If excess bodyfat is carbohydrates then? - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

Karl Sanders · 22-04-2006, 11:01 AM

Say like me you have some excess bodyfat, and are just about to start building muscle. If you need carbohydrates to build muscle (as is obviously the case) then why can't you just eat more protein and use the excess carbohydrates that your body has stored as flab, that way you can get bigger muscles and lose bodyfat, or can the body just not release the stored carbohydrates fast enough?
I have heard that newbies do lose some excess bodyfat when they start out, how long does this last for, I am now only about 5 pounds overweight (having lost 30 pounds since Jan 06) can I expect to lose this 5 pounds before the "newbie" effect wears off, bearing in mind that most of the extra protein I will be getting is from lean whey protein (but not protein isolate).
Thanks

**Pscarb** · 22-04-2006, 11:22 AM

Excess bodyfat is body fat from excess calories....

you do need an amount of carbs to help build muscle but the amount you need with be diffrent from person to person.
for example i can build on 200-300g per day where i know guys who cannot unless they eat in excess of 500g....

the newbie effect you speak about is because you are now doing more exercise than you used to which in turn will burn calories, if the body has calories from ffod available it will tap into this fuel source first but if you have no fuel from carbs available then your body will switch to fat for fuel....but this is not a simple as it sounds.

what you need to do is to construct an eating plan that will be suited to yourself with a starting macro amount of.
Protein = 1-1.5g per lb of bodyweight
Carbs = 2-3g per lb of bodyweight
Fats = .25g per lb of bodyweight

this type of eating will allow you to build new muscle whilst monotoring your energy levels and bodyfat...

remember though that you need to eat good fats in a diet....

hope this helps mate.

Karl Sanders · 22-04-2006, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the advice, but what if i take your advice about the amount of protein and fat I need daily, but deliberately have fewer carbs (I don't mean starve myself of carbs, but lets say I only have 1.5 X bodyweight) will this make my body use of the carbs in my flab?

**Pscarb** · 22-04-2006, 03:02 PM

there is no carbs in your flab please get this out of your head your flab is fat pure and simple it is caused by excess calories be that from fat/carbs or protein the end result if stored by the body is fat..

the only way to increase the use of your fat stores is to burn more cals than you take in you can accomplish this by training and performing cardio...
you could switch to a carb cycling style diet which would increase the use of fat by the body by decreasing the amount of carbs in the diet but not eliminating them altogether.
i have created a post called timed carbs in this forum check it out this will explain things a little better.

**hackskii** · 22-04-2006, 06:40 PM

Basicly if you have more carbohydrates intake than you can store in the muscle and liver which is about 220-500 grams depending on the amount of lean muscle. You will store those excess carbohydrates as fat.
Not rocket science here.
The liver stores about 120 grams of glucose, the rate of burn is about 5 grams of carbs per hour.
After about 24 hours of zero carbs the liver glucose levels will be depleted.

If your glycogen stores are full and your liver is full, you WILL store that as fat, the body is just using this for the future. This is called spillover.
Avoiding this is a good thing if fat loss is preferred.

Keeping the glucagon to insulin ratio level or in check, you will allow the body to tap into its fat stores via glucagon, and also tap in to the anabolic effects of insulin.

Too much insulin for too long will end up taking over and more fat will be gained, this is not a good idea due to the bad effects of too much insulin for long periods of time, inflammation, heart disease, bodyfat, carbohydrate addictions, etc.

Insulin drives down blood sugars, glucagon drives up blood sugars, insulin is anabolic but also promotes fat storage, glucagon is catabolic but also burns fat.

The whole idea is to keep the glucagon to insulin ratio in order and you can build muscle and lose bodyfat easier if this is done.

Most people are sugar burners (insulin), to get into fat loss you need to be a fat burner (glucagon).

**hackskii** · 23-04-2006, 02:28 AM

Oh, sorry I forgot this little part of the equation

Carbohydrates drive up insulon (so does large meals, regardless of macro).
Protein drives up glucagon.

Reading above, this is important.
Anyone see a key here?

