Originally Posted by soze

hacksii does ur above protocol apply to someone who is only running an 8 weeks cycle of sust @ 1ml a week, surely shutdown here wouldnt warrant such high doses of hcg??

Originally Posted by LukeVTS

wow. my eyes have been glued to my monitor! GREAT read hackskii. is this protocall just for someone with complete shut down? Do you have an example PCT (inc clomid and tamoxifen) for someone who has used HCG throughout the cycle? im guessing the 2500 would be way too much as testicular atrophy would probably be minimal anyway. Also, is this saying that after the 45 days, you would be able to go straight back on cycle?

Originally Posted by Trenzyme

dose youre doc suggest a low dose ai in pct , i find it helps a treat

Originally Posted by hackskii

Remember just 20mg of nolva can lower blood serum levels of letro by 38%, and it is around 28% with adex from my best guess..

Originally Posted by hackskii

I talked to the doc today on the phone and he answered many questions for me in regards to recovery of the HPTA.
For those of you who don’t know what that is it is “Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis”
After administration of AAS, you have shutdown of the HPTA. Depending on the meds taken shutdown can be severe and much does depend on the person as well.

This is the protocol the doc said he used in literally thousands of users with suppressed HPTA.
First thing, the 500iu a day was not enough to make the testicles do their job, he suggested this was just a waste of time and money.
He suggests 8 shots of HCG @ 2500iu EOD.
With this you take 20 mg of nolvadex for 45 days.
Clomid is also taken but twice a day @ 50mg each dose 12 hours apart.

The reason for the amounts of HCG (which is the most important part, if the balls don’t fire everything else is worthless), is based on his determination to bring the balls back to life, too little wont accomplish this, too much risks damage to the Leydig cells.
So he basically was saying that you do the HCG and around day 10 of the above protocol, you should get a blood test for testosterone. If it is above 400 or greater then this says the balls will be just fine once you get off the HCG and the Clomid and nolva take over. This will accept the LH that you are putting out to maintain testicular function.
He used the term like jumping a car. Your battery (Pituitary gland) if low wont start your car (your testicles), if you use another car and jumper cables (HCG) once the car starts your battery (HP part of the HPTA) will keep your car running.

The clomid by itself he suggested can inhibit either the pituitary or the hypothalamus (can’t remember which one) but if taken with nolva this blocks the estrogen receptors so you wont inhibit that.
So clomid in his protocol is always taken with nolvadex ALWAYS.

He did mention that sometimes the balls just don’t take and then you do the protocol again. He said it was rare that he could not fire up the HPTA.
He said that beings that I have good size difference (balls), feel good, strength gains, and a greasy face he felt I should have no problems with returning the HPTA.

Some things he said was tribulis was actually inhibitory on the HPTA, great I wish I found that out after I bought two bottles.

ZMA, he said if it made me feel good then go for it but it is placebo and the HCG, clomid, nolva was it and all that is needed.

Talked to him about progesterone and he said never take that if you are a man (the last doc prescribed it to me)

Sorry aftershock, I forgot to ask him about the GH question he was saying so much I was just trying to listen.

One thing he did mention (in an article) was that HGH actually helped with the testicular recovery with things and adding that to the Protocol is a good idea and productive.

Avoid aspirin when on HCG as it kind of ruins the effects.

He said oxandrolone was suppressive on the HPTA, but Deca and Anadrol were probably the worst in his opinion. I asked him about tren but he had no knowledge as he never used it.
He did mention that test in itself was not all that suppressive and he has seen guys on 18 months that came off and made a full recovery in 45 days with the above protocol.

He said one of the best ways was 12 weeks of test, followed by the above protocol, then start another 12 weeks followed by the above protocol with a month off after that then start again.

He did say that desensitization to HCG took around 2 months, and the dose of 2500 was fine and no damage or desensitization would occur if you followed his protocol.

There it is.

Originally Posted by chilisi

just to confirm this ongoing issue im having...

does the doc reccommend starting the pct 17 days no matter what long or short ester used.

as some are suggested 3 days,some 2 weeks and some are suggested 3 weeks..??

Originally Posted by hackskii

The doc never said that, the start time for PCT is dependant on amount of gear used, and the ester attached to it.

For instance 300mg of test E, 2 weeks would be ok to start PCT, and you could wait 3 weeks to be safe, or switch to a faster ester like prop, then wait 3 days.

But for lets say 600mg of deca, hell you could wait a month, same for a Gram of cypionate, a month.
500 sust could be a month too.

It depends on the amount of mg being shot, and the ester attached.
A gram of sust, you may wait longer than a month.
100mg of enanthate 6 days

See?

Originally Posted by hackskii

The doc never said that, the start time for PCT is dependant on amount of gear used, and the ester attached to it.

For instance 300mg of test E, 2 weeks would be ok to start PCT, and you could wait 3 weeks to be safe, or switch to a faster ester like prop, then wait 3 days.

But for lets say 600mg of deca, hell you could wait a month, same for a Gram of cypionate, a month.
500 sust could be a month too.

It depends on the amount of mg being shot, and the ester attached.
A gram of sust, you may wait longer than a month.
100mg of enanthate 6 days

See?

Originally Posted by Robbyg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbyg View Post
So if you were using 500ius twice aweek through out the cycle would this still be ok and aid recovery still ? thanks Scott
You would not need anywhere near the amounts if you use it during than not.
You can continue using HCG along with an AI during the clearance time of your gear, then yes, you can continue low dose in the beginning of PCT. I did this last time and that recovery went by far the best.
I was shooting 500iu during the cycle twice a week, but I still noticed some testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle.
So, I kept doing the 500iu, then did 1,000iu EOD for like 4 shots, then kept the clomid and nolva as above.
That recovery went super easy, best one yet.
Thanks Scott just wanted to check that it was still ok to use whilst on cycle but to look for any testicular atrophy at the end of the cycle

Originally Posted by Sylar

It has no effect on Aromasin though.

I'm running Aromasin with my PCT at the moment and i am convinced it's helping.

Originally Posted by albie

Rohm PCT caps contain:

proviron - 20mg
Nolvadex - 20mg
Clomid - 50mg
H1/Alpha CT290 - 7.5mg.

So would 45 days of these with the 2500iu eod of Hcg (8 shots) be ok? 2 pct caps/day, one am, one pm.