interesting read on carbs... - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

Killerkeane · 10-05-2004, 10:20 PM

For athletes, high-carbohydrate diets optimise muscle-glycogen levels, and high muscle-glycogen concentrations improve endurance-exercise performance. However, achieving these magnificent glycogen levels is not just a matter of eating plenty of carbs but also of timing your carbohydrate intake appropriately. If, for example, you load up on carbohydrate immediately after either endurance or resistance exercise, you will enhance your total daily muscle glycogen re-synthesis much more than you would by consuming the same amount of carbs earlier in the day or postponing your carb consumption until a few hours later.

Interestingly enough, taking in carbohydrate immediately after exercise also seems to have a pronounced effect on protein metabolism, decreasing the rate of protein degradation in muscles and increasing whole-body protein synthesis. These twin effects are, of course, highly desirable for athletes, whose performances tend to drop off if significant quantities of protein are lost. (Remember that proteins are the building blocks of muscles and that certain proteins can also serve as energy-releasing enzymes within muscle cells.) Why do carbs save – and even boost – the production of proteins?

For years, exercise scientists have assumed simply that ample carbs give muscles enough energy to stimulate protein production. But, in fact, the true explanation is slightly more complex. Proteins are made of subunits called amino acids, and the breakdown of a very important group of amino acids, called the branched-chain amino acids, is regulated by the activity of an enzyme called BCOAD. As you might expect, a diet which is very rich in protein leads to an increase in BCOAD activity in the liver.

By contrast, when athletes step up their carb intakes BCOAD activity drops. Thus, high intakes of carbohydrate seem to spare protein by calming down BCOAD. Training per se also has an impact on BCOAD activity, with chronic training producing a drop in BCOAD activity in the muscles. In general, ‘down-regulation’ of BCOAD is considered a positive adaptation since it means that muscles, which are primarily composed of protein, will be less apt to ‘break down’ and more inclined to build new structures during periods of heavy exertion.

When training increases in volume or intensity, considerations related to total carbohydrate intake, the timing of this intake and the impact of diet and training load on protein metabolism become particularly crucial. This is because increases in training can deplete muscle glycogen stores and throw athletes into a state of ‘negative nitrogen balance’, in which they lose more protein than they are making.

How to maximise muscle glycogen

In order to work out what sort of nutritional strategy might be best for athletes undergoing an increase in total training load, who want to max-out muscle glycogen and stay positive with protein, exercise scientists at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario recently studied 10 female athletes over two separate, one-week periods. The choice of female athletes as subjects was particularly appropriate, since many sportswomen have abnormally low protein and total-calorie intakes.

Before the study began, all 10 women had participated regularly in some form of endurance activity, with an average training load of three 45-minute workouts per week. All were menstruating regularly, and they were tested only during the mid-follicular phases of their menstrual cycles (days four to 11). Average VO2max, measured during progressive cycling to fatigue, was 46.3 ml/kg-min. The athletes completed two separate seven-day interventions, one involving carbohydrate supplementation before exercise and the other immediately afterwards.

During both of these trials the athletes’ energy, carbohydrate and protein-intake patterns were exactly the same: approximately 2,160 calories per day, including 1.4g of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, with 58% of energy derived from carbs, 26% from fat and 16% from protein. On days one, three and four of the seven-day trials, the women worked out in the mornings by cycling for one hour at an intensity of 65% of VO2max (about 76% of max heart rate). On day three, the women completed an additional one-hour workout at 65% VO2max in the afternoon, and on day six they completed an additional 90-minute exertion at the same intensity. On the seventh day they didn’t rest but cycled for as long as possible at 75% VO2max. Thus, the volume associated with each week’s training schedule was nearly 150% above the usual level (335 minutes compared with 135).

In both trials, the women used a liquid supplement called Results (produced by Mead-Johnson Canada Inc), in which 66% of the calories were derived from carbohydrate, 23% from protein and 11% from fat. Athletes on the post-exercise supplementation regime imbibed the drink immediately after their one-hour bike rides, while the pre-exercise athletes consumed the same amount of the product at breakfast, well before their exertions. Remember, total energy, carbohydrate, and protein intakes were identical in the two groups: the only difference was in the timing of the supplementation. And that timing made a significant difference to a whole range of variables, including fat oxidation, carbohydrate concentrations, protein breakdown, exercise capacity and body weight!

