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Understanding PCT

This is not a copy and paste.

PCT, what does it mean?
Post Cycle Therapy.

What does it do?
It returns your Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testicular, Axis (HPTA) back to producing its own endogenous testosterone production.

How long does it last?
Good question but in my opinion the normal 21 to 30 days protocol is too short unless suppression of the HPTA is minor.

Ok, you produce about 7 mg of testosterone a day or around 49 mg a week on average, some more, some less (usually older guys).
So, you go on a cycle of lets say 500mg of testosterone a week or about 10 times your natural production. The body sees this as too much testosterone and will lower production of testosterone to try to maintain homeostasis (balance). The body loves homeostasis.
Testosterone in a man gets converted into two other hormones; one of those hormones is DHT (dihydrotestosterone) this is done by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductace. DHT is actually about 3-5 times more androgenic than testosterone.
The other hormone it gets converted to is estradiol (E2), this is a strong estrogen but from now on we will just refer to it as estrogen, even though there are 3 different kinds of estrogen. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by another enzyme called aromatase. The conversion is called aromatization.

Ok, the body will convert more testosterone into estrogen probably to try and maintain homeostasis, so the more test, the more estrogen. For most this estrogen is not a problem. But for some it will be a problem and this extra estrogen can give side effects like gynecomastia (gyno) or water retention, but one big problem is estrogens suppressive effects on Luteinizing Hormone or (LH) LH is what the pituitary gland sends as a chemical hormone to the Leydig cells in the testicles where the testicles will product testosterone. Estrogen is probably 100-200 times as suppressive as testosterone.
So when LH production stops (exogenous testosterone will do this too) the testicles will stop producing and like anything not being used will atrophy.
What does this mean?
You will get some small balls, no kidding mine have been the size of almonds without the shell.

OK, so you come off a cycle, the exogenous testosterone is tapering down and after about a couple of weeks (this is the clearance time for testosterone cypionate and enanthate) you end up with low levels of testosterone as your endogenous production has long been stopped. Now here where the problem starts. You potentially have the testosterone of a woman, and high estrogen from all that aromatization.
This can be a recipe for disaster, why? Because men need test to feel normal and not only that hard earned muscle will be eaten up by being in a catabolic environment, not to mention there is still going to be some suppression because of elevated estrogen.
I have seen big strong men carry on like crying women in this state; it is very bad, sex drive is zero, no energy, emotional, insecure, the list is long.

So, what can you do?
First of all in my opinion bringing the nuts back online is very important, the most important. This is done with the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)
It basically is pregnant woman’s urine. HCG mimics LH and as we learned above that LH is the chemical hormone that stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. HCG is very strong and many times stronger than the amount of LH that the pituitary puts out.
The typical dose is anywhere around 350iu to as much as 2500iu and even in some cases more but I don’t recommend this. Best advice is to use as little as possible to achieve success at bringing the nuts back to life from their nice little vacation.
The half life of HCG is around 3 days or so, so Subcutaneous (Sub-Q) shots or Intramuscular Shots (IM) are done about Every Other Day (EOD or Every 3 Days (E3D).
If you use too much for too long desentization of the Leydig cells can happen and this is not good.
One other thing is HCG aromatizes pretty heavily. So an anti estrogen is always recommended if you shoot more than 500iu and even that if you are gyno prone would be a good idea to add an anti E.
HCG comes in tow bottles or vials and one is powder and the other is a solvent or bacteriostatic water, the water gets added to the powder and this is called reconstitution. Once HCG is mixed it must be refrigerated. In bacteriostatic water it will last around a month.

Now next we want to block the hypothalamus and pituitary gland from that excess estrogen as that in itself is suppressive.
How is this done? With a drug called Clomiphene citrate (clomid). This is really a drug to help women ovulate but it acts as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM).
It occupy’s the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary and blocks estrogens exertion on those glands. It’s like putting a key in a lock but not turning the key. It is just occupying that space without really doing anything.
Clomid in my opinion works better than another SERM that many people use called Nolvadex. Both pretty much do the same thing but together I have found to be far superior than using any of them by themselves.
Both clomid and nolva are in pill form as well as liquid form.
What these do is block estrogen. The body sees this as it is low in testosterone and estrogens suppressive effects are not there as the receptors are blocked. So it see’s this as low testosterone and low estrogen so the body turns on the hypothalamus to produce Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) which in turn tells the pituitary gland to produce LH and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). FSH is another hormone that stimulates the Sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm.

