crazycacti

Mines been invaluable too ;)

Tatyana

Yes, This is my point! THe argument is POINTLESS to most peeps!

BACK TO BASICS! Most people do NOT even know what a carb is! So all this advanced diet stuff is just going to confuse people. THAT is what I mean by irresponsible.

One post from a newbie saying I want to lose weight, well, I think for most just getting BASICS about eating 'clean', of which I have given a definition, is probably more useful.

I WOULD NOT recommend a BB diet, low carb diet or keto diet to most people, these are quite advanced, and most people would just benefit with learning how to eat quite healthy, learning to limit 'cheats' to one meal or one day.

I was trying to get at this, obviously I did not explain myself all that well. Hackskii loves and hates all the higher education medical stuff, so I thought we could indulge ourselves a bit, but it really has just led to a bit of a messy argument! As I mentioned on another thread, mental masturbation!

I spent years working with environmental group, public education. There was a serious issue with pulp and paper mills using chlorine to bleach paper, generated dioxins, and an alternate oxygen bleaching process was available. I used to go into the principles of ecology and biomagnification of toxins, until I realised that most people did not have a CLUE as to what I was talking about. In a lot of neighbourhoods I found I got a better response, and more donations when I would just say 'Fish sick (had a picture of a fish with a lesion from VAncouver harbour as well), we clean water)'. I also learned how to say this in a couple of languages!

I think the same might apply to this thread.

Scott, you have studied diets for 20 years and yes, you knowledge is fantastic, I have altered a few thing as a result. You know this, you know I have taken you advice on board. HOWEVER, think about where you were when you started!

BABY steps man, BABY steps before most can walk and eventually RUN.

Respect

T

Tinytom

Sorry Taty you misunderstood me.

What I meant to say was that if you are going to argue these points at this level then you have to use journal references from recognised literature. Popular diet books don't count.

This thread is all about in depth discussion so no need to worry about beginners getting confused, lets discuss some of the greater macro issues.

TT

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Tatyana

I am glad you are using keto strips, however, there can be a great deal of error in using these strips. I have used them myself!

I am not convinced it is possible to do zero carbs, would you be able to post a days diet on zero carbs? What sort of food have absolutely zero carbs in them besides meat and dairy? I will look up cheese and milk.

I may have not made my point clear, I do have some concerns about the keto diet, just for the same reasons Mr. Venuto stated. THe number of people I have seen completely GET SERIOUSLY FAT after they come off the ATkins/keto diet is CRAZY! You are slowly reintroducing carbs, most people would not be aware of how to manage a keto diet correctly!

This is why I think it is irresponsible. Most people do not have the advanced knowledge and practice that you have had. I will state it again, JUST GO BACK TO WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED LOOKING INTO DIET, most people are CLUELESS!

The number of people that tell me they 'eat a healthy diet' and do not know why 'they can't lose weight', like my photographer, who went about 6 hours without eating and then had a coke and a banana for lunch, or my friend who asks me 'is vinager ok to eat' as she is putting it on her chips/fries, or all the people that think just because it says 'low fat' or healthy eating range that it is a good way to lose weight!

The worst is when people start telling me, very proudly I might add, that they have only had a low fat cup a soup for lunch and salad in the evening. THIS is what we are up against.

How many posts do we get about people wanting to start on Clem, or even worse, T3, when we probably know that they REALLY haven't looked PROPERLY into their diet or exercise!

They want the magic bullet, the quick fix, and a lot of people on this forum KNOW that while it may be quite a SIMPLE process to lose weight/body fat for most people, it is NOT EASY.

So KISS Hackskii (Keep It Simple Stupid)!

Respect
T
:love:

Tatyana

OH I wish I had more TIME, my Uni library has rows and rows of all of the major nutritional and physiology journals, as does the hospital library! I have an Athens account, but I often find I have to visit more than one library and dig the papers out from the stacks!

I get the feeling I may have to do this though, maybe we need to move this thread into an advanced section!

I am still learning loads about diet and training, it has been a LONG PROCESS, and there are all sorts of issue besides the hard cold scientific facts tied up with people and what they eat. People who get to be seriously overweight, IMO do it either because

1. They are really not aware of the effect of food on the body
2. They have never learned/been taught how to feed themselves properly
3 They are using food as a drug, self-medication to make themselve feel better
4. They really are completely unconscious/unaware of what they are actually feeding themselves and need a 'reality check'

I didn' really want to get into a higher debate, my interest is more with helping people just get a basic healthy diet started! I have a coach who is helping me sort out the finer details of my diet and training, and I do realise that when you get to a more advanced level all of these parameters do become highly individualistic!

My intention is just for people to become more AWARE of what they are eating. I am a firm believer in YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT, and the Hippocratic principle 'Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food'.

With the obesity epidemic going on, I see forums such as this as being a really useful tool in assisting and supporting people to sort out their lifestyle

T:withstupi

hackskii

At the time of my keto diet it just was really meat, bacon, eggs, a whey shake after workout with no carbs or fats (I noticed this actually slowed my results), chicken with the skin, heavy cream, butter for cooking, fish oils @ 12 a day, sometimes a few more and some cheese that was high fat and zero carbs.
Only protein and fats, and was always less than 20 grams a day of carbs (including the ones in the whey). Diet took off very well roughly a half a lb a day on average. Very impressed with the fat loss and used stomach measurements to verify inches loss in comparison to weigh loss.
I was also impressed with the high amounts of energy.
This diet did not slow me down in the gym or being active what so ever, in fact I felt I had actually more energy.
If mood has any indication of health, I considered myself healthy.

Measurements were tracked on a huge desk calendar with my mood, my waist size, weight loss and even the supplements I took.
Even the intensity of workouts and any cardio days (only a few) were used to gauge where I was going and what I was doing.
I didn’t have to go into this detail but it kept me motivated and have months to reflect back and see where it was I had the most or least success.
This was mostly for motivation and information only.

I do have a goal for summer time and that is the third week in May where it is the first big holiday for the summer and the River is really happening. I want to be in the best shape of my life. Beings I am 46 I do not see this as a hindrance to my goal of having one of the best bodies at the River. I feel that my knowledge on diets and workouts will apply nicely here to aid in this goal.
Pretty sad when an old man has a better body than many of the obese kids out there.
This is just my goal and I am very motivated in achieving this goal. I see it as not only achievable but I am excited to see just where it takes me.
Pics will be posted before the river.
If I can do it anybody can and even younger guys have a better chance than me.

Right now I have added in some carbs. First day was 55 grams of carbs in apple, tomato, and some collagen. I noticed that the next day the body did like it and actually lost more weight.
I have been increasing the carbs very slowly and have added some asparagus to the above too.
Fist thing I noticed was more elimination of waste. Now 4 days into my carb additions and I am really losing fast. Too much in fact and now I have to increase the food even more.
Right now I am very impressed with what is going on.
If someone is interested I would list the things I am doing now supplement wise upon request.

Sorry if I was going a bit deep, I like to think there is an answer for everything and I do ask a lot of questions which I usually find answers for. I just assumed that people understand me and take that for granted. Some of the people I talk to during the course of the day understand and for this I took it for granted everyone understands what it is I am saying. Sorry if I overcomplicate things.
I buy diet books just to see how the author does his diet. Not to pick holes in it which I do see but to get pieces of information out of it as to why does he or she do this and for what reason.
I don’t even follow the diets but buy the books for info.
I look at everything as being a huge puzzle and I like to keep the pieces that fit (for me) and just keep the other pieces on the side. I hardly ever forget the pieces as this is important to me but other things I have a terrible memory for.
Again if you look for it there are contradictions in all diets but sometimes it gets verified in a different writing and an explanation.

Cheers Tatyana, love your mind, not trying to beat you up, just get frustrated at times and take it out on you in a very direct way.
I am sorry for being so harsh on you, I am a sensitive guy and this is the reason for my harshness.

Peg

This has been quite an interesting thread.
I've understood it all.

Carbs can be addictive. They promote the same feel good endorphines.

I wonder if the keto diets act as a purging and detox of carb adictions??
I wonder if those who get terrible fat again after being on them are just intensifying their addiction?

I think every diet and every idea presented here will have its merit in "shocking" the body into a new form of adaptation.

The real issue for any success isn't about the amount of carbs.
It is about the commitment of the person to change his life style to be healthy and fit in a knowlegable responsible manner. That will take an active desire to learn about the body, re-work the mental habits about food, and change eating habits and life style.

Nature abborrs a vacuum and so anything you delete, you must have something to replace it.
Hence you have journals and journals and rows upon rows of diet books telling you what those replacements should be.

The question becomes which one works best for each individual person?
I think all information should be factored in for newbies as they learn the basics. By having a basic understanding of how the body works, it is easier for them to regulate their own diet and know what their body needs and when.
I think that same principle applies to the advanced body builders because their needs will be different and more advanced in creating new adaptations in more sublte biochemistries of the body.

The key for us on the forum is presenting that information in an understandable, practical, useable fashion for both beginners and advanced bodybuilders and perhaps have that bibliography of references for any reader to further advance his learning on what is posted in the forum.

I say a person starting out should not deny his appetite, but learn portion control in eating whatever his diet is at the moment, he then should learn how to overcome his addiction to white sugar and process foods by slowly learning how to make healthy food choices and by replacing the processed foods with those healthy choices, He should learn basic metabolism 101 which covers when his body will demand more carbs, protein, and fats during the day to day activities of work, training, stress, play, sleep or sickness.. '

Notice that the focus is really mental here and is expressed in the physical.
Until the mind is committed and the habit is established, knowledge will not be consistently applied and success will be illusive. Each person will then with the knowledge find his own successful path just as we all have done.

LOL.. just MY OPINION!!!!! :lift: :beer1: based on my own experience as an educator and conqueror of my own flab war.

Pscarb

Excellant post Peg..

agree 100% with this statement