Pscarb

i never said SKD was ideal for training i said you can weight train whilst on SKD as well you know as you said you cannot

I base my advice on years of putting it into practice as i have found that as with most diet methods they don't react in the human body as they do on paper, hence why i always state i have seen and done a certain method myself.

if you are saying you have done SKD and was not able to weight train then that is fair enough but if you are just quoting what a paper or article says then i suggest you try it in the real world.....

as for round 2 i am up for a debate mate as you know as long as you don't insist we take it to PM half way through

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Lost Soul

Sure I will let you take it up with lyle instead and address his points

Taken from:

The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter & the Practitioner
Lyle Mcdonald (2000)

P85

Although the details of exercise physiology are discussed in chapter 18 through 20, it is a
fact that a ketogenic diet can not sustain high intensity exercise for very long. This mandates
that carbohydrates be introduced into the SKD. Chapters 10 through 12 include discussions of
muscle glycogen and depletion as well as the modifications to the SKD which can be made to
sustain exercise while maintaining ketosis.

P120

In addition to the standard ketogenic diet (SKD), this book also details two modifications
which have been made to the SKD. As discussed in forthcoming chapters on exercise, a SKD
cannot sustain high-intensity exercise performance such as weight training or high-intensity
aerobic training and carbohydrates must be integrated to the SKD in some fashion.
There are two primary types of ‘modified ketogenic diets’ which incorporate carbohydrate
intake within the structure of a SKD. The first of these is the Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) in
which individuals consume carbohydrates around exercise only. This allows for a maintenance of
exercise performance and glycogen resynthesis without interrupting ketosis for long periods of
time.
The second type of ‘modified ketogenic diet’ is the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet or CKD. The
CKD alternates periods of a ketogenic diet (generally 5-6 days) with periods of high carbohydrate
intake (1-2 days).
Typically the TKD is used by those individuals who either can not or will not perform the
longer carb-load of the cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD) or by individuals who are just starting
exercise programs and are not ready to perform the amount of exercise needed to make the CKD
work.
The CKD is typically aimed at individuals who are more advanced in terms of their exercise
programs (i.e. bodybuilders) due to the high volume and intensity of training needed to optimize
the diet. Before discussing the TKD and CKD in chapters 11 and 12, some general comments are
made regarding glycogen levels and rates of glycogen depletion. This chapter discusses glycogen
levels and depletion, topics which apply to both the TKD and CKD.

P123

Glycogen levels in muscle vary depending on a number of factors including diet and training
status. While there is a small amount of glycogen resynthesized following exercise even if no
carbohydrates are consumed, the amount is insignificant and will not be able to sustain exercise
performance for more than a few workouts.
Since high-intensity activity such as weight training can only use carbohydrate as fuel, a
SKD will not be able to sustain high-intensity exercise performance. This mandates that
carbohydrate be introduced into the SKD without disrupting the effects of ketosis. The two
primary ways to introduce carbohydrate to the SKD are the CKD, which allows a period of high
carbohydrate consumption lasting from 24-48 hours every week, or the TKD where the dieter
consumes carbohydrates around training.

P215

Regardless of the ultimate cause of fatigue during weight training, glycogen depletion has
the potential to decrease performance through one of several mechanisms. Until more research
is done, we can only speculate as to the exact cause of fatigue. For the purpose of the ketogenic
diet, the exact cause of fatigue is more an academic question than a practical one. It is a basic
physiological fact that Type II fibers require glycogen to function optimally. Therefore, a SKD
will eventually decrease performance as well as inhibit muscle growth. Individuals who wish to
weight train on a ketogenic diet will have to consume carbohydrates at some point.

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Pscarb

so in response to my question of if you have tried it or you are going on papers from other the answer is the latter one then??

i have seen many men and women diet on SKD for 11 weeks whilst training and performing cardio without consuming carbs, i have seen this with my own eyes and i have seen these people then carb up and compete so you are saying this cannot be done?

In 2004 i competed and won my local show in the last 6 weeks i used a SKD diet and did not use any carbs that would take me out of ketosis yet i still trained and did cardio granted i was weaker than normal but i did it myself or was i dreaming??

please LS tell me about your practical experiance with not being able to train whilst on SKD i really would love to hear it, is this round 2??