Ok, so lets put this all together.
There are a couple of ways you can do this.
First you can take HCG in small amounts during the cycle to maintain testicular function or you can take it after the cycle is finished to start your PCT.
Either way is fine but if the cycle is very long then long use of HCG can be a problem due to the possibility of desentization of the Leydig cells.
That’s pretty much the last thing you want to do as you want your own LH production to keep the testicles producing test.

So, what you can do is wait about 2 weeks for the testosterone to clear your system or be around base levels of normal producing test and start your HCG, clomid and nolvadex all at the same time.
You don’t have to worry about the aromatization issue because both clomid and nolvadex are anti-estrogens or act as anti-estrogens in the body.
By the way nolvadex is used in estrogen sensitive cancer tissues like in treating breast cancer.

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH.
Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.

Depending on the type of gear, length of time on, amount of gear, all play in this factor of recovery, not to mention the genetic factors involved in shutdown.
I shutdown very hard and I notice atrophy in as little as 3 weeks.

If anyone has any questions or wants to fill in some spaces just let me know.
Cheers.
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Old 28-10-2006, 02:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Nice Post Hackskii, just wondering what mark is 500iu on a Insulin syringe, its a 1ml syringe, ive got 6 vials of HCG at 1500iu each and 6 bac water 1ml
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Old 28-10-2006, 03:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Nice Post Hackskii, just wondering what mark is 500iu on a Insulin syringe, its a 1ml syringe, ive got 6 vials of HCG at 1500iu each and 6 bac water 1ml
Are you on a cycle or doing a PCT?

You can do it easy by just adding the solution into the powder then injecting Sub-Q, EOD shots should be fine.
If you dont really shutdown hard then you will need less.
If you are shutdown hard then it might take double that
For me that would not cut it unless the cycle was short and not so supressive (gear).
Everyone is diffrent.
I can share how much I take but that is just me.
Some much less.......Everything....
But full recovery is where it is at.

Shorter simple cycles you can get away with just no PCT.

Many factors here
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Old 28-10-2006, 05:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
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great post hacks, my PCT looks like this: HCG 1500ius e3d (6 shots)
nolva 40mg ed week 1 & 2
nolva 20mg ed week 3,4 & 5
vitamin E 1000ius ed while on HCG
i know i havnt included clomid but do u think this would be sufficient after a 10 week cycle of test E, NPP (last 6 weeks) & TBol (last 3 weeks)?
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Old 28-10-2006, 06:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Depends on if full testicular function is achieved and the nolva by itself is enough to jumpstart the hypothalamus and pituitary.
Id be willing to bet NPP is pretty supressive.

Did you use HCG during?
Did you use any AI during?
Do you have any atrophy right now?
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Old 29-10-2006, 03:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hackskii View Post
Depends on if full testicular function is achieved and the nolva by itself is enough to jumpstart the hypothalamus and pituitary.
Id be willing to bet NPP is pretty supressive (100mg eod).

Did you use HCG during? no
Did you use any AI during? no, just nolva
Do you have any atrophy right now? yes but not severe
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Old 29-10-2006, 05:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I would still add the clomid IMO.
That should be enough HCG but to be honest that isnt even 10,000 in total.
See if you can get a couple more amps to be on the safe side.

At least purchase them wheter or not you will use them.
I found my very first time on HCG worked probably the best.

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Oh my F***ing God, I am hoping to start on a course of D-Bol in the near future once I have found a reliable source, but I never realised the counter measures and counter, counter measures for the oestrogen build up were so involved!!!!

Great post Scott, a bit of an eye opener!!!

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Old 10-08-2007, 10:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broady View Post
Oh my F***ing God, I am hoping to start on a course of D-Bol in the near future once I have found a reliable source, but I never realised the counter measures and counter, counter measures for the oestrogen build up were so involved!!!!

