _____320 ________80.09%
3 ____1299 _____331 ________82.71%
4 ____1328 _____338 ________84.58%
5 ____1349 _____344 ________85.91%
6 ____1364 _____347 ________86.87%
7 ____1375 _____350 ________87.55%
8 ____1382 _____352 ________88.04%
9 ____1388 _____354 ________88.39%
10 ___1392 _____355 ________88.64%
11 ___1394 _____355 ________88.81%
12 ___1396 _____356 ________88.94%

Now as you can see this is a hell of a difference. No real ramp up time just the time it take for the body to respond. This is also a good way to get the test flu, so be forewarned.

Below is a quick reference of the esters and there respective half-lives.

Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days

**hackskii** · 28-06-2004, 10:21 PM

Good read although I disagree with this
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you should start your PCT.

I feel that at even 200 would be too high and keep you out.
If your natural levels are lets say 49 (average) starting at 200 might be too early.

benjyman · 08-07-2004, 04:08 PM

ok now I'm confused does the half life of a given ester take into account the time taken for the compound to be mobillised (sp?) from the depot and broken down into the target molecule (testosterone), or does it refer to the simple removale of the ester when the substance is already in the blood stream?

If not then to get really pretentious on the dosing of a cycle we would need tables of transition times for various concentrations of solutes and solvents in the human body or a good model. Any body have them to hand?

Cheater2K · 08-07-2004, 04:19 PM

Agree with Hackskiii, got to admit though, they have made it as completcated as they could, lol.

**hackskii** · 08-07-2004, 08:30 PM

I think the thought behind starting at the right time for PCT would go something like this.
Say 500 mgs a week of test enannthate with a half life of like 10-11 days in 10 days lets say the test will be 250 mgs after 20 would be 125 mgs.

We produce about 7 mgs a day or 49 mgs a week.
If you started your pct when your test levels (injections) were at like 250 or even 125 mgs starting your pct too early wont help you recover because there is too much test in your body and your own nuts wont produce.

If you start too late you wont have enough test to keep alot of your gains and you will easily overtrain and have more of a catabolic environment.

So nailing that number (start day) is really important.
I will use my brother for an example.

He did Deca only (no no) for 13 weeks @ 600 and started his PCT two weeks out. Took clomid for 3 weeks, got off the clomid and his nuts kept shrinking for months.

Deconate ester is about 15 days but at 600 in 15 days would be somewhere around 300 in another 15 days it would have been 150 then another 15 days that would have been 75.
Even at 75 might be kindof high to start and that would have been 45 days.
By the time he was off his PCT he still had enough Deca to keep him shut off and when off he was cold turkey.

Deca is kindof one of those drugs that some can use and some can not. It is one of the hardest on the HPTA and can store in the fat. So while you lose some weight from low test levels, some of the deca can still release from the fat and still keep you out.

My brother had to do a second PCT when he found out that his levels were 75. Hey women can have natural test levels of 60 so he was just over a womans numbers

Taking some HCG and nolvadex the second time around he bounced back but really slowly.
5 months out and a 75 test is not good.

So starting your PCT on the chosen day is important and your protocol is important. I feel actually more important than the cycle itself.
But that is just me and this might not even apply to anyone else.

Things to consider, length of cycle, type of AAS, amounts of AAS and your own metabolism, body weight and even age. Many factors too bad it is trial end error.
But it does help to get as much information as possible so you arent cought with your pants down.

Oh, for anyone thinking of doing a DECA only cycle dont!

winger · 08-07-2004, 08:51 PM

I have a buddy that had a hard time rebounding just like me. 6 months after his last shot the balls were shut down and he had very low levels. He did all the tests and 2 months later they put him on hrt. He takes 400mg of upjohn cyp every 3 weeks. 3 days after his shot he gets tested and is around 900 tes level. 3 weeks after his shot he is at 750. Average tes levels are around 300-900 some say 240-700. So what about the 10 day half life? He has gotten tested 3 times and all of the test were very close. I know some of you are thinking that his natural levels are helping to keep the levels up there, maybe so but before the hrt he was at 120 for 8 months. If you take in tes from an outside source your body picks up on that and compensates.
As some of you know I have not done anything in a year. I went to my brothers house 4 weeks ago and took one shot of 100 prop and 250 enenthate tes. Felt great obviously. 3 weeks after my shot my facial hair still grew twice as fast and the sex drive was out the roof. Now at week 4 I feel normal. I suspect that gear lasts longer than they say.

cranky_messiah · 08-07-2004, 11:05 PM

Great reading thanks !

damagedgoods · 09-07-2004, 07:46 AM

Great article - and I have to say I agree with most of what is posted- the only thing I disagree with is the 200mg comment.

