Troy McClure

coming up to week 10 of the cycle below:

week 1 - 10
750mg test E PW
600mg EQ PW

week 11-14
50mg t-bol ED

Plus hcg t/out cycle. nolva PCT


Its a first time switching from injectables to an oral product for the run up to PCT (have only tried prop for this).

Is it correct to start taking the T-bol on say the 2nd day after last shot??

was going to use 50mg for the 4 week duration and see how it goes as the gains from the EQ and test have been good (Im not greedy and am not expecting or looking for major gains from the t-bol... just concentrating on recovery now.)

BOZWELL

Id run the test upto week 12 and run the tbol as you have layed out
youll be good go into pct after youre last tbol tab
should be a good finninsh to the cycle

Biker

I would run it as you have it, test won't be clear if you stretch it to week 12.

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BOZWELL

4 weeks for test e to clear??
sust maybe..

could be wrong..which is often

hes using hcg anyway so he doent have to wait for the esters to clear before starting pct

DB

Why do you say that??

i leave at least 4 weeks for long ester test before pct.. people get far to confused with half lifes&active lives..

u jab 1000mg test enan one day 1...

10 days late its halved to 500mg active test
10 later 250mg etc

thats a rough figure everyones body reacts totally different so i say last 4 weeks should always be fast esters.. just imo.. i prefer to play it safe

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Magic Torch

I think what he means is that he doesn't have to wait for the esters to clear before using HCG....

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Biker

As I have posted and said before, PCT is dose dependent (some day I'm sure some people will listen) ;)


PCT

Clomid (clomiphene Citrate)


What is it?

Classification: Synthetic oestrogen/hpta stimulator (strong gonadotropin stimulator/mild anti-oestrogen)

Clomid is clinically administered to assist women with ovulation. It's used by bodybuilders to assist with the re-start of natural testosterone production post anabolic steroid cycles. Clomid increases activity in the hypothalamus-pituary-gonadol axis by stinulating the release of more gondotropin from the pituary gland this causes a higher level of Luteinizin hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) which signals the testes leydig cells which then in turn manufature more testosterone and sperm. Another major factor is it's anti-oestrogen ability (similar to but weaker than nolva) this is an important time for blocking oestrogen from the receptors in the body as oestogen is often rampant post cycle.

How do I use it?

I have for a while now believed that the Clomid treatment recommended on many websites and books is in fact wrong and starts of too soon to be fully effective - this is backed up by speaking to several people that have had recovery problems but have found that a second run of clomid returns them to normal.

I don’t believe there’s any point in commencing clomid treatment until your blood levels of active steroid are 10mg or less every day (normal and natural average is about 7 or 8mg/day). Taken that most will agree that natural test production can not restart while non natural test in your blood exceeds the amount manufactured by your natural test production so you must wait until your androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals to your test production. Some people appear to believe that taking clomid during a cycle stops their test production from shutting down

Now the figures I use throughout this document can be argued perhaps someone else believes the halflife of said compound is a day or two different from what I’ve based my calculations on, and if that’s the case the day for starting clomid treatment may be different by a day or so.

Now many sites will tell you 21 days post sustanon cycle before commencing clomid what no one ever mentions is that it's dose dependant; the time you are due to commence Clomid depends on the dose of the drug used, for example if I take 1 shot of 250mg of sustanon I reach Clomid start time in 9 days if I take 1 shot of 500mg of sustanon it’s in fact closer to day 15!

So if we assume the average user is taking 2 shots of 250mg a week it also builds up over a period of time to reach peak levels so very short cycles of sustanon (less than 3 weeks and not a likely scenario) will have a shorter period to wait post cycle (as seen in the 1 week 1 shot example above) in reality this entire section assumes that all the longer esters will be used in cycles of greater than three weeks.

So if I just take a 500mg of sustanon taken 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday for more than 3 weeks as an example we can see the following: clomid should be started on day 19 or 20 after the last shot.

If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence.

Now I’m not going to take it any further than that dose with sustanon as to be honest it’s by far the worst for me to calculate as it’s comprised of 4 different esters (halflives) testosterone isocaproate 60mg, testosterone decanoate 100mg, testosterone propionate 30 mg, testosterone phenylpropionate 60mg. So from this point on I’m going to talk about a single ester test, which actually proves the point much better anyhow, I will list clomid treatment for a number of different compounds at the end of this document.

So on to my old friend and favourite test; Testosterone entantate (although if you’re Iranian you might want to add a few more letters to that ester name): now it’s a single ester for which my poor brain is thankful and it has a halflife of approximately 7 days.

So if 500mg of entantate is taken per week 250mg Monday and 250mg Thursday clomid should be started on day 20 or 21 after the last shot and not the usually recommended 14 days!

If the common Mon/wed/fri approach to sustanon is taken (750mg a week) it is in fact 23 - 24 days post last injection before clomid therapy should commence.