Great post Scott, a bit of an eye opener!!!
Better to find out the easy way than the hard way like I had to....
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Old 18-08-2007, 09:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Dear all, sorry for crashing in on this link but its kinda related. I've done about 5 different cycles using different gear over the last few years and the one thing really affects me is the crash at the end of the cycle, for me its like a kind of depression and insecurity, almost a paranoid feling. It lasts about 3 - 4 weeks but is a killer, after the last cycle I used Clomid and HCG and this really helped. I'm planning a cycle for later in the year and I wondered if you guys could help me design it ?. Diets good at the mo and Im in decent shape just below 13 stone - I want to stick another 1/2 stone on if poss.
For the cycle i want to use Anavar ( helps me get through the lactic build up ) and a mass builder which I'm looking for advice on plse? Also I want to combine HCG in the cycle as I'm hearing good reports from others and I think it may help stave off my CRASH. I also would like some help with the PCT as obviously I must be very suseptable to the affects of introducing test. So, In a nust shell , can any help me design a cycle using the gear mentioned above and design a PCT cycle for someone who is very prone to the crash afterwards

Kind Regards
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Old 18-08-2007, 04:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray View Post
Dear all, sorry for crashing in on this link but its kinda related. I've done about 5 different cycles using different gear over the last few years and the one thing really affects me is the crash at the end of the cycle, for me its like a kind of depression and insecurity, almost a paranoid feling. It lasts about 3 - 4 weeks but is a killer, after the last cycle I used Clomid and HCG and this really helped. I'm planning a cycle for later in the year and I wondered if you guys could help me design it ?. Diets good at the mo and Im in decent shape just below 13 stone - I want to stick another 1/2 stone on if poss.
For the cycle i want to use Anavar ( helps me get through the lactic build up ) and a mass builder which I'm looking for advice on plse? Also I want to combine HCG in the cycle as I'm hearing good reports from others and I think it may help stave off my CRASH. I also would like some help with the PCT as obviously I must be very suseptable to the affects of introducing test. So, In a nust shell , can any help me design a cycle using the gear mentioned above and design a PCT cycle for someone who is very prone to the crash afterwards

Kind Regards
The Gray Man.
That would be pretty easy to design a cycle for you considering you crash.
Totally HCG will help you avoid a crash but also the type of gears you select.

Can you give me an example of the compounds that you used last cycle and the amounts and timmings?
Lenght of cycle too and your PCT.

Wont be hard to see the red flags if you post that up for us.
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Old 19-08-2007, 07:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Cheers, well in reverse order.
The last cycle was a 3 week week one and tbh i wanted some gains for the beach and was using up some gear in the cupboard. wk1 10mg dbol + 10mg avar, wk 2 20mg dbol + 20mg avar, wk3 10mg dbol 10mg avar PCT was 1tab/day clomid for 1 week and 2 shots od HCG 2000iu each shot ( 1 week apart ). The cycle before that was boldenone and Primo ( I think about 2ml per week of each, started high and then tapered off ) I wrote it all down and hid the paperwork from prying eyes and now I cant find it !! Hey ho the PCT for this was just nolvadex. the one before this was avar and deca, went up to about 2 tabs of avar/day and 2ml of deca per week for about 6 weeks - again just did nolvadex at the end of this - sorry its vague but I'm lost without mi training log.
Hope this helps ??
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Old 20-08-2007, 06:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Wow, kind of surprised you crashed with such modest gear use.

Your PCT was not long enough either.

I bet you could avoid most of the problem with running a maintenance dose of HCG during the cycle.
This will help your testicles to keep and maintain testicular function.
This will make transitition to PCT a snap.
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Old 20-08-2007, 09:04 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

well, me too !
could it be possible that I'm very prone to this? I mean my nads shrunk to the size of ...errrr..give in , lets just say they went a lot smaller. And like you say I don't exactly go daft with the gear. Any advice on dosage and frequency of HCG during a 6 week cycle ? (or do you need to know the details?)
Thanks
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Old 20-08-2007, 09:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Understanding PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray View Post
well, me too !
could it be possible that I'm very prone to this? I mean my nads shrunk to the size of ...errrr..give in , lets just say they went a lot smaller. And like you say I don't exactly go daft with the gear. Any advice on dosage and frequency of HCG during a 6 week cycle ? (or do you need to know the details?)
Thanks
Grayman.
Well, from personal experiance I have found that if one were to try to bring the nuts back to life (from the dead) it takes more agressive usage of HCG.

But to keep and maintain full testicular function and size, 500iu every 3 days would more than enough to do the job, even twice a week would be fine.

I notice that when I use an AI like arimidex, it talkes longer for atrophy.

But when they are small like smashed grapes like I get, it takes some aggressive use.
Not only that but timing to start your PCT should be about when the levels hit base normal values.

Sadly I suffer probably the worst with this, some gear is worse than othes, I have found tren and deca in my experiance to be the worse supressors.

So, as of late, I dont use those compounds anymore purely for recovery reasons.
And if I did it would be in the very beginning in the cycle as to let what ever they do get out of my system.
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