As the researchers might have expected, carbohydrate breakdown during exercise tended to be greater when the supplement had been taken beforehand rather than afterwards. Also, not surprisingly, fat oxidation during exercise was greater when supplementation was postponed until afterwards. These findings are simple to explain: when athletes take in extra carbohydrate at breakfast, their liver and muscle stores of glycogen tend to rise, and thus they have more carbohydrate fuel available for prolonged exercise later in the day. When carbohydrate intake is more minimal, fat is forced to supply more of the energy needed for prolonged exertion.

As usual, timing is everything!

The key results, though, related to nitrogen balance, body mass, and performance. When Results was imbibed after exercise, nitrogen balance was positive: this simply means that the athletes were taking in more nitrogen than they were losing – another way of saying that their protein stores were increasing. When the supplement was taken at breakfast, however, nitrogen balance during the heavy training was negative – i.e. protein was being lost. As well as saving protein, drinking Results right after workouts also prevented excessive losses in body weight during the heavy training. When the supplement was taken after training sessions, the athletes lost 1.5lb in weight during the seven-day trial period, compared with 3.1lb when the supplement was taken at breakfast.

Finally, taking the drink after workouts allowed the athletes to exercise an average of 47% longer during the 75% VO2max effort on day seven than they were able to after breakfast supplementation. But why does carb intake right after exercise produce such great results? Well, carbs control our old friend BCOAD, an effect which helps muscles hang on to more of their very desirable protein. Also, post-exercise carbs drive up blood insulin levels, and insulin can have a very powerful effect on muscles.

To determine insulin’s specific effects, scientists at the University of Texas recently infused insulin into the femoral arteries of athletes following heavy-duty resistance exercise involving the legs. Without insulin, the rate of leg-muscle protein degradation was about 15% higher than the rate of protein synthesis following exercise – i.e. the athletes’ leg muscles were losing protein. When insulin was supplied to the leg muscles after exercise, the rate of protein synthesis was not augmented, but the rate of protein degradation dropped by about 30%! This created a situation of positive protein balance, with the athletes immediately building up their muscles in response to their training.

One of the fascinating aspects of this research was that insulin preferentially drove certain amino acids into the leg muscles. For example, insulin increased the muscles’ rate of absorption of an amino acid called alanine threefold after exercise but had little effect on the absorption of other amino acids, such as phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine. This raises the possibility that well-planned ‘cocktails’ of amino acids might have the greatest possible effect on intramuscular protein synthesis.

In this study, protein synthesis was not enhanced, but this may have been due to the fact that no additional amino acids were given to the athletes, either orally or intravenously, and they had to rely on the normal concentrations of amino acids already found in their tissues and blood plasma. The combination of an amino-acid cocktail and high insulin levels might have incredibly positive effects on protein synthesis and recovery from exercise in serious athletes. As demonstrated, when athletes time their carb intake properly they achieve a better nitrogen balance and – as a result of greater glycogen – better performance on the following day (as they did on day seven of the McMaster University study).

A sceptic might ask: why couldn’t breakfast carbs do the same thing? In theory they should be able to, but the ‘catch’ is that muscles are most receptive to taking carbohydrate on board and holding onto it during the two hours immediately after exercise. What are the practical implications of this research for your training? To promote recovery and increase your chances of performing well during subsequent training sessions, take in carbohydrate and protein immediately after your workout ends. Aim for about 2g of carbohydrate per kg of body weight and approximately 40g of protein. If, for example, you weigh in at 65 kilos, you would consume 130 grams (520 calories) of carbs soon after exercise along with your 40g of protein. Note, too, that the new research on nutrient timing means that the composition of any workout consists of more than the exercise itself. It also includes a ‘nutritional warm-up’, consisting of the pre-exercise amino acids you plan to take (30-40g should be about right) and a post-exercise warm-down, when you ingest the right amounts of carbohydrate and protein. These nutritional strategies should be planned just as carefully as your actual physical training.