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Pscarb

so i have been reading up on a few sites about Lyle's theory's and it seems that is what they are theory's i get the distinct impression the he has taken the atkins diet (SKD) and added some carbs around PWO then called it the TKD although he does not say you cannot train using the SKD as you have stated LS he says you cannot train with SKD at a high intensity but you can train.....

this is a snippet from one site speaking of the SKD.....
Lyle has expanded upon the low-carb theories of Dr. Atkins, with an eye toward weight training. He warns that the standard Atkin's style low carb will hurt your weight training after a fairly short period of time as there's not enough muscle glycogen to fuel a strong workout not long after beginning a ketosis-based diet. Others disagree, so again it appears to be an individual thing to test for yourself.
the section in bold means personel experiance you might want to try it some time....

from my own experiance this is not the best way to go for muscle growth but you can certainly train using the method...

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adesign

If you read back you will find that in some form I stated I wanted to move onto a TKD, and was asking about sensible pre/post work out carbs, in what form/time period should be taken. Yes I have researched but everything is conflicted.
Also if im doing a 5 day split I will be spending a lot of time outside ketosis, will this still be effective?

Thank you :]

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Lost Soul

Paul

I read the book about 5 years ago, tried it, lost energy, muscle and the will to live.
I dont mind if you want to debunk the theory but end of the day I will go on what lyle presents backed up byt the 150-200 references used in the book

I honestly doubt you will find anyone who beleievs or advocates SKDs and bodybuilding but each to their own though

Adesign

This book is good mate

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ketogenic-Di...5317553&sr=1-1

it will get you thinking on the carbs you can use, the theory behind them and if you feel TKD, CKD or something else suits you

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Pscarb

LS it is not a matter of me debunking the theory it is me disagreeing with the fact you said you cannot train while following this diet which is wrong i and many others have done it...
believe what you want mate that is everyones choice but don't blow off my opinion of it just because you do not agree, i have seen it work yet i would not recommend it long term as nowadays thee are better ways to do things...

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Greekgoddess

Am I the only person who can go low/zero carb and still feel full of energy, as I normally am?

In the past I followed zero carb diets for weeks before a contest. In the long run I lost too much muscle by not replacing the carbs with good fats and high protein intake and having too low a calorie intake . I did not lose strength or energy in training though.

At the moment I am carb cycling, have kept the good fats and high protein, and it is working. I am keeping the muscle, losing the bodyfat and feel great, with tons of energy.

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Pscarb

No you are not GG... as long as you replace the carbs with fats you won't drop energy you and many others have done this

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Lost Soul

The brain loves ketones once you are there life is A OK in terms of mood, mental energy

Literature has shown women can lower carbs and calories further as % of their maintenance TDEE than men before they lose muscle, strength and lower metabolic rate

Paul is this something you have thoughts on?

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Slamdog

just had a look at it.... 60 quid... anyone have the pdf?

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Lost Soul

yes but that would be wrong to send it out and break copyright

it can though be collected from http://www.anonymousbodybuilding.com/ebooks.html
for those with no morals or feeling the 'credit crunch'

you dont though get the hard bound version

PM me if you get stuck and i will try and find more info for you

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Chris4Pez

Hi i have gone onto that web site as this is a book i would like to read but again have not got the £60 to spend on a book, so can anyone PM me a copy of the PDF please

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hackskii

I have myself gone on the Atkins diet and trained.
I didnt really get into full blown ketosis, but I will share my experiances here.

First of all I love the keto type diets, I end up not being as hungry, I am full of energy and my one rep max does not change, with any lift.
I do train on a keto diet and any diet, I have always trained.
But, here is what I do notice besides fat loss.

I have read Lyle's book, I did not agree with everything he writes, but here goes.

On a keto diet after I am in it, I notice no loss in strength with the exception of stamina, I will lose reps but not strength, it is like the energy is there for the first half of the set, but I tend to die early, I can still about get the same reps, but not at the end.

As far as muscle loss, I did not notice this, I did notice some muscle fullness but that is expected with a keto diet being depleted anyway.

Another thing I noticed was some freaky bad smells, this was about week 6 or 8, and I honestly dont like that smell I was getting, it was funky.
I also noticed some stalling, this I suspect either had to do with cortisol, or thyroid, or a combination of both.
I started adding back in the carbs very slowly and weight loss started back.

Keto diets work well for those that are kind of pudgy, I would not recommend them for contest preperations, I would recommend them for those that dont lift weights, have known many to have alot of success with this.

Only problem is most guys that lift weights with any intensity they usually are sugar burners, one might be able to get the energy calories from fats, I suspect beings that carbs bloat me and then I crave them that the lower carbs in my diet probably keep me from getting fatter.
This might be due to age too.

My 9 year old daughter is very active and can live on sugar and highly processed carbs, I can not.

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