Understanding PCT - Page 2 - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

Gray · 02-09-2007, 02:38 PM

Brill thanks for the advice, sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been away. I've now got a better understanding of PCT's in general and what might be better for me being sensitive and all. Right, now here's the thing I want to put together a cycle and I want to combine the following elements :-
1.Anavar ( for strength )
2.Sustanon ( or a n other mass builder ?? )
3.HGH. ( enhancing the growth from 2 above )
I'll come back to the finer details of the PCT in later posts. I want your opinion on the choice of gear and some suggestions on dosages - I was thinking of a 6 week cycle ( 10 max )
I've used var and sus before with no probs but have never tried HGH, what do you know about it and combining it with gear ?? ( dosages, brands etc? )

Cheers
The Grey man.

**hackskii** · 03-09-2007, 10:29 PM

Nice cycle actually.
500 sust, 75 var or 50 if you so desire, then 2iu HGH a day and be on the lookout for stiff joints.

Start PCT 3-4 weeks from last sust jab.

Gray · 04-09-2007, 07:55 PM

Great stuff cheers,

I was thinking of doing 250mg of sus per week and combine it with 200mg of deca per week, would this be of benefit or just over complicated ?

The Gray Man

**hackskii** · 04-09-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gray

Great stuff cheers,

I was thinking of doing 250mg of sus per week and combine it with 200mg of deca per week, would this be of benefit or just over complicated ?

The Gray Man

That is fine but first cycle in my opinion should be simple with one compound so you can see how it all goes.
Test based cycles you cant go wrong with.

Gray · 05-09-2007, 08:15 PM

Cheers again

Its not my first cycle though, I've done about 5 previous and had decent results with a sus and dec stack.

I've nearly finished designing the cycle, just got a bit more reading up to do and then I'd like to post it up for your opinion if possible. no ned to reply, I'll post the cycle up when done

Mega cheers for all your help.

The Gray man

Gray · 06-09-2007, 07:34 PM

Hi Hackskii

well, here's my draft cycle - can you please have a look at for me and let me know any changes or concerns.

wk1: 50mg Var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed.
Wk2: 75mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed.
wk3: 75mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed, hcg 5000iu/wk, HGH 2iu ed, clem 3-4 tabs ed 0.2mg.
wk4:75mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed, hcg 5000iu/wk, HGH 2iu ed, clem 3-4 tabs ed 0.2mg.
wk5:75mg var, 200mg deca/wk,250mg sust/wk, 1nolv ed, HGH 2iu ed, clem 3-4 tabs ed 0.2mg.
wk6:50mg var, 200mg deca/wk, 250mg sust/wk, 1 nolv ed.
PCT:
wk7: hcg 5000iu /wk, Arimidex 0.5 -1mg eod.
wk8: hcg 5000iu/wk, Arimidex 0.5 - 1mg eod.
wk9:Clomid 50-100mg ed
wk10:Clomid 50-100mg ed

I'm unsure whether i should taper the gear down in wks 5 & 6 ??
Also unsure if the PCT looks ok ???

Cheers
The Gray Man.

**hackskii** · 06-09-2007, 11:31 PM

A few things, you can keep the anavar at the same amount all the way through and even up to PCT, or while you wait for clearance times of the deca and sust, it wont make you any more shut down and what little it would wont really matter.

You need to start PCT 3 weeks from last jab and if you feel there are androgens present still you can wait another week.

If it was me I would run the HCG @ 500iu twice a week and keep an eye on the nuts, you can run the HCG while you are waiting for your gear to clear as well, it wont do anything in regards to shutdown but only bring the testicles to have full testicular function, which is what you want otherwise recovery will be seriously compromised.
Prior to starting your PCT you should have no issues with libido.

You can run the clen during PCT to help avoid catabolism but I was never sold on the idea the clen in humans is anti-catabolic, animals yes, humans no.

You can run Adex while waiting to start PCT and if it was me I would run it throughout.
Estrogen is very suppressive but necessary for gains among other things.

I would add nolva to the clomid and 2 weeks of clomid wont do it for recovery, I would run the clomid for no less than 3 weeks and 4 if you can.
Nova is simple @ 20mg a day for 30 or even more days.
Clomid should be run at 100mg a day.