Owen Anderson

Thought it was worth reading

**hackskii** · 10-05-2004, 10:56 PM

This is what Panthro has been saying all along. Never knew why but now I know.

that muscles are most receptive to taking carbohydrate on board and holding onto it during the two hours immediately after exercise. What are the practical implications of this research for your training? To promote recovery and increase your chances of performing well during subsequent training sessions, take in carbohydrate and protein immediately after your workout ends.

Killerkeane · 10-05-2004, 11:23 PM

yep, thought you might like it. I think the role of carbs are highly underestimated because all these 'books' stress protein so much. I only thought of posting it today because my gym owner Bill (2000 Bodybuilding champion) said to me not to cycle creatine yet. And that all the supplements from H&B is equilivant to buying a bicyle from Tesco, and since i work at tesco i definetly know what he means lol.
Ill post a few more of these soon once everybody has a good read on this one.

**hackskii** · 11-05-2004, 12:42 AM

Right on Killer! I will read all the articles. Diets are my favorite read. I usually can see a slant from the Author at times pressing his or her point. There is alot of information out there and this information changes alot. Example Salt, years ago they said it will kill you, now I hear it is not so bad and low salt diets are not good for some people.

philipebrown · 11-05-2004, 09:11 AM

What about carbs in relation to fat loss, contrary to what is percieved as recommended for weight loss, when i cut my carbs after a while my metabolism slows and i stop losing fat, get tired and cant perform well in the gym. i seem to lose more fat by keeping my foods as clean as possible and sticking to around 150-200g carbs per day. Although i am still finding it hard to reach the right balance, it is taking a lot of trial and error! I guess were all different.

**hackskii** · 11-05-2004, 01:47 PM

Well some guys that cut the carbs dont cut the post workout carbs. I think a guy that was dieting only had like 100 grams of carbs and it was all post workout. In the article it talked about positive Nitrogen ballance and it was achieved with protein and carbs post workout. Had something to do with insulin also.
I cut my carbs and at week 3 I started to slow down the fat loss and even at one point stopped losing. But Remember, I have not done any cardio just lifted weights. So when you slow or stop losing weight then start doing cardio and the weightloss is back on.

You can trick the body by re-introducing carbs and then back off again and you will start to lose again. The body is smart and for the most part smarter than us. Cheat days are good, chromium is good, L-carnitine is good, chick weed is good. You can do the ECA thing. Many variables to look at.

philipebrown · 11-05-2004, 01:55 PM

i think i might start carb cycling say, 150g per day (including post workout, 80g non workout days) for 5 days then 250-300g on weekends and see how that works. My body felt like it went into shock last weekend after a gruelling week of training and very little carbs. I felt drained and sick while training, which cant be good. I usually spend 1 hour on the weights and 20mins on the treadmill straight after.

**hackskii** · 11-05-2004, 03:40 PM

Well, it takes about 3 days of low carb to slip from using carbs for fuel to fat for fuel. Surprisingly after about a week or so your energy will be up. You wont lose too much strength if any but the later reps and sets you wont have as much gas. But as soon as you re-introduce the carbs back in it is like you are on a cycle.

philipebrown · 11-05-2004, 03:56 PM

i guess the trick is not to keep your diet too constant for too long. like you say, your body is clever and quickly adapts. I had a great week a couple of weeks back where my fat measurements and weight dropped a lot and i was told to change nothing and guess what happened the following week. i kept my diet the same, felt hungry and gained weight and fat. Sometimes its enough to make you want to quit! but we still keep trying!

Killerkeane · 11-05-2004, 04:35 PM

i think cycling carbs could be a good idea, im not advanced as that yet to start doing this stuff but will be prepared 1-2 years down the line.

Diets are my favorite read.

i agree Hacks, i absolutly love reading on diets, supplements and food. I have just bought Arnie's New encylopedia of modern bodybuilding today, just have to wait 4-5 days until i get it now, TORTURE!!!!!!

I cant remember where i read it now but i read it is carbs that give you that awful bloated feeling when you eat too much, which is why i dont fill up after many meals becasue i dont eat many carbs in the first place
You have any good articles i can read Scott?? I imagine you do

philipebrown · 11-05-2004, 04:38 PM

saturated fats make you feel bloated as your liver has a hard time digesting them, never had any bloated feeling from clean carbs tho

Killerkeane · 11-05-2004, 07:57 PM

hmmm, i seem to get bloated after eating even a moderate amount of pasta or rice, i can never eat much of these foods

**hackskii** · 11-05-2004, 10:46 PM

I get bloated from carbs too.
Now saturated fats are not all bad. Hows this?
What is testosterone made from?