Tatyana · 24-04-2006, 11:22 AM

Hun,

your body will store anything in excess into fat. Protein into fat, fat into fat, not just carbohydrates. It's clever that way.

Certain amino acids also kick off insulin. Insulin is released every 15 minutes from your pancreas no matter what you do.

Refined carbohydrates like white flower and sugar are a problem in excess, yes, however whole grains, IMO are not that bad.

Insulin is not a transport hormone, it is a hormone of nutrient storage, and not just glucose as glycogen, trigs as fat, but also amino acids into the muscles.

Yes I get reducing carbs for people who have eaten the typical N. American fast food diet is a good idea. I have read somewhere that it is the hydrogenated fats that block up the glucose transporters.

I think that people can burn their pancreas out from eating loads of sugar and refined carbs as well.

x
x
x
T

**hackskii** · 24-04-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana

Insulin is not a transport hormone, it is a hormone of nutrient storage, and not just glucose as glycogen, trigs as fat, but also amino acids into the muscles.

Insulin is a transport hormone.
It transports into the muscles and into adipose tissue. Without insulin this process won’t work. It is a transport hormone, and considered a storage hormone too.
If I want to send a package somewhere it gets picked up transported to its destination and then dropped off.
It is the same with insulin.

For clarity sake, it is easier for the body to store fat calorie for calorie with carbohydrates.
The higher the GI of the carb this is accelerated even more.
If you are trying to tell me that fat will store like a carb calorie for calorie this is incorrect.
Some fats have zero effect on insulin.
Without this storage hormone the fat wont store as fat.

The body is pretty smart with fat. If eaten alone the body does not want a large supply of fat. You will never see a guy drink a glass of oil, eat a cube of butter, etc. you will see people eating fats and carbs together in large quantities.
The body knows its amounts of fat it needs.

On the grain issue, I for one think they are not a good idea to have in the diet, with the exception of some steel rolled oats, but with the introduction of the agricultural age we lost 5 inches in height.
The Paleolithic diet is much closer to where we need to be in my opinion.

We have been eating more processed carbohydrates than ever, society is getting fatter, the low fat suggestion of the past is part of the problem too, along with hydrogenated oils, trans fats and even polyunsaturated vegetables being some of the problem too.

Fat is your friend, fat wont make you fat, fat suppresses insulin.

basil · 24-04-2006, 03:03 PM

can any one give me some advice on my routine

**hackskii** · 24-04-2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basil

can any one give me some advice on my routine

Sure, start a new thread.
Oh, welcome to the board.

Peg · 24-04-2006, 03:10 PM

Basil make a thread in form and technique forum and post your training routine.
If it's diet and you want to lose fat, post it here.

There are many successful bodybuilders here who will help you sort out your routine.

Hackskii: SNAP!
lol
cheers

Tatyana · 25-04-2006, 02:36 AM

Scott,

Insulin does not carry any of the macronutrients anywhere.

By transportation do you mean this:

Insulin binds to the surface of cells, it has receptors called GLUT-1 through 5. There are different GLUT insulin receptors for different tissue types, i.e) RBCs, kidney, brain, muscle, etc.

These receptors then send a cascade signal response into the cell's cytoplasm. This causes glucose transporters to be mobilised to the cell's surface, which then transport glucose into the cell.

I could get some piccies of the GLUT receptors and the cascade system, and the glucose transporters.

The exact process by which glucose transports amino acids and fats into cells, well would have to look that up, but insulin does not transport nutrients through the bloodstream to the cells.

People get confused really easily hun. Like that lad that thought his flab was carbohydrates.

Did you see the thread about BBing myths on 'the other site' where we were discussing the easier fat storage when you eat fat and carbs together?

Ok so if we kick off with the carb thing again, play nice ok :love:

x
x
x
T

**Pscarb** · 25-04-2006, 09:29 AM

please don't make this thread over complicated the original poster is obvouisly new to the scene and i think everything he needs to know has allready been said any more information will just confuse him more and to be honest is not needed

Tatyana · 25-04-2006, 09:33 AM

True Paul

Scott and I do this A LOT! My bad!

x
x
x
T

**hackskii** · 25-04-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana

Did you see the thread about BBing myths on 'the other site' where we were discussing the easier fat storage when you eat fat and carbs together?