Gray · 07-09-2007, 09:06 PM

Phew ! back to the drawing board as they say ! - watch this space for revised

cheers
The Gray man

Gray · 11-09-2007, 08:12 PM

Hi Hackskii

couple of questions:-

would you say take nothing for 3 weeks after the last jab and then start the PCT ?

I incorporated the Clen with the HGH mid cycle as I've read the anti cat helps - the article suggested T3 as another compound that can be used, would that be better ?

I thought you had to use the HCG in short bursts so as not to permanently affect the permanent production of gonatropins? that's why i put 2 weeks in the middle and 2 weeks at the end.

cheers
The Gray man

Gray · 11-09-2007, 08:14 PM

Also , i'm thinking of dropping the deca as well .

**hackskii** · 11-09-2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gray

Hi Hackskii

couple of questions:-

would you say take nothing for 3 weeks after the last jab and then start the PCT ?

I incorporated the Clen with the HGH mid cycle as I've read the anti cat helps - the article suggested T3 as another compound that can be used, would that be better ?

I thought you had to use the HCG in short bursts so as not to permanently affect the permanent production of gonatropins? that's why i put 2 weeks in the middle and 2 weeks at the end.

cheers
The Gray man

Well, small doses to nuts that are already functioning would keep them functioning.
T3 can be taken with gear.
I myself would run low dose HCG throughout.

Sust and deca would be 3 weeks before start time of PCT last jab.

rightyho · 02-10-2007, 04:29 PM

Hackskii, I'll be looking at serious PCT after my remaining competitions.

Can you suggest some protocol in respect of what I've been using:

Mainly 225mg tren acetate / week taken as 75mg Mon, Wed, Fri.
Also proviron run at 100mg/day for the two weeks leading up to each show.
And 1 Aromasin tab EOD for the two weeks leading up to each show.

GH was stopped 3 weeks ago and won't be restarted because the shows are too close together back-to-back to escape water retention.

T3 at 25mcg/day and T4 at 200mcg/day has been pretty constant for 5 weeks now.

Post-shows, I'll be cycling down the thyroid meds over 2 weeks.

I have the option to either go into PCT immediately after this, or try to caputalise on a rebound effect from months of dieting by swopping over to a testosterone ester - probably enanthate or propionate.

Intended dose of that is 500mg / week.

So, do I go into PCT from tren, or after say 4 to 6 weeks of test?

What about the aromasin? Dropping it out after the shows will probably cause a heavy estrogen rebound which, coupled with the HCG, won't be a pretty sight. I strongly suspect I'll need to keep it in through PCT and a few weeks out the other side. What do you think?

Post show meds available:

Test enanthate
Test prop
T3
T4
Aromasin
GH
HCG
Clomid
Nolvadex
Clenbuterol
IGF-LR3

I also have some tribulus from Sopharma - the proper tribulus company but everyone is telling me it's useless for PCT. It must have a use in the clean period following PCT though, surely?

Ta mate....

PS - I could say I'd be looking at a 4 month clean period post-PCT but I'd be lying. I'll probably be off 8 weeks or so once PCT is completed. Got 10kg to slap on for next year.

**hackskii** · 02-10-2007, 06:10 PM

Estrogen rebound is no joke, problem is blocking estrogen makes the receptors very sensitive and once you quit the AI it will get flooded with estrogen and those sensitive estrogen receptors will be fresh to make some nice tits….lol
One way around that is to taper the AI.
Or if you are going into PCT then you can take nolva and clomid with pretty much no worries about rebounding, but even those you should taper.

I take Aromasin with HCG myself and I also include nolva and clomid for PCT, I take bigger doses than most with regards to HCG, so I want to keep overall estrogen down some. Sadly you cant get away using Arimidex nor femara with nolva as it seriously lowers blood plasma levels of most AI’s with the exception of Aromasin where it doesn’t.
If you are considering an aggressive approach with HCG I would run the Aromasin with it and 2 days after you stop HCG, then you can drop the Aromasin and continue with the nolva and clomid.

But honestly if you want a painless transition into recovery I would run a taper of testosterone. Tren seems to be pretty suppressive I have found and usually needs some time from last jab for a PCT to be effective.
Last PCT didn’t go all that good and felt either the tren totally wasn’t out o my system of the liquid stuff I bought for PCT was garbage.
So, I went back on test to wait out the tren.
Deca is notorious for shutdown for months afterward and recovery is seriously compromised.