Scroll down!
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Cholesterol!.............................Thats right so diets low in cholesterol can have an effect on your own natural testosterone production.
Cholesterol also helps repair arteries.

Wanna keep the bloat down then
1. use carbs that are low in the glycemic index.
2. add a fiber to it to slow down the absorbtion.
3. dont eat over 500 calories in a sitting.
4. add digestive enzymes like amalase, protiase, lipase. Sorry for the spelling, I dont have a spell checker. Or go to the health food store and buy some digestive enzymes.

Bloat is almost always caused from carbohydrates. Most of the time it is the carbohydrate lactase, which is the carb in milk. Can give you some ferocious gas too.

So to recap, keep the meals smaller, take digestive enzymes and back off on the carbs some.

Carbs give you gas too. I have problems with brocolli myself.

Killerkeane · 11-05-2004, 11:11 PM

thats excellent hackskii, you give such ******** good information, i love you man!

Killerkeane · 11-05-2004, 11:13 PM

where can i find the glycemic index? I want to get this carb thing under control, cas i bloat almost every meal(well every 2 meals a day i would say)

10-05-2004, 10:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
Killerkeane The Geezer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Somerset although im not proud lol. Posts: 2,978	interesting read on carbs... For athletes, high-carbohydrate diets optimise muscle-glycogen levels, and high muscle-glycogen concentrations improve endurance-exercise performance. However, achieving these magnificent glycogen levels is not just a matter of eating plenty of carbs but also of timing your carbohydrate intake appropriately. If, for example, you load up on carbohydrate immediately after either endurance or resistance exercise, you will enhance your total daily muscle glycogen re-synthesis much more than you would by consuming the same amount of carbs earlier in the day or postponing your carb consumption until a few hours later. Interestingly enough, taking in carbohydrate immediately after exercise also seems to have a pronounced effect on protein metabolism, decreasing the rate of protein degradation in muscles and increasing whole-body protein synthesis. These twin effects are, of course, highly desirable for athletes, whose performances tend to drop off if significant quantities of protein are lost. (Remember that proteins are the building blocks of muscles and that certain proteins can also serve as energy-releasing enzymes within muscle cells.) Why do carbs save – and even boost – the production of proteins? For years, exercise scientists have assumed simply that ample carbs give muscles enough energy to stimulate protein production. But, in fact, the true explanation is slightly more complex. Proteins are made of subunits called amino acids, and the breakdown of a very important group of amino acids, called the branched-chain amino acids, is regulated by the activity of an enzyme called BCOAD. As you might expect, a diet which is very rich in protein leads to an increase in BCOAD activity in the liver. By contrast, when athletes step up their carb intakes BCOAD activity drops. Thus, high intakes of carbohydrate seem to spare protein by calming down BCOAD. Training per se also has an impact on BCOAD activity, with chronic training producing a drop in BCOAD activity in the muscles. In general, ‘down-regulation’ of BCOAD is considered a positive adaptation since it means that muscles, which are primarily composed of protein, will be less apt to ‘break down’ and more inclined to build new structures during periods of heavy exertion. When training increases in volume or intensity, considerations related to total carbohydrate intake, the timing of this intake and the impact of diet and training load on protein metabolism become particularly crucial. This is because increases in training can deplete muscle glycogen stores and throw athletes into a state of ‘negative nitrogen balance’, in which they lose more protein than they are making. How to maximise muscle glycogen In order to work out what sort of nutritional strategy might be best for athletes undergoing an increase in total training load, who want to max-out muscle glycogen and stay positive with protein, exercise scientists at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario recently studied 10 female athletes over two separate, one-week periods. The choice of female athletes as subjects was particularly appropriate, since many sportswomen have abnormally low protein and total-calorie intakes. Before the study began, all 10 women had participated regularly in some form of endurance activity, with an average training load of three 45-minute workouts per week. All were menstruating regularly, and they were tested only during the mid-follicular phases of their menstrual cycles (days four to 11). Average VO2max, measured during progressive cycling to fatigue, was 46.3 ml/kg-min. The athletes completed two separate seven-day interventions, one involving carbohydrate supplementation before exercise and the other immediately afterwards. During both of these trials the athletes’ energy, carbohydrate and protein-intake patterns were exactly the same: approximately 2,160 calories per day, including 1.4g of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, with 58% of energy derived from carbs, 26% from fat and 16% from protein. On days one, three and four of the seven-day trials, the women worked out in the mornings by cycling for one hour at an intensity of 65% of VO2max (about 76% of max heart rate). On day three, the women completed an additional one-hour workout at 65% VO2max in the afternoon, and on day six they completed an additional 90-minute exertion at the same intensity. On the seventh day they didn’t rest but cycled for as long as possible at 75% VO2max. Thus, the volume associated with each week’s training schedule was nearly 150% above the usual