dudeson

Ok so I have been reading all over here about keto diets. That sticky was awesome, but I just have more questions, in general about the diet and specifically towards my own diet. I posted on there a question about cardio. Pscarb said to do more solid workouts, ex: walking 40 min. Now I have been doing cardio everyday, sometimes twice a day, and lifting at night. A few things that I would like to know, especially because I spent $180 on groceries yesterday, is...

Cardio; why not higher intensity?

Food, I think I have a pretty good grasp on what to eat, but to be honest, I don't think I could even eat as much food as pscarb suggested in some of the example diets. Is this a problem as long as I'm eating the right foods?
How many grams of fat do I need to be getting?
Minimum and maximum?

How about my lifting; should I be hitting it hard, doing high reps with lots of sets, doing push pull kind of workouts or split training?

Also, my final question: I have winstrol, Tbol, and clen, and I was wondering where these should fit in? I will probably hold off on the winny and tbol, but I have been using the clen for about 2 weeks now, and I think I will try ECA in the next few days when I'm off it. When I first tried the clen I had a friend whol told me how to use it, I went 5 weeks, cycled it up, then just dropped it. For about a week I slept a min. of 15 hours a day due to the rebound. It seems like the two weeks on and off would be best. My whole teen adult life I have always been the biggest and stronges out of all of my friends. I have always been the big guy with the most bulk, but also with a decent amount of fat, never comfortable with my shirt off. I have spent years lifting and excercising, and now I'm 23 and I would like to have people say even once that I was their muscular friend, rather than a bulky one. Thanks for any advice, and I know this thread is already dragging on......

hackskii

So, you are on a keto diet?
You want to do a cycle?
You are asking about workout intensity?

Bro, do you want to cut, lose bodyfat?

Lost Soul

All the questions below should then be answered

Can do it but you wiull find it hard, I would certainly leave it out whilst you are trying to establish the state of ketosis. There is a requirement for carbohydrates when doing intense cardio and ketones or fat are not a great substrate to be doing this. other may say HIIT is fine, i beg to differ from science, logic and experience

I assume you are cutting?

You cannot bend the laws of thermondynamics regardless of what mr atkins said about eating as much as you want as long as it wasnt carbs.

If your TDEE is 2500 and you eat 3000 calories a day you will add weight...period

Now the answer to your question is how are you structring your diet? CKD or TKD?

now protein is ~1gram per pound of body fat once in ketosis, fat is enough to take you vback up to a point where metabo.ic slow down does not occur YET you are still hypocaloric. Work that out yourself
carbs once in letosis have to ideally be below 100g per day if not lower

remember you have to be hypocaloric and too much protein is not ideal either to stay in ketosis, top up calories beyond your 1gram per lb with fats

high reps does not get you cut, lift the way you were and decide how to structure your carb intake whether it be a CKD like body opus or TKD where you eat carbs around training

gear has nothing to do with ketosis and TB it sounds like this can be scrapped from your plans.

NOW NOW NOW

Ketogenic diets are not required to get lean and they do not suit everybody. When you get them wrong they are sh1te and you will lose muscle, feel like sh1te and lift like a puff.

Now all you need to do is get in a caloried deficit and not go too low

If you know what you are doing and your metabolism suits keto diets do the.

If you dont, and with all due respect i dont think you do, i dont advise muddling your way through one just because it sounds good

hackskii

Yah, some fair well on keto diets and some dont.
There are problems associated with keto diets.
I love them personally, but only for about 6 weeks then they tend to stall, I belive this has to do with thyroid more than anything else.

There are modifications of keto diets that work too.
I tend to feel good on them and hardly ever hungry once in ketosis.
But they are not for everyone.

dudeson

ok, so yes I am trying to cut, I have always just lifted and have a fair amount of muscle, and for once it would be nice to look more cut and show off that hard work,

I'm not even worried about a cycle right now, I was more hoping to try another cycle once I got my body fat a lot lower and wasn't dieting so stricktly, I did however plan on still cycling in some clen every few weeks.


I think I was missunderstood about what I said about not being able to eat as much as pscarb suggested. I meant that I just cant' eat all that food, it's just too much. Even though I'm a pretty big guy, I have never really been able to eat like one.


I am on a caloric defecit right now, and I have been getting anywhere from 30 to 60 grams of carbs for about a week now, I'm taking in about 1700 cal./day. Don't know if I am in ketosis, I feel kind of light headed, a fair amount of time, and my lifts have gone down a little, but I read up more and decided to just keep pounding out my same routines as far as lifting goes, and I have been trying to go for longer periods of time doing cardio, a little lower intensity, and I have dropped about 5 lbs, I'm sure most of it's water.

I never feel hungry, but also that's because I eat or snack every 2 hours, with tons of water, so I'm always full. I have natty pb, couple times a day, cashews, and fish oil,lots of chicken and eggs, and some salmon, maybe a little cottage cheese. Couple of servings of a brocolli, califlour, and carrot mix. And a Green salad every other day, mostly I enjoy the vegies more than salad.



1 gram per lb of body fat? Is that a day, I was measured and have about 45 lbs of bodyfat, does that mean I should only be getting 45 grams of protein?

And, does it seem like what I said above is enough fats?

Pscarb said to have an hour once a week to just sit down and eat a bunch of carbs, is this a good idea? Is this to shock the body, or just to appease my carb cravings, because if it wont help I wont do it.

Thanks for replying, this is very important to me and I want to do it right, and I trust what you guys are saying so thanks.

hackskii

I remember on my keto diet I ate cheese, meats, hell even bacon, I lost well, I didnt count as there was a deficit and I was losing almost about 3 pounds a week, so I didnt modify anything.
I am sure I was eating more than 45 grams of protein a day, I was almost eating that in eggs alone.....lol

I cant eat huge amounts of food anymore.......

You can eat carbs during certain refeed days, generally it would be the last two meals and those meals will be low in protein and fats.

dudeson

Really!? The last two, I just assumed that the least damaging time (towards my diet goals) would be like one meal in the morning so I had a chance to work some of those carbs off throughout the day, but the last two huh? SHOULD I do this? Will it be beneficial for me, or is just so I don't crave carbs?

And if I should do this, is two meals better or one, because I don't NEED two, but it that's the best thing to do then I will.

And I do have to say, it's kind of nice being able to eat very little and still feel satisfied, I feel very euphoric lately, almost buzzed. And, I had a shot of vodka last night and normally one shot would do nothing, but I was about instantly buzzed!

Tall

Thermodynamics doesn't really apply to diets I'm afraid, as I'm sure you know all calories are not equal - fast acting vs slow acting carbohydrates, carbs which fill muscle rather than liver glycogen, MCTs vs other fats etc etc

Studys have shown (Response of body weight to a low carbohydrate, high fat diet in normal and obese subjects, H. Kasper 1, H. Thiel , and M. Ehl) that consumption of double TDEE from a ketogenic diet will result in minimal fat storage. If you did this using carbs odds are you'd find lipid storage in the adipose tissue occuring rather quickly.

However on a keto diet you can cut calories quite sharply with a better sense of well being than on a standard hypocaloric diet (Nutrient Intake of Subjects on Low Carbohydrate Diet Used in Treatment of Obesity, ANNE L. STOCK and JOHN YUDKIN )

Personally I beleive catabolism to be somewhat overstated on keto diets - I've not seen any scientific evidence, rather it seems to come from inexperienced board members who don't realise how fat they are initially or are not utilising a weekly refeed to refuel muscle glycogen stores and end up looking 'flat'.

My personal thoughts are this (based on my personal experience, and experiences of people I've trained) - for a long term keto diet to work along side training a combination of approaches needs to be used in order to elicit the desired results. I personally beleive that a weekly refeed is required to reset leptin levels, and that for best performance carbs should be consumed pre workout.

I've been running this approach for a while now, and using strength as a measure of performance my lifts have gone up in the range of 20%-30% while continuing to get leaner.

In addition, I've tested just how badly cheating affects performance / size - as anecdotally it's been claimed if you start the diet and then fail to stick to it part of the way thorugh you will be badly affected - this I do not beleive to be the case, or as a very minimum is overstated.

The main issue however is peoples ability to stick to the diet. Given that carbs are somewhat 'addictive', most people find a shift to a keto diet hard to stick to.

I'd certainly give a keto a go (combination of TKD+CKD) and see how you get on.

Lost Soul

Are you suggesting law number 2 doesnt apply? what you are suggesting is true, the TEF and insulin rewsponse of foods differs but realistically it doesnt allow for rule number two to be abused significantly...in fact i think lyle McD stated this in his original book with SOME data to back it up

Agree if they do become ketogenic rather than not. ketones are protein sparing but some dont reach ketosis and shed muscle not just glycogen. So get in a state of ketosis and you are correct, dont make it on a low carb diet and up the cardio and you lose it

This is why the switch to lowered protein, higher fats proves better than higher protein and fcuk all else

Agree again, dont get me wrong, i like keto diets when:

1 they are structured well
2 adhered to
3 the persons metabolism suits them

Mine doesnt, period and this is from anecdotal evidence plus some testing (for what its worth)

I love ketogenic diets and believe many can actually live on TKD and to some extent CKDs although the former is easier

The sedentry lifestyle in the western world and an RER to suit is more than logical to take on a keto diet.

My issues with the original poster were the fact that:

-The knowledge didnt seem to be there
-It was a case of "that looks good, i will have go" (yet if you or i controlled that diet it may be well)
-The adherence to a KD is more of an issue for people
-The fine line between inducing ketosis and having a sh1te low carb diet is very fine and hard to monitor

dudeson

Ok, so can we get some opinions on weekly refeeds? What would be some ideal foods to eat,

When?

How much?

I went a full 6 days of about 30 to 60 grams of carbs, if that. And today for lunch I had a pizza, and a long awaited beer.

oops, I know the pizza has a good deal of fat, and protein, and sugar. Would it have been better to maybe opt for a big thing of garlic bread. The pizza made me sick as a dog, I don't know if I ate too much, but I felt like I was going to hurl and I started sweating, I took a nap for 3 hours, but on the plus side, I did chest tonight as I figured the extra carb intake would be a nice boost for some heavy pressing, and it WAS! I did weights that I haven't done in 6 months, and for my normal rep range too!

I feel pretty good on this diet, my mood is improving, that could just be because I feel better about myself lately because I've been working so hard. My veins are popping like crazy, my forearms are like the nile river and I'm really seeing some veins in my calves! Ya, keep posting up advice guys!
__________________

hackskii

More here than just diffrent GI carbs.
Protein takes more fuel to digest than lets say fats.
Fiber as well, 35 grams of fiber takes about 250 calories to try to break that down.
All calories are not created equal in the digestion of things.


I too agree that keto diets are not as catabolic as some suggest.
I didnt lose overall strength but I did lose stamina when on a keto diet.

In the early 1900’s they used to treat epilepsy with ketogenic diets, they worked very well. With the introduction of anti-seizure medications now, keto diets are only used when the anti-seizure medications alone won’t work. Many studies have been done on epilepsy and keto diets where the subjects were on the keto diets for years to control seizures, with no specific health effects.

Lost Soul

They are not catabolic scott, people make them catabolic by not getting into ketosis through high protein low fat and low carb combinations

hackskii

There are some on the boards that suggest it is catabolic due to glycogen stores and loss of glycogen compromising training.
I think this is why they think they are catabolic.
But as much as the brain loves carbs, it also loves ketones.

I feel the biggest benefits from keto diets is the ability to not overfeed on them. When I am on them they work well and keep my appetite at bay.
When I eat carbs, some serious overfeeding can happen.

I have read some good studies on keto diets.

I have that book by Lyle McDowel(sp) on keto diets.
I dont mind sharing either.....lol

dudeson

well, it seems you guys are more intent upon showing off knowledge rather than answering some specific questions, maybe I'll just go get that book then.

Lost Soul

Go fcuk yourself and learn some manners
I spent quite a while this morning offering help