Jud6572

What are our thoughts on tapering guys? I've seen a lot of sites that have good reputations and they seem to taper all their cycles, just wondering!

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Great White

I dont belive in it when it comes to test, EQ, etc.

I belive better results are obtained when Blood levels are kept consistant (Injecting the same time(ish) or at least the same day every week, and when it comes to sust and test, at least twice a week, if not 3 weeks.

Paul

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hackskii

I dont taper myself.

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Scott


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Greyphantom

Tapering is an old school thought... it was believed that if you taper then your own production of test would slowly come back... however we now know this isnt true... as the body only produces 4-11mg of test a day any more than this then your body wont start its own production... so to taper you must drop it down to below this and that is really not practical or easy... thus it is better to just run the cycle full strength and then start pct when applicable... even bridging can prolong recovery...

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big pete

taper short acting meds, prop,tren, orals etc. but the ester on long acting meds does it for you.

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Greyphantom

Wow... first time I am in disagreement with BP... a sad day for us all...lol...

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Biker

agreed

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Jud6572

cheers guys you do a lot of cycles like this don't you!

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big pete

ha ha GP, id have agreed with you, til biker corrected me about 6 months ago. now after he explained it, it makes complete sense.

due to short esters, blood levels drop very quickly. just by halving the dose for a few days before PCT you can slow the decline. thus helping

very shortened, but the jist is there

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Greyphantom

Hmmm I'm sensing the gist but may need more convincing... I mean if you inject 100mg of prop then even though its fast acting you will still have 50mg after 3 days... then 25 and the 12.5... so if you take.... wait a minute think I am seeing something here... but may need Biker to explain it better...

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hackskii

Well, I may be wrong here but.
I have read that you produce about 7 mgs of test a day or 49 mgs a week.
I have also read that even as low as 100 mgs a week of test will shut down the HPTA.
So unless your levels are at base values or less starting your PCT is pointless.
I dont see a need to taper as anything over base just holds you back anyway. I myself would rather go out with a bang.

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Greyphantom

Hacksii its 4-11mg... it varies per person.. but the rest is in line with what I am thinking but if take say 100mg of prop then you could start pct in a week or so as the levels would drop to 12.5ish in 9 days ish...

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Jimmy

I found this article on another forum by a guy calle andy 13........

Here is a useful link that tie in well also....

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/sh...s=&threadid=46



A comprehensive look at modern AAS cycling by ANDY 13
If you are planning a 10 week cycle, the goal is to be at highest blood concentrations for as many of the 10 weeks as possible.

If you use a long ester such as deca at xmg/week, it will take you 4-5 weeks to build up to max blood concentrations possible for xmg/week. So half of your cycle is not wasted, but you are not maximizing efficiency.

When coming off a cycle, the waiting period before clomid therapy begins will vary depending on the type and dose of the AAS. If you ran 500mg/week of deca for 10 weeks, a month after your last shot, you will still have around 200mg of esterified deca in your system. This is more than enough to prevent recovery. This is the reason why recovery is more difficult with a deca (or another long acting ester).

Let's calculate the amount accumulated in the body after 6 weeks of 500mg/deca. Let's say you inject it once a week and we'll give it a 1.5 week half life. Note that injection frequency makes a huge difference in blood concentration stability but no difference in amount of esterified in the system

E (greek letter "sigma") 500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) from n=0 to n=6. So after 6 weeks, about 1300mg of esterified nandrolone remain in the body.

Now lets see how long, after the initial injection, it takes to reduce to a small enough amount that permits recovery.

1300*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) After 3 weeks, 325 mg of esterified remain

after 6 weeks, 81 mg of esterified remain.

After 8 weeks, 32mg of esterified remain.


Most guys go with "time on=time off." This will not work with long esters as I have demonstrated above. For at least a month after your last shot you are in what I call a "time in-effiency" period where you are no longer reaping the benefits of you AAS but you are not recovering either. The goal of the modern cycle is to minimize this wasted time.

The key components are:
1) Front end loading this cuts down on wasted time in the beginning of your cycle waiting for the doses to reach full theraputic levels. This concept has been used before but (as far as I know) I was the first one to quantify it mathmatically. Zyg has taken the math one step further with a graph showing, visually, the importance. Graph of eq loading

The use of orals in the beginning of a cycle is a popular component of a cycle. While I don't feel it is a nessecity, it too is a (different) type of front end load. For the advnaced BBer, dbol should be taken in the beginning of a cycle as well as loading the injectables since the anabolic response from dbol is alleged to be by a different mechanism than most injectables. If one had to chose between a dbol load and and injectable load, in most cases, the injectable load should be prefered over the dbol load.

2) Injection frequency This is crucial to obtaining even blood concentrations of androgens. Ideally, the more often injected, the better. An acceptable rule of thumb is "inject at half of the half life." For instance, if the half life of a steroid is 7 days, this should be injected at least twice weekly. For cycles that involve multiple injectables, the injections should be fractioned out and divided up based on the injectable with the shortest half life. For instance, if you were doing a test propionate and deca cycle, the old school way to do it would be to inject the prop EOD and the deca once a week. Both compounds should not be viewed as separate, but together with total androgen concentration taken into consideration. If you injected the deca only once a week, probably along with one of the propionate injections, that day will have a much larger spike on total blood androgen concentrations. Instead, the deca should be split up and taken with the propionate injections, EOD. This way there is no one day of the week that has a "spike" and even blood concentrations are maintained throughout the week.

3) Ending the cycle Switching to shorter esters toward the end of a cycle makes perfect sence however not too many guys incorporate this practice- perhaps because of the lack of variety of drugs. The modern cycle should include replacing long ester injectables with shorter ones so that recovery time is made more efficient. The necesity of switching to shorter esters toward the end of a cycle depends on the type of drugs used. Longer esters such as deca and eq should be replaced with shorter acting versions of these compounds no later than four weeks before the end of a cycle. Medium length esters such as t-enanthate and cypionate should be replaced no later than three weeks before the end of a cycle. A couple examples of appropriate replacements are: trenbolone acetate and testosterone propionate. There is no need to "load" these compounds in the middle of a cycle since 1) they are already "fast acting" and 2) blood androgen concentrations are already high.

4) Recovery With the replacement of the faster acting injectables toward the end of a cycle, the "wasted" time between the end of a cycle and beginning of clomid therapy is reduced. For instance, if 100mg TA is used ED, clomid therapy may begin in as little as 5 days after the last shot. This tremendously impoves time efficiency. Clomid therapy usually last for four weeks. An excellent thread posted by The Iron Game describes this in further detail Clomid FAQ's .

When the above recomendations are made, your cycle itself is made much more efficient and if recovery time is made more efficient as well, time "off" AAS may very well be reduced so that the overall efficiency of AAS use over time is tremendously improved.


Andy

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Biker

but if you use steroids like EQ, deca, test enanth etc. you are tapering or should I say the drug is, say enanth Day 1:500mg day 8: 250mg day 16: 125mg etc. that's what the ester does.... so say prop, day 1:500mg day 3: 250mg day 6: 125mg - of course the shorter ester falls of much more quickly and IMHO leaves you much more likely to crash - as you haven't the gradual decline in blood levels which allow the body to adapt to the lower test levels in a more gentle way. but as I've said before just 2p's worth.

it's generally dismissed as "old school" and out of date and I agree it is with longer esters as there is no need because it does it by it's self.

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Jimmy

I know what you mean biker, long acting esters have always in my mind been easier to work with as they leave your system in their own slight taper as one discontinues use...as long as the same doses are used every week right up to the end.

I did find the article went a little over my head but I did find the info on deconate esters useful in respects of "wasted time"

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