Insulin how good?

[thestudbeast]

Originally Posted by Pscarb

i have heard this theory of some fats can be eaten whilst others cannot now i eat clean when i use slin but what i cannot work out is how the injected slin knows to shuttle some fats and not others??

EFA's burn easily so will be used as a fuel source on a low carb diet, this will not apply with slin use at all!! The liver will already be full so this in combination with the rise in insulin will prevent its oxidization for energy and leave in the blood stream to be stored.

This is a good thing!

Yes you want EFA's to store as fat, its there in the fat cell that they activate fat loss via PPARS (Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors). In short people who are naturally lean have high PPAR activation.

.................... or it could be them nanites

[kingprop]

The oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) uses up to 70g glucose (80g dextrose or powdered glucose) so lets say for arguments sake 75g glucose. Over and above this level gives a false positive for diabetes ie blood sugar levels go too high when measured after 2 hours of consumption (the time it should take for BS levels to return to within normal range, in non diabetics) If it doesnt and stays high you are diagnosed as diabetic.

Therefore my argument is that PWO insulin use either will make you fat or wont do anything. If you consume 75g of a fast carbs, and shoot say 10ius of fast acting insulin; and if it takes 2 hours to return BS to normal anyway (OGTT) and the fast acting insulin will hit within 20-30 minutes depending on brand and type its either going to blunt your natural secretion of insulin from the pancreas by lowering BS too fast, or it will make you fat and full of water (especially if you also consume extra fast carbs (say 100g extra as you read that 1iu=10g sugar) as the body tissues (muscle) can take up only so much so the rest is turned to fat (stored energy) and all that extra sugar retains water as it moves along. Oh, and blunts protein (amino acid) uptake as it primary for the body to sort the high BS out first. Shooting slin then waiting for a hypo to begin means the pancreas will not release insulin, thereby nothing will happen except insulin tolerance developing quickly. Well, maybe death if your unlucky!

So surely lower doses of exogenous insulin would enable the tissues to take up as much as they can without you overspilling and getting fat? Once you get bigger and bigger muscle wise you could actually use more insulin, in fact you'd need too as more body tissues leads to type 2 diabetes (obese people or BB'ers) as the pancreas wont release more just because you've added loads of muscle/fat/tissue. The body will want to return to a homeostatic level. That could be the key then to growing past a genetic sticking point.

Just eating extra food when not using insulin, and not burning it off, makes you fat because of the overspill. Energy in v energy out, but we want more energy in to gain muscle weight and not fat weight. Increasing the uptake of nutrients is a good thing. Using exogenous insulin is the answer but using too much isnt IMHO.

So imo AM and PWO is too soon to use insulin. A low blood sugar level isn’t the ideal time. A high, or post prandial time makes more sense to me. And minimal use of it too.

[hilly]

What you are saying kingprop makes sense but from what i gather people have been using slin pwo for years with very good results and not getting fat.

Would they have benefited more from doing it this way do you think??

[kingprop]

That may be true but what was available years ago? The fastest insulin was actrapid, but act rapidly it did not. Now Humalog, and more recently Novorapid was introduced. Now these are fast, and have a shorter duration. But same old protocol is being used.

[Delhi]

My protocol was PWO with humalogR, took shake and carbs (50 protien and 40g carbs), then 1 hour later solid meal containing the same.

I did blood test every 15 mins too LOL

TBH as I said earlier i think slin is out now for me.

IGF and GH sure, but slin no

[Aftershock]

Originally Posted by kingprop

So imo AM and PWO is too soon to use insulin. A low blood sugar level isn’t the ideal time. A high, or post prandial time makes more sense to me. And minimal use of it too.

OK so coming back to the original question, how long after eating your breakfast or PWO meal would you wait before you assumed your body had released the majority of its natural insulin?

Because its at this point you are recommending a small shot of slin right?

[MXD]

Originally Posted by kingprop

That may be true but what was available years ago? The fastest insulin was actrapid, but act rapidly it did not. Now Humalog, and more recently Novorapid was introduced. Now these are fast, and have a shorter duration. But same old protocol is being used.