As far as the GH and IGF are concerned I do feel they aid in recovery, especially when doing HCG.

So, yes, I would do some test, I would also taper the test and you have the option of low dose HCG while on test to get testicular function back, or do the aggressive approach, it is your choice.
But while on test, I would run an AI with that, not for any other reason other than estrogen being very suppressive.
We are not looking to recover here, just keep gains, wait out the suppressive effects of tren to clear, and allowing the body to taper off gear.
Ideally I would taper the test down to TRT doses just before coming off.
If you get the nuts rolling, recovery is a breeze.

Sorry for being so vague here, I want you to decide how you want to do it and I can give you some guidance. After all it is your body and you should decide just which way you need to go. Once you figure it all out you will love how easy it is to recover.

Forget the trib, it is pretty much worthless.

Let me know what you decide then we can go in the direction you want.

rightyho · 02-10-2007, 07:25 PM

Cheers mate - it clearly makes sense to me to run a short test course, then as it clears, get onto HCG, continuing aromasin all the way through until HCG is cleared and nolva and clomid can be used at the tail end.

Don't fancy a cold turkey stop to tren at all.

Thanks Hackskii.

Was thinking of something like......

1500iu hcg EOD, shot at 500iu morning, afternoon and night and running it for 3 boxes of 3 ie 18 days, using aromasin at 1 EOD or ETD during this time frame, and 50mcg IGF-LR3 every day (post training on training days) - running the IGF up to 28 days.

Was then going to swop out to 100mg clomid / day taken as 50mg am and pm doses, with 20mg nolvadex pre-bed and 3.3iu gh per day before breakfast, running the clomid and nolvadex for 3 weeks, continuing with the GH during the off period.

Days 1-18:
1500iu HCG EOD
50mcg IGF/day
1 aromasin EOD

Days 19-28
100mg clomid/day
20mg nolvadex/day
3.3iu gh/day
50mcg IGF/day

Days 29-40
50mg clomid/day
20mg nolvadex/day
3.3iu gh/day

Days 40-96
3.3iu gh/day, creatine, glutamine, Pro-GF

**hackskii** · 02-10-2007, 10:32 PM

You could run some test for a month or so to wait for that all to clear, switching to the shorter esters while you taper that down.
One problem with being on androgens at above physiological levels makes you used to the androgens, once you come off you end up with a kind of androgen withdrawal.
Tapering at the end of a long cycle is very prudent advice. But most people will disagree.
But I have seen dudes crash so freaking bad it is one of the ugliest things I ever saw and I truly feel sorry for them.

So, you have some options here.
First of all I was getting morning wood on 100mg of clomid, when I dropped it after a couple of weeks to 50, I stopped getting morning wood.
Run the clomid @ 100mg for 30 days.
Run the nolva @ 20mg for 45 days.

The whole crux of recovery hinges around testicular function.
So, you could try and do something like what you are thinking, or any variation.
The biggest problem with HCG is its heavy aromatization and much of that is in the testicles. It will raise test levels big time but even more so estrogen. This boost of estrogen in the nuts is a bad thing; this is where we get in to trouble with desentization issues with the Leydig cells.
HCG and aromatization is dose dependant.
One thing that kind of protects the nuts from desentization is nolva.
So, you can do something like 500iu a day for a few weeks, that might just do it as that would just over 10,000iu.
For me it takes over 10,000iu for me to recover, closer to around 20,000 actually, but that is at the end of the cycle.
If you use it during you would need far less.

Take 1,000iu of Vitamin E a day too, do not use aspirin during the use of HCG, take your IGF-1 and HGH with no problems and this will help things along too.

The most important thing is to get the nuts recovered.
One way to test this is once you come off gear and do the HCG you can have blood drawn to see where your test levels are.
If they are anywhere near your normal base levels you can stop the HCG and continue with the clomid and nolva.

If you are considering taking 1500iu then maybe you might want to consider taking nolva with the Aromasin to help protect those Leydig cells. You wont recover while on testosterone but you can bring the nuts back to life while you are waiting out the clearance of the other stuff you were taking.
Also it would not be a bad idea to switch to shorter acting esters like propionate at the end, this way you only wait 3 days before starting PCT.

Or you can wait till you are done then do a more aggressive approach with the HCG.

What was the total length of time on cycle?