28-06-2004, 08:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jimmy UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Forest gym crawley Posts: 4,412	good read Ok, please read and translate for a thick **** that cant read! Giving credit to SKYEFIRE at Superior Muscle for this one: Be aware that while there is a lot of truth to saying that “test is test” or that the changing the ester of the hormone doesn’t change it that is NOT entirely true. The properties do change some with the type of ester used. For instance Testosterone Propionate is widely believed (have notice this myself) to cause you to hold less water then an equivalent amount of Testosterone Enanthate, even if the Testosterone Propionate is injected every day and the Testosterone Enanthate twice a week. Another good example is Trenbolone. An experienced body builder might run 100mg every day of the acetate ester as a maximum but will not get away with running 700mg of the enanthate. So obviously the esters do effect how the drug works to some degree. A couple of things about half-lives that need to be considered for the following discussion. First is that the actually esters themselves do not determine the actually half-life. The actual half-life is determined by the solution as a whole. The type of oil, amount and types of solvents all contribute to the half-life of a product. For instance the half-life of Testosterone Enanthate is said to be 10 days. However, by using a polyhydric alcohol along with benzyl alcohol and a fast absorbing oil I can reduce that to about 8 days. On the other hand I make a solution that has very little benzyl alcohol and a healthy amount of benzyl benzoate with slow absorbing oil I can get 12 days or better. Testosterone base is another good example. Using a polyhydric solution it is absorbed in 12 hours or less, in a slow absorbing solution that can be made as long as 36 hours. That is the difference between injecting 2 to 3 times a day and once a day. So the manufacture (or how you made it) will make up to a 50% difference in what the actual half-life is. As for how the longer esters should be ran, well that is as always, a matter of debate. This disclaimer if for the rest of the paper if I can call it that: All this is a matter of my opinion and does not constitute medical or any other kind of advice. This is all role-playing anyways. Also while I am on the soapbox please feel free to disagree and debate the information in here BUT PLEASE STATE WHY. By this I mean make an argument on the subject, don’t just state your opinion on the matter. Additionally I like studies and appreciate them but by themselves they do not make an argument. Your interpolation of them does. First off it would seam that a lot of people are not aware of how to calculate the dosages they are receiving from a long estered steroid. The term “kick in” is often used to describe the build up period of the depot in the body. This build up period is a result of two things, one being the time the actually hormone needs to start working or for the body to react to it. The second is the time and doses needed for the depot to build up to the point ware the amount taken is the same as the amount released from the depot. For the purposes here I am going to say that the steroid “Kicks in” at the point where 75% of your weekly dosage is released to the body from the depot. The actually calculations are easy. The general form for doing this is MgDL = MgD * (1/2)^(D/HL). MgD is milligrams in depot, MgDL is milligrams in depot left, D is days, and HL is the half-life in days. If your mathematically inclined you can also do in logs but I am lazy and this is close enough. So say you took a shot of 800mgs Testosterone Cypionate, which has a half life of 12 days, on Monday, by Sunday you would have 800((.5)^(7/12)) or 534mg left in the depot. 