Starting to see how it’s dose dependant? Starting to wonder why no one has ever mentioned it before? I know I am!

So if we crank it up to a higher dose will this pattern continue? - lets try as an example 1000mg a week taken as 500mg Monday and 500mg Thursday. The result?…. A whopping 27 - 28 days before clomid treatment, ever done 1g of test entantate a week and felt that you didn’t fully recover after PCT well following the direction on many boards you would have started your PCT 14 days post cycle and finished at day 35 in reality you were finishing just one week after you should have started hence you didn’t fully recover!

Now we all know some people go mega doses so just for a laugh I’m going to do it as 250mg ED or 1750mg a week: 32-33 days before clomid treatment over one month! So many of these people will be back on their next cycle without even having recovered from the previous one!

Now the clomid dose suggested by most is: 300mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7-10 days; followed by 50mg for 7-10 days. First thing I’m going to say is that I’m not convinced that a 300mg day 1 dosage is essential but it won’t do any harm so I leave that choice up to you. Now to be honest for those in their mid 30s and older I believe that a longer duration is a better method of recovery.

So I suggest the following dosage regime:

Age < 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 7 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days.

Age > 35: 150mg on day 1; then 100mg for the next 14 days; followed by 50mg for 14 days.

The one for older men will to many of you appear excessive and too long, but at least 50% of the older men that I talk to feel they don’t fully recover with normal clomid treatment and running it slightly longer has appeared to cure the problem for them.

If taking more than 1 pill per day there is not need to split up doses during the day as it has a halflife of about 4 days.

So lets look at a range of products and give you some times to start clomid, most of the short life oral steroids are not effected enough by this to warrant calculating dose dependant changes as it would be a difference in hours and the best rule of thumb with them is start clomid the day after you finish:

Orals
Anadrol / A-50s 8 hours (next day)
Anavar 8 hours (next day)
Dianabol 8 hours (next day)
Winstrol 10 hours (next day)

Injectibles
Deca 400mg[1] a week taken split into two shots 24-25 days
EQ 400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days
Trenbolone
37.5mg per day 3-4 days
75mg per day 5-6 days
Primobolan
400mg [1] a week taken split into two shots 17-18 days
Sustanon[2]
500mg a week taken split into two shots 19-20 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days
Test Cypionate 8
500mg a week taken split into two shots 23-24 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 27-28 days
1000mg a week taken split into two shots 31-32 days
Test Enanthate
500mg a week taken split into two shots 20-21 days
750mg a week taken split into three shots 23-24 days
1000mg a week taken split into two shots 27 - 28 days
Test Propionate
50mg ED 4-5 days
100mg ED 6-7 days
200mg ED 8-9 days
Test Suspension 8 hours (next day as the orals are)


[1] only one dose example given here as it’s rare for any other dose to be used and if it is it tends to not be largely different - normally no more than 100mg one way or the other - you could add or subtract 1 or 2 days from PCT start date if you opt for a slightly different dose.

[2] Damn horrid hard to calculate from 4 ester nonsense!

* please note all calculations were made using http://powerboard.rockarfett.com/roidcalc/index.html but using the halflives listed in this book and not necessarily the ones they provide. The main reason for this was ease of calculations, the ‘roidcalc’ take into consideration things such as ester weight – 250mg of a steroid which has an ester attached is not 250mg of steroid as some of that weight is the ester it’s self.

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Biker

That is my own thoughts ^^^, not a copy and paste of someone elses work.

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Biker

you are wrong, and how does using HCG mean you don't have to wait until the steroids clear before starting PCT????

you really do talk nonsense mate.

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BOZWELL

hcg will fire youll balls up no matter what aas are in the system so this will have them ready for clomid/nolva ai treatment no need to wait at at all
nonsense ..I think not
my pct..approved by my doc
week 1-3 hcg@500-1000ius eod
week 1-6 nolva 20mg ed
starting one week after long ester and the day after short esters or orals

Biker

lmfao... don't make yourself even more silly by trying to prove you're right!

Most doctors haven't got a clue about PCT for steroids mate.

Your body will not recover while it has excess testosterone from an external source, period, end of.

Now stop making a fool out of your self by arguing. Your advice earlier in this thread was to start PCT 2 weeks after finishing... doesn't appear to be the same now....

And that is not good PCT your using... probably gives you a false sense of recovery that keeps you feeling good before you start your next cycle. SO you use that same protocul no matter what product you've used in your cycle?

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Biker

I've given a lengthy explanation as to why my method works, explain yours.

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Biker

particularly I would love to know how this works?

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BOZWELL

most docs..Ive got lucky ..mines a woman and very good believe it or not
shes very clued up
I said start pct after last tab not 2 weeks later
the only thing that differs in my pct is the amount of hcg used
hcg will have youre balls up and running and keep test level up while esters clear and allow nolva/clomid to work

robdog

Good posts Biker mate. Good to see the old man still knows his stuff;)

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