level (335 minutes compared with 135). In both trials, the women used a liquid supplement called Results (produced by Mead-Johnson Canada Inc), in which 66% of the calories were derived from carbohydrate, 23% from protein and 11% from fat. Athletes on the post-exercise supplementation regime imbibed the drink immediately after their one-hour bike rides, while the pre-exercise athletes consumed the same amount of the product at breakfast, well before their exertions. Remember, total energy, carbohydrate, and protein intakes were identical in the two groups: the only difference was in the timing of the supplementation. And that timing made a significant difference to a whole range of variables, including fat oxidation, carbohydrate concentrations, protein breakdown, exercise capacity and body weight! As the researchers might have expected, carbohydrate breakdown during exercise tended to be greater when the supplement had been taken beforehand rather than afterwards. Also, not surprisingly, fat oxidation during exercise was greater when supplementation was postponed until afterwards. These findings are simple to explain: when athletes take in extra carbohydrate at breakfast, their liver and muscle stores of glycogen tend to rise, and thus they have more carbohydrate fuel available for prolonged exercise later in the day. When carbohydrate intake is more minimal, fat is forced to supply more of the energy needed for prolonged exertion. As usual, timing is everything! The key results, though, related to nitrogen balance, body mass, and performance. When Results was imbibed after exercise, nitrogen balance was positive: this simply means that the athletes were taking in more nitrogen than they were losing – another way of saying that their protein stores were increasing. When the supplement was taken at breakfast, however, nitrogen balance during the heavy training was negative – i.e. protein was being lost. As well as saving protein, drinking Results right after workouts also prevented excessive losses in body weight during the heavy training. When the supplement was taken after training sessions, the athletes lost 1.5lb in weight during the seven-day trial period, compared with 3.1lb when the supplement was taken at breakfast. Finally, taking the drink after workouts allowed the athletes to exercise an average of 47% longer during the 75% VO2max effort on day seven than they were able to after breakfast supplementation. But why does carb intake right after exercise produce such great results? Well, carbs control our old friend BCOAD, an effect which helps muscles hang on to more of their very desirable protein. Also, post-exercise carbs drive up blood insulin levels, and insulin can have a very powerful effect on muscles. To determine insulin’s specific effects, scientists at the University of Texas recently infused insulin into the femoral arteries of athletes following heavy-duty resistance exercise involving the legs. Without insulin, the rate of leg-muscle protein degradation was about 15% higher than the rate of protein synthesis following exercise – i.e. the athletes’ leg muscles were losing protein. When insulin was supplied to the leg muscles after exercise, the rate of protein synthesis was not augmented, but the rate of protein degradation dropped by about 30%! This created a situation of positive protein balance, with the athletes immediately building up their muscles in response to their training. One of the fascinating aspects of this research was that insulin preferentially drove certain amino acids into the leg muscles. For example, insulin increased the muscles’ rate of absorption of an amino acid called alanine threefold after exercise but had little effect on the absorption of other amino acids, such as phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine. This raises the possibility that well-planned ‘cocktails’ of amino acids might have the greatest possible effect on intramuscular protein synthesis. In this study, protein synthesis was not enhanced, but this may have been due to the fact that no additional amino acids were given to the athletes, either orally or intravenously, and they had to rely on the normal concentrations of amino acids already found in their tissues and blood plasma. The combination of an amino-acid cocktail and high insulin levels might have incredibly positive effects on protein synthesis and recovery from exercise in serious athletes. As demonstrated, when athletes time their carb intake properly they achieve a better nitrogen balance and – as a result of greater glycogen – better performance on the following day (as they did on day seven of the McMaster University study). A sceptic might ask: why couldn’t breakfast carbs do the same thing? In theory they should be able to, but the ‘catch’ is that muscles are most receptive to taking carbohydrate on board and holding onto it during the two hours immediately after exercise. What are the practical implications of this research for your training? To promote recovery and increase your chances of performing well during subsequent training sessions, take in carbohydrate and protein immediately after your workout ends. Aim for about 2g of carbohydrate per kg of body weight and approximately 40g of protein. If, for example, you weigh in at 65 kilos, you would consume 130 grams (520 calories) of carbs soon after exercise along with your 40g of protein. Note, too, that the new research on nutrient timing means that the composition of any workout consists of more than the exercise itself. It also includes a ‘nutritional warm-up’, consisting of the pre-exercise amino acids you plan to take (30-40g should be about right) and a post-exercise warm-down, when you ingest the right amounts of carbohydrate and protein. These nutritional strategies should be planned just as carefully as your actual physical training. Owen Anderson Thought it was worth reading __________________ Fortes Fortuna Paratus Mens-Fortune favours the prepared mind.:amen:

10-05-2004, 10:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	This is what Panthro has been saying all along. Never knew why but now I know. that muscles are most receptive to taking carbohydrate on board and holding onto it during the two hours immediately after exercise. What are the practical implications of this research for your training? To promote recovery and increase your chances of performing well during subsequent training sessions, take in carbohydrate and protein immediately after your workout ends. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

10-05-2004, 11:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
Killerkeane The Geezer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Somerset although im not proud lol. Posts: 2,978	yep, thought you might like it. I think the role of carbs are highly underestimated because all these 'books' stress protein so much. I only thought of posting it today because my gym owner Bill (2000 Bodybuilding champion) said to me not to cycle creatine yet. And that all the supplements from H&B is equilivant to buying a bicyle from Tesco, and since i work at tesco i definetly know what he means lol. Ill post a few more of these soon once everybody has a good read on this one. __________________ Fortes Fortuna Paratus Mens-Fortune favours the prepared mind.:amen:

11-05-2004, 12:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	Right on Killer! I will read all the articles. Diets are my favorite read. I usually can see a slant from the Author at times pressing his or her point. There is alot of information out there and this information changes alot. Example Salt, years ago they said it will kill you, now I hear it is not so bad and low salt diets are not good for some people. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-05-2004, 09:11 AM	#5 (permalink)
philipebrown Looking Freaky Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: north east Posts: 924	What about carbs in relation to fat loss, contrary to what is percieved as recommended for weight loss, when i cut my carbs after a while my metabolism slows and i stop losing fat, get tired and cant perform well in the gym. i seem to lose more fat by keeping my foods as clean as possible and sticking to around 150-200g carbs per day. Although i am still finding it hard to reach the right balance, it is taking a lot of trial and error! I guess were all different. __________________ "no, no, side chest franco, not front chest!........ ....and if you don't have it, don't hit it!" Arnold...from the making of pumping iron.

11-05-2004, 01:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	Well some guys that cut the carbs dont cut the post workout carbs. I think a guy that was dieting only had like 100 grams of carbs and it was all post workout. In the article it talked about positive Nitrogen ballance and it was achieved with protein and carbs post workout. Had something to do with insulin also. I cut my carbs and at week 3 I started to slow down the fat loss and even at one point stopped losing. But Remember, I have not done any cardio just lifted weights. So when you slow or stop losing weight then start doing cardio and the weightloss is back on. You can trick the body by re-introducing carbs and then back off again and you will start to lose again. The body is smart and for the most part smarter than us. Cheat days are good, chromium is good, L-carnitine is good, chick weed is good. You can do the ECA thing. Many variables to look at. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-05-2004, 01:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
philipebrown Looking Freaky Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: north east Posts: 924	i think i might start carb cycling say, 150g per day (including post workout, 80g non workout days) for 5 days then 250-300g on weekends and see how that works. My body felt like it went into shock last weekend after a gruelling week of training and very little carbs. I felt drained and sick while training, which cant be good. I usually spend 1 hour on the weights and 20mins on the treadmill straight after. __________________ "no, no, side chest franco, not front chest!........ ....and if you don't have it, don't hit it!" Arnold...from the making of pumping iron.