Novo rapid peaks after 1.5 hours though. But has an onset of 10 mins.

There fore if you jab pwo have a high gi carb drink and the a meal an hour later, the pancreas wil still release the insulin for the high gi carbs post say 75g dex for 10iu (natty production).

Then 1.5 hours later the other 10iu peaks topping up your own insluin?

Also insulin pwo will instantly stop catabolic action, which is well worth its use directly pwo.

[LordDecider]

As a healthcare professional I have to urge EXTREME caution with the use of both oral hypoglycaemics and insulin. Insulin in particular, if used incorrectly, can be fatal, and I would be concerned that first-time users would be particularly susceptible to misuse. If you do take it please ensure that you have a source of rapidly absorbed glucose around. In the healthcare setting we also use products such as Hypostop (a glucose gel rubbed into the gums) or glucagon.

Play safe.

LD

[kingprop]

So use your natural production of insulin to stop catabolism. Why do you want so much extra then? Extra stopping? Super-hyper nutrient uptake? It doesnt happen. Depending on what your PWO meal is you have a peak of 10ius hitting you between 1 and 3 hours (this onset and duration has only been measured in diabetics btw) So if thats one hour you'll have a hypo as you've only eaten your 75gs carbs (enough to replenish glycogen stores depending on how hard you've worked out) and release your bodies 10ius, you will be fast going into low BS for the novorapid to take effect. Go home, have a shower and you will run into problems as the hot shower itself can have an effect on blood movement and speed up the hypo.

Unless you are drinking your PWO shake (50g whey iso, 75g WMS lets say) and then eating immediately (at the gym preferably) and cutting down dose, it just seems too risky for me. When humalog came along a lot of BB'ers messed up. Since Novorapid has, more have.

Your PWO meal consists of what? Protein and moderate GI carbs? That will take a while to raise BS levels. You may run into problems and then use sugar to combat your hypo. All that sugar will impair amino acid uptake.


10ius is a very large amount for you to be taking. You'll get fat, full of water, distended in the stomach or dead. Bet you dont get bigger. Especially with Novorapid.

If I was training in the evening I wouldnt use insulin. Depending on what time you're done, how hard you have worked and worked out during the day, what you've eaten during the day etc will all have a bearing on BS levels - and then you'll want to go to sleep at some point. I used too, but dont anymore and advise others not too.

All I am saying is that ive tried the post workout, silly amount thing and it did nothing but cause me trouble. Didnt make me any bigger in the way I wanted (muscular) Changing to minimal use at meal times (as meal is finished) and minimal means 2ius for most, has had much better results and virtually zero side effects.

[jjb1]

if you took blood test with and with out the post work out protocal and with this covered the whole 3 hour after injection of slin couldnt you figure out if this really is something really is in this?

i know some of the top guys have used slin massively and consistanty which helped take the sport to new levels of size some belive, have all these guys missed out on this info then?

if you watch ronnie in one of his videos he waits for a beeper to sound before tucking into his breakfast i was convinced this was slin use in the morning

from doing loads of reading myself i noticed alot of top guys taking slin maybe 4 times a day at 6 - 10iu shots and also shots pwo and this brings you into the years of humalog ect

with the post work out shot here i totally understand you have created a natural window and your body will suck up nutrition anyways but surely you may multiply this and force thew muscle to accept much more then your natural self could? creating a bigger window so to speak?

you seem to have massive knoledge on this kingprop and make alot of sense im just supprised no one else has targeted this problem..........

[kingprop]

It really is justan interest mate. Im learning and experimenting now after doing the 10iu PWO regimen. Im sure, and agree with posts here that its individual and down to genetics etc but im also sure that blanket advice concerning 'shoot slin then eat' is a recipe for disaster. With GH and IGF more readily available and cheaper than ever a lot of guys I meet are considering using them all together when off gear when physically it shouldnt even be a consideration for them.

With have the whole psyche to deal with when coming off gear, we understand we should let HPTA recover for our own health etc and im just scared as well that too many guys will mess up with the old protocol especially when using the faster insulins which have only just come available. Im not preaching to anyone, just want to discuss it. If we dont discuss and try alternative lower dose regimes, and more and more folk end up in A+E we will bring this to the news and end up shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak with all our 'special supplements'

Ive also nearly doubled my bodyweight in 15 years of bodybuilding, and had reached a plateaux in growth. I guess only time will tell if what im practicing currently will have a major effect. Whats for sure though is PWO large doses werent working for me and since switching to this it seems to be.

[jjb1]

its an important intrest though bro your totally right about gh igf1 slin becoming very common

i did alot of reading when i started slin and had some not so good results did more reading then had better ones but im really interested in slin shots with meals i posted a thread not long back as i was more cunfused with the fat intake while basically using slin all day but some mods gave some interesting points on it and info mentioning the explination of olympia sizes breakfasts being consumed with slin timing ect


if you get time could you list your current protocol ie

wake

meal 1

meal 2 (slin amount and timing to meal)

and so on.........

many thanks

[kingprop]

No worries. Currently choosing three days per week to use it. Mon/Wed/Fri. The week just gone has been only 4ius Humalog each meal 2xd. Ive also taken 500mgs metformin with these shots.

Meal one as described before is more of a grab and rush affair as im always in a hurry/lazy git and also any AM insulin shot before has left me in trouble at times especially when getting up toward 6-8ius. Its not good turning up to work sweating and shaking and looking pale faced. So its normally whey and water first thing. Cup of tea/coffee with fructose or sweetner. Banana or 2 occasionally. Maybe a yoghurt. Protein flapjack or bar to eat on way. Sometimes porridge if time allows. Consumed around 7.30am.

Meal two around 9.00-10am. This week used 4ius humalog. Ive been looking recently for a good supplement for this protocol and have bought 8 tubs of Myprotein MP Max weight gainer (where before I was mixing my own concoction up) It contains per 100g:

411 kCals
34g Protein (mixed sources)
46g Carbs (malto + ultra fine oats)
9.8g EFA's and MCT's (MCT's being why I chose it, I want to experiment this with them)
3.3g Fibre

So ive been eating 2 servings of this: http://www.ainsley-harriott.com/ains...cous-nutri.htm

100g = ~30g carbs (+~30g carbs from added extras)
and adding in sultanas, chopped dried apricots, raw chashews and diced turkey breast. Prepared the night before all in a tub ready to go. 500mgs metformin with first mouthfull.

And drink one and half servings (150g) of the weight gainer with water. I then shoot the 4ius once finished.

I train between 12-2pm usually. Drink carbs during (10% mix) Have PWO shake and PWO meal.

Meal four is around 4pm-4.30pm. Could be 2 jacket potatoes, tin beans, tin tuna. 500mgs metformin with first mouthfull.

Bang another shake in. Once done 4ius humalog.

Evening meal with the family 6pm (say fresh grilled mackerel + salad) something before bed, could be shake or whey + milk or another meal depends on how hungry I am.

I always have something on hand with me be it glucose tabs or fruit but the essence of it is to consume moderate GI foods all day keeping a constant in BS levels.

Other items used are 10ius blue top split into 2x5iu shots tues and thurs (20ius/w)
400mgs test prop mon/wed/fri (1200mgs/w)

The only other things I can use are test suspension (but hate daily jabs) Dbol (but hate the acne) and Tbol (cant get any!!)

Anything else - winny, anavar, deca, EQ, masteron, proviron, longer ester tests, I cant use as they give me cluster headaches due to being a DHT deriv, or hanging around too long in my system.

If my quads grow any, lol , ill be happy its working!

[aussieboy]

im in Long r3 Igf-1 and ive read up some people saying its best to do 4 weeks on igf-1 and for weeks on insulin.....??? is it bad to do it together?

[Dragon555]

Originally Posted by kingprop

400mgs test prop mon/wed/fri (1200mgs/w)

Damn! no wonder your KingProp! lol can u take tren tho?

so if you were only shooting 2iu slin per shot could you get away with just a low Gi meal without a shake or would you still need a shake with every meal, how many 2iu shots would be enough to see good results? eg. if you done 1shot (2iu, after protein/carb meal) mon/wed/fri would that be enough or more?