800-534=266mg that you actually got that week from that shot. If you took another 800mg shot on the following Monday you would (504+800) ((.5)^(7/12)) or 870 left in the depot at the end of week two. 1304-870=434 that you actually got to use during week two and so on. As you can see the long esters take quit a bit of time to get to the weekly dosage. Please note that the calculation for week two starts out with D being 8 instead of 7, hence the 504 instead of the 534. That leads us to the proper way to cycle long esters. I can not count the number of times I have seen people suggest a Testosterone Cypionate with Boldenolone Undecylenate (test cyp/EQ) cycle. The problem is that a lot of people recommending this are saying 8 weeks. In my opinion this just doesn’t cut it. It takes 4 weeks for the Testosterone Cypionate to “kick in” and 6 weeks for the Boldenolone Undecylenate. This means that you would actually have only about 3 to 4 weeks at the intended dosage. That is including the natural ramp down of the esters. The below is the results of a quick spreadsheet I did for this. Sense the Boldenolone Undecylenate is the longer ester that is the one I will be working with. This is for 400mg a week for 8 weeks. ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage ______depot ____dosage _____released Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot 1 ____400 ______102 ________25.48% 2 ____686 ______175 ________43.68% 3 ____890 ______227 ________56.69% 4 ___1036 ______264 ________65.99% 5 ___1140 ______291 ________72.63% 6 ___1215 ______310 ________77.38% 7 ___1268 ______323 ________80.77% 8 ___1306 ______333 ________83.19% As you can see you only get above 300mg at week 6. Please note that it take twice as long to ramp up as down so the minimum time it take for the Boldenolone Undecylenate to clear is 3 weeks. Now if we increase the cycle time to 12 weeks thing look a little different. ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage ______depot ____dosage _____released Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot 9 ____1333 _____340 ________84.92% 10 ___1353 _____345 ________86.16% 11 ___1367 _____348 ________87.05% 12 ___1377 _____351 ________87.68% Now we have almost 8 weeks at near the intended dosage. If you include week 13: ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage ______depot ____dosage _____released Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot 13 ___765 ______195________ 48.69% 14 ___570 ______145 ________36.29% 15 ___425 ______108 ________27.04% 16 ___316 _______81 ________20.15% 17 ___236 _______60 ________15.02% 18 ___176 _______45 ________11.19% 19 ___131 _______33 _________8.34% 20 ____98 _______25 _________6.22% And it might even look better if we ran 16 weeks. Please note that this is the same for any steroid with a half-life of 16.5 days. It does not matter. Swales has also said that quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you should start your PCT. I believe that he means any repressive gear so you would have to include most any gear left in your system if you didn’t finish with testosterone. The other opinion is to front load the steroid in question.. This is the process of taking a great deal of the steroid during the first week or two in order to avoid having to wait for the build up to occur. As you might guess this is controversial process but it does work. For this example I am going to use the EQ again at the same dosage but this time I am going to front load 1.2 grams of EQ as 300mg ED for 4 days the first week. To make life simple I entered this as a single dose on the spreadsheet but the error this produces is small and not important to this discussion. ______Total _____actual ______%of dosage ______depot ____dosage _____released Wks. _in body ___weekly ______from depot 1____ 1200_____ 306 ________76.43% 2 ____1257 _____320 ________80.09% 3 ____1299 _____331 ________82.71% 4 ____1328 _____338 ________84.58% 5 ____1349 _____344 ________85.91% 6 ____1364 _____347 ________86.87% 7 ____1375 _____350 ________87.55% 8 ____1382 _____352 ________88.04% 9 ____1388 _____354 ________88.39% 10 ___1392 _____355 ________88.64% 11 ___1394 _____355 ________88.81% 12 ___1396 _____356 ________88.94% Now as you can see this is a hell of a difference. No real ramp up time just the time it take for the body to respond. This is also a good way to get the test flu, so be forewarned. Below is a quick reference of the esters and there respective half-lives. Formate 1.5 days Acetate 3 days Propionate 4.5 days Butyrate 6 days Valerate 7.5 days Hexanoate 9 days Caproate 9 days Isocaproate 9 days Heptanoate 10.5 days Enanthate 10.5 days Octanoate 12 days Cypionate 12 days Nonanoate 13.5 days Decanoate 15 days Undecanoate 16.5 days __________________ *To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.* 'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