11-05-2004, 03:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	Well, it takes about 3 days of low carb to slip from using carbs for fuel to fat for fuel. Surprisingly after about a week or so your energy will be up. You wont lose too much strength if any but the later reps and sets you wont have as much gas. But as soon as you re-introduce the carbs back in it is like you are on a cycle. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-05-2004, 03:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
philipebrown Looking Freaky Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: north east Posts: 924	i guess the trick is not to keep your diet too constant for too long. like you say, your body is clever and quickly adapts. I had a great week a couple of weeks back where my fat measurements and weight dropped a lot and i was told to change nothing and guess what happened the following week. i kept my diet the same, felt hungry and gained weight and fat. Sometimes its enough to make you want to quit! but we still keep trying! __________________ "no, no, side chest franco, not front chest!........ ....and if you don't have it, don't hit it!" Arnold...from the making of pumping iron.

11-05-2004, 04:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
Killerkeane The Geezer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Somerset although im not proud lol. Posts: 2,978	i think cycling carbs could be a good idea, im not advanced as that yet to start doing this stuff but will be prepared 1-2 years down the line. Diets are my favorite read. i agree Hacks, i absolutly love reading on diets, supplements and food. I have just bought Arnie's New encylopedia of modern bodybuilding today, just have to wait 4-5 days until i get it now, TORTURE!!!!!! I cant remember where i read it now but i read it is carbs that give you that awful bloated feeling when you eat too much, which is why i dont fill up after many meals becasue i dont eat many carbs in the first place You have any good articles i can read Scott?? I imagine you do __________________ Fortes Fortuna Paratus Mens-Fortune favours the prepared mind.:amen:

11-05-2004, 04:38 PM	#11 (permalink)
philipebrown Looking Freaky Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: north east Posts: 924	saturated fats make you feel bloated as your liver has a hard time digesting them, never had any bloated feeling from clean carbs tho __________________ "no, no, side chest franco, not front chest!........ ....and if you don't have it, don't hit it!" Arnold...from the making of pumping iron.

11-05-2004, 07:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
Killerkeane The Geezer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Somerset although im not proud lol. Posts: 2,978	hmmm, i seem to get bloated after eating even a moderate amount of pasta or rice, i can never eat much of these foods __________________ Fortes Fortuna Paratus Mens-Fortune favours the prepared mind.:amen:

11-05-2004, 10:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	I get bloated from carbs too. Now saturated fats are not all bad. Hows this? What is testosterone made from? Scroll down! . . . . . . . . . Cholesterol!.............................Thats right so diets low in cholesterol can have an effect on your own natural testosterone production. Cholesterol also helps repair arteries. Wanna keep the bloat down then 1. use carbs that are low in the glycemic index. 2. add a fiber to it to slow down the absorbtion. 3. dont eat over 500 calories in a sitting. 4. add digestive enzymes like amalase, protiase, lipase. Sorry for the spelling, I dont have a spell checker. Or go to the health food store and buy some digestive enzymes. Bloat is almost always caused from carbohydrates. Most of the time it is the carbohydrate lactase, which is the carb in milk. Can give you some ferocious gas too. So to recap, keep the meals smaller, take digestive enzymes and back off on the carbs some. Carbs give you gas too. I have problems with brocolli myself. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

11-05-2004, 11:11 PM	#14 (permalink)
Killerkeane The Geezer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Somerset although im not proud lol. Posts: 2,978	thats excellent hackskii, you give such ******** good information, i love you man! __________________ Fortes Fortuna Paratus Mens-Fortune favours the prepared mind.:amen:

11-05-2004, 11:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
Killerkeane The Geezer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Somerset although im not proud lol. Posts: 2,978	where can i find the glycemic index? I want to get this carb thing under control, cas i bloat almost every meal(well every 2 meals a day i would say) __________________ Fortes Fortuna Paratus Mens-Fortune favours the prepared mind.:amen: