LeRoy

to be clearer
14 x 14
Weekdays on, weekends off, for 6-8 weeks, or 3 weeker only, or normal short 6-8 weeks cycle.

Rich-B

For me it's normal 6 - 8 weekers but I'm gunna be trying a 4 weeker for my next cycle in April.

Foz1

4 Weeker of what?
Personally I wouldnt bother doing only 4 weeks, by the time the gear has kicked in properly your'll be stoppin, whats the point?

John

its lots of orals or loads of tren and prop.

Rich-B

Thats what I've always thought too but I've been looking into them a lot lately and I'm gunna give them a try, ideally I'd prefer to do a high intensity bulker as I think short high intensity cycles are more suited for bulking but I've been dieting for 8 weeks so I'm going with more cutting gear this time while my bodyfat is low, also I have to plan my cycles around work due to working away a lot so short cycles (if they work for me) will actually suit me better.

Cycle is as follows:

Days 1 - 29: Viro 100mg EOD
Days 1 - 10: Primo 100mg ED
Days 11 - 29: Tren 75mg EOD
Days 10 - 29: Winny 50mg ED
Days 1 - 29: T3 25mcg taper up to 100mcg and back down.
Days 1 - 29: GH 4iu EOD (this is already running and will continue beyond the cycle)

PCT for 15 days (Trib/Zinc)

2 - 4 weeks off before next cycle.

Comments appreciated?

hackskii

30 days you will still get shutdown.
I dont think zinc and trib will cut it for PCT.
That prop will still be in there for a few days, so some inhibition will happen.

Id consider nolva for PCT 2 or 3 days after the last jab of prop.
Run that for 30 days.
Nolva can raise natural test levels too so you wont be doing too bad.

__________________
Power over others is weakness disguised as strength.

Scott

Rich-B

Hmm, just out of interest why nolva as opposed to clomid?

hackskii

This is one thing I have researched more than anything.

Nolva over clomid by far.
It not only works better with less sides but works longer too, meaning 4-6 weeks out it still works and clomid might even inhibit at this point.

I will dig out some articles.
There are a few prominant guys that prefere nolva over clomid.

__________________
Power over others is weakness disguised as strength.

Scott

hackskii

Ok, lets get the ball rolling on here, clomid vs nolva
These will be snips from many articles on this board.

Snip, Author Unknown but I suspect it is Anthony Roberts that might have posted it on his board.
Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex.
Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid…and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no “synergy” that I’ve ever seen in any relevant study.
SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that.

Snipped from The A B C's of anti E's
Now dig this: According to William LLewellyn, studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium used Nolvadex for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, which increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration! Depending on what you read into this, I'd say that Nolvadex is a superior buy for post-cycle recovery. That being said, Nolvadex is good, but not quite perfect, as it lowers IGF-1 levels. Post-cycle, though, when I'm worried about returning test-levels to normal, I'm not too worried about IGF-1 levels. Though, personally, I've found testicular atrophy during a cycle is attenuated to a greater degree by Clomid. So besides competing with estrogen at the receptor, these drugs both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles. I couldn't find the studies W.L. mentioned, but still found that 20mgs of tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but tamixifen did not decrease the LH response to LHRH (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.). Thus, I'd still reccomend Nolv over clomid. Actually, I think nolvadex is far superior to clomid for most purposes.
As Nolvadex isn't actually an anti-aromatase, but rather a competitor for the receptor site, and seeing as it increases test levels so much, I'd say that it's actually a better post-cycle drug than Clomid (which wreaks havoc on my eyesight, due to it's Occular Toxicity.and Nolvadex has some of that property, but in my experience doesn't mess with my eyesight as much).

Snipped from: Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
by William Llewellyn
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

As you see above that after 10 days nolva increases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH while Clomid DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH.
Now I feel this is a real issue because most PCT should be run for a minimum of 30 days.
If this is fact the case then Clomid is by far inferior and might inhibit recovery.

Farther down in the article....snip.....

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In the article above it was also suggesting Clomid raised SHBG which is what binds to testoserone and allows for LESS free test:
"The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment".

Following so far, decrease pituitary sensitiviey (takes more to do less) to GnRH, which the hypothalamus tells the pituitary to release LH (which makes test) and FSH which makes sperm), increase in SHBG, which binds with test to allow less free test, which by the way is only 3% of the total test that actually is bioavailable.

There are a few more articles out there that prefere nolva over clomid.
Remember it takes 150mg to do what 20mg of nolva does, this drives up the cost and sides.
Not to mention the above comments from articles.
If you want the whole articles I can get you links.

__________________
Power over others is weakness disguised as strength.

Scott

Rich-B

Hmm, interesting stuff, while we're on the topic what is your preferred anti-e during cycle?

During cycle I've always used 20mg Nolva daily but due to reports that this can reduce your gains I'm planning on using Proviron 50mg ED for my next couple of cycles.

Whats your thoughts on this?

hackskii

Arimidex would be my fav due to the half life of about 3 days.
Femera is a bit stronger but shorter half life so it makes dosing harder for me.

I am not so sure the jury is out on proviron. Actually I do like the idea of proviron during a test cycle but I honestly am not sure of its anti-estrogen properties being a dirrivitive of DHT.
I know DHT opposes progesterone and estrogen but other than that I am not sold it would work for lets say gyno like nolva, clomid, femera or arimidex.

I read nolva can reduce IGF-1 so I like the idea of Arimidex myself the best.
Most of the HRT guys use that on their treatments to get their E2 down so if it is good enough for them then it is good enough for me, and they take around 100-200mg a week of cyp.

__________________
Power over others is weakness disguised as strength.

Scott

samurai69

14 x 14 is 14 days on 14 days off repeated for 3 to 6 monthes followed by a break...usually low dose dbol ... ie 10+ mg ed

Rich-B

I read somewhere that Arimidex has the same affect as Nolva in trems of reducing gains only worse, is this incorrect then?

hackskii

Well, there are some that feel that estrogen in the cycle actually aids in the gains, water retention for one actually does have a leveraging effect and yes can aid in strength gains.

I have read somewhere that estrogen clears receptor sites but I am not sure on that one.

Estrogen also keeps GnRH receptors upregulated too, also too low of estrogen will damage your lipid profile.

As for gains, Hmm, hard to say.
Estrogen management is used in HRT therapy by respected Doctors so keeping estrogen within normal levels is a good thing.
I guess we are talking abour estrogen management and not tanking it to nothing, this is just foolish.

Remember nolva only blockes the receptor sites but an aromatase inhibitor bindes to aromatase so estrogen can not be manufactured.

Older men with belly fat have higher than normal aromatase.
Aromatase resides in belly fat among other places and the fatter you get in theory the fatter you get.
Too much aromatase raises estrogen, estrogen can lower test levels vie way of negative feedback.

Bottom line, if you are gyno prone you have no choice in the matter, which ever anti you choose.

__________________
Power over others is weakness disguised as strength.

Scott

Aftershock

If you are only using 100mg test prop eod, the 50mg Prov will be more than enough to contol estrogen, plus it will upgage the effectivness of the test.. No NEED for adex on such a modest dose.. If I had to pick one or the other I would run prov every time..

Personally I like to stay really dry during cycles so I go with 0.5mg adex eod and 25mg prov ed, even on modest doses of test. Just to get the best of both worlds like

Love prov tho, wouldnt run a test cycle without some in there.