liver problems (any ideas)

[pecman]

Hi guys and girls i am new to this forum so be gentle

I have been going to the doctors now for approx 3 months and am still none the wiser on my condition so wondered if any or you guys have had the same thing?

My results came back with my kidneys levels were maxed out Although they did say that was normal in the end due to the body mass i have, My cholestorol was 5.9 which is not good it should be around 3 although they said that the liver damage can be causing this....

My liver ALT/SGPT serum level when i first went was 161 (should be 9-55) the other tests i have had have been 161-169-231 and it is now down to 187 u/l...

I have not taken any gear for about 9 months so a little confused about this?? i cant take any hard core gear i.e high Androgens due too spots(bad ones)

The last thing i did do is nap 50's which i know is highly liver toxic but this is the first time i tried them and only for 4 weeks.

I have cut back on the protien shakes to see if i am having a reaction to these,

Have any of you guys got any ideas?? Its really effecting my workouts all over and am quite worried as toome these are high levels of liver damage..

Oh and i dont drink and have taken very mild steroids in the past.

[wogihao]

How much water do you drink?

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by pecman

Hi guys and girls i am new to this forum so be gentle

I have been going to the doctors now for approx 3 months and am still none the wiser on my condition so wondered if any or you guys have had the same thing?

My results came back with my kidneys levels were maxed out Although they did say that was normal in the end due to the body mass i have, My cholestorol was 5.9 which is not good it should be around 3 although they said that the liver damage can be causing this....

A cholesterol of 5.9 is not bad. A cholesterol of 3 could have you want to chuck yourself off a bridge. Only sick little old ladies and anorexics have cholesterols of 3. What was your HDL/LDL ratio?



My liver ALT/SGPT