I have the book and it is pretty awesome called Natural Hormonal Enhancement.

Just for the record if you ate a potato with some butter on it the butter can store as fat.
But if you ate half the potato and added butter then the butter would lower the glycemic load of the potato and this would not store as easy.

Just so we are clear on this, it is the presence of carbohydrates (in volume) that will make fat store as fat, it is not the fat that is prone to fat storage but the presence of insulin from the carbohydrate.
Large volumes of food regardless of the macro can raise insulin and promote fat storage.

I will start a thread on topics from the book in a few days. I like the book but see some things that just dont add up.
I will take pieces and piece together an article explaining things from the book, as after 100 pages it is all info and little application.

22-04-2006, 11:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
Karl Sanders Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 44	If excess bodyfat is carbohydrates then? Say like me you have some excess bodyfat, and are just about to start building muscle. If you need carbohydrates to build muscle (as is obviously the case) then why can't you just eat more protein and use the excess carbohydrates that your body has stored as flab, that way you can get bigger muscles and lose bodyfat, or can the body just not release the stored carbohydrates fast enough? I have heard that newbies do lose some excess bodyfat when they start out, how long does this last for, I am now only about 5 pounds overweight (having lost 30 pounds since Jan 06) can I expect to lose this 5 pounds before the "newbie" effect wears off, bearing in mind that most of the extra protein I will be getting is from lean whey protein (but not protein isolate). Thanks Last edited by Karl Sanders; 22-04-2006 at 11:18 AM.

22-04-2006, 11:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,036	Excess bodyfat is body fat from excess calories.... you do need an amount of carbs to help build muscle but the amount you need with be diffrent from person to person. for example i can build on 200-300g per day where i know guys who cannot unless they eat in excess of 500g.... the newbie effect you speak about is because you are now doing more exercise than you used to which in turn will burn calories, if the body has calories from ffod available it will tap into this fuel source first but if you have no fuel from carbs available then your body will switch to fat for fuel....but this is not a simple as it sounds. what you need to do is to construct an eating plan that will be suited to yourself with a starting macro amount of. Protein = 1-1.5g per lb of bodyweight Carbs = 2-3g per lb of bodyweight Fats = .25g per lb of bodyweight this type of eating will allow you to build new muscle whilst monotoring your energy levels and bodyfat... remember though that you need to eat good fats in a diet.... hope this helps mate. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Admin at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Nutrition is your greatest anabolic agent everything else is just the icing on the cake

22-04-2006, 03:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,036	there is no carbs in your flab please get this out of your head your flab is fat pure and simple it is caused by excess calories be that from fat/carbs or protein the end result if stored by the body is fat.. the only way to increase the use of your fat stores is to burn more cals than you take in you can accomplish this by training and performing cardio... you could switch to a carb cycling style diet which would increase the use of fat by the body by decreasing the amount of carbs in the diet but not eliminating them altogether. i have created a post called timed carbs in this forum check it out this will explain things a little better. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Admin at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Nutrition is your greatest anabolic agent everything else is just the icing on the cake

22-04-2006, 06:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,049	Basicly if you have more carbohydrates intake than you can store in the muscle and liver which is about 220-500 grams depending on the amount of lean muscle. You will store those excess carbohydrates as fat. Not rocket science here. The liver stores about 120 grams of glucose, the rate of burn is about 5 grams of carbs per hour. After about 24 hours of zero carbs the liver glucose levels will be depleted. If your glycogen stores are full and your liver is full, you WILL store that as fat, the body is just using this for the future. This is called spillover. Avoiding this is a good thing if fat loss is preferred. Keeping the glucagon to insulin ratio level or in check, you will allow the body to tap into its fat stores via glucagon, and also tap in to the anabolic effects of insulin. Too much insulin for too long will end up taking over and more fat will be gained, this is not a good idea due to the bad effects of too much insulin for long periods of time, inflammation, heart disease, bodyfat, carbohydrate addictions, etc. Insulin drives down blood sugars, glucagon drives up blood sugars, insulin is anabolic but also promotes fat storage, glucagon is catabolic but also burns fat. The whole idea is to keep the glucagon to insulin ratio in order and you can build muscle and lose bodyfat easier if this is done. Most people are sugar burners (insulin), to get into fat loss you need to be a fat burner (glucagon). __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

23-04-2006, 02:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,049	Oh, sorry I forgot this little part of the equation Carbohydrates drive up insulon (so does large meals, regardless of macro). Protein drives up glucagon. Reading above, this is important. Anyone see a key here? __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

22-04-2006, 01:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
Karl Sanders Banned Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 44	Thanks for the advice, but what if i take your advice about the amount of protein and fat I need daily, but deliberately have fewer carbs (I don't mean starve myself of carbs, but lets say I only have 1.5 X bodyweight) will this make my body use of the carbs in my flab?

24-04-2006, 11:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
Tatyana My name is EARL Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On my bloody bike doing cardio Posts: 3,458	Hun, your body will store anything in excess into fat. Protein into fat, fat into fat, not just carbohydrates. It's clever that way. Certain amino acids also kick off insulin. Insulin is released every 15 minutes from your pancreas no matter what you do. Refined carbohydrates like white flower and sugar are a problem in excess, yes, however whole grains, IMO are not that bad. Insulin is not a transport hormone, it is a hormone of nutrient storage, and not just glucose as glycogen, trigs as fat, but also amino acids into the muscles. Yes I get reducing carbs for people who have eaten the typical N. American fast food diet is a good idea. I have read somewhere that it is the hydrogenated fats that block up the glucose transporters. I think that people can burn their pancreas out from eating loads of sugar and refined carbs as well. x x x T

24-04-2006, 03:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
basil Newbie Trainer Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1	can any one give me some advice on my routine

24-04-2006, 03:10 PM	#11 (permalink)
Peg Getting HUGE! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,468	Basil make a thread in form and technique forum and post your training routine. If it's diet and you want to lose fat, post it here. There are many successful bodybuilders here who will help you sort out your routine. Hackskii: SNAP! lol cheers __________________ "21st century man is not conquered by guns, nor by oppression, but by seduction." "Pride to the human heart is like lard to the pig." Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "The best punch is the one that is both first, last, and ends the fight." Last edited by Peg; 24-04-2006 at 03:14 PM.

25-04-2006, 02:36 AM	#12 (permalink)
Tatyana My name is EARL Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On my bloody bike doing cardio Posts: 3,458	Scott, Insulin does not carry any of the macronutrients anywhere. By transportation do you mean this: Insulin binds to the surface of cells, it has receptors called GLUT-1 through 5. There are different GLUT insulin receptors for different tissue types, i.e) RBCs, kidney, brain, muscle, etc. These receptors then send a cascade signal response into the cell's cytoplasm. This causes glucose transporters to be mobilised to the cell's surface, which then transport glucose into the cell. I could get some piccies of the GLUT receptors and the cascade system, and the glucose transporters. The exact process by which glucose transports amino acids and fats into cells, well would have to look that up, but insulin does not transport nutrients through the bloodstream to the cells. People get confused really easily hun. Like that lad that thought his flab was carbohydrates. Did you see the thread about BBing myths on 'the other site' where we were discussing the easier fat storage when you eat fat and carbs together? Ok so if we kick off with the carb thing again, play nice ok :love: x x x T

25-04-2006, 09:29 AM	#13 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,036	please don't make this thread over complicated the original poster is obvouisly new to the scene and i think everything he needs to know has allready been said any more information will just confuse him more and to be honest is not needed __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Admin at To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Nutrition is your greatest anabolic agent everything else is just the icing on the cake

25-04-2006, 09:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tatyana My name is EARL Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On my bloody bike doing cardio Posts: 3,458	True Paul Scott and I do this A LOT! My bad! x x x T