28-06-2004, 10:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,654	Good read although I disagree with this quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you should start your PCT. I feel that at even 200 would be too high and keep you out. If your natural levels are lets say 49 (average) starting at 200 might be too early. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-07-2004, 04:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Cheater2K EFBB Winner Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: North Wales, UK Posts: 5,665	Agree with Hackskiii, got to admit though, they have made it as completcated as they could, lol. __________________ Kind Regards Cheater **************************** ( To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ) (MSN: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. ) (URL: www.comingsoon.com) ****************************

08-07-2004, 08:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,654	I think the thought behind starting at the right time for PCT would go something like this. Say 500 mgs a week of test enannthate with a half life of like 10-11 days in 10 days lets say the test will be 250 mgs after 20 would be 125 mgs. We produce about 7 mgs a day or 49 mgs a week. If you started your pct when your test levels (injections) were at like 250 or even 125 mgs starting your pct too early wont help you recover because there is too much test in your body and your own nuts wont produce. If you start too late you wont have enough test to keep alot of your gains and you will easily overtrain and have more of a catabolic environment. So nailing that number (start day) is really important. I will use my brother for an example. He did Deca only (no no) for 13 weeks @ 600 and started his PCT two weeks out. Took clomid for 3 weeks, got off the clomid and his nuts kept shrinking for months. Deconate ester is about 15 days but at 600 in 15 days would be somewhere around 300 in another 15 days it would have been 150 then another 15 days that would have been 75. Even at 75 might be kindof high to start and that would have been 45 days. By the time he was off his PCT he still had enough Deca to keep him shut off and when off he was cold turkey. Deca is kindof one of those drugs that some can use and some can not. It is one of the hardest on the HPTA and can store in the fat. So while you lose some weight from low test levels, some of the deca can still release from the fat and still keep you out. My brother had to do a second PCT when he found out that his levels were 75. Hey women can have natural test levels of 60 so he was just over a womans numbers Taking some HCG and nolvadex the second time around he bounced back but really slowly. 5 months out and a 75 test is not good. So starting your PCT on the chosen day is important and your protocol is important. I feel actually more important than the cycle itself. But that is just me and this might not even apply to anyone else. Things to consider, length of cycle, type of AAS, amounts of AAS and your own metabolism, body weight and even age. Many factors too bad it is trial end error. But it does help to get as much information as possible so you arent cought with your pants down. Oh, for anyone thinking of doing a DECA only cycle dont! __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-07-2004, 08:51 PM	#6 (permalink)
winger UK-Muscle Male Animal Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 10,324 Blog Entries: 1	I have a buddy that had a hard time rebounding just like me. 6 months after his last shot the balls were shut down and he had very low levels. He did all the tests and 2 months later they put him on hrt. He takes 400mg of upjohn cyp every 3 weeks. 3 days after his shot he gets tested and is around 900 tes level. 3 weeks after his shot he is at 750. Average tes levels are around 300-900 some say 240-700. So what about the 10 day half life? He has gotten tested 3 times and all of the test were very close. I know some of you are thinking that his natural levels are helping to keep the levels up there, maybe so but before the hrt he was at 120 for 8 months. If you take in tes from an outside source your body picks up on that and compensates. As some of you know I have not done anything in a year. I went to my brothers house 4 weeks ago and took one shot of 100 prop and 250 enenthate tes. Felt great obviously. 3 weeks after my shot my facial hair still grew twice as fast and the sex drive was out the roof. Now at week 4 I feel normal. I suspect that gear lasts longer than they say. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-07-2004, 04:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
benjyman Newbie Trainer Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 6	ok now I'm confused does the half life of a given ester take into account the time taken for the compound to be mobillised (sp?) from the depot and broken down into the target molecule (testosterone), or does it refer to the simple removale of the ester when the substance is already in the blood stream? If not then to get really pretentious on the dosing of a cycle we would need tables of transition times for various concentrations of solutes and solvents in the human body or a good model. Any body have them to hand?

08-07-2004, 11:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
cranky_messiah Gym Addict Join Date: May 2004 Location: London Posts: 100	Great reading thanks !

09-07-2004, 07:46 AM	#8 (permalink)
damagedgoods Looking Freaky Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wisbech Posts: 763	Great article - and I have to say I agree with most of what is posted- the only thing I disagree with is the 200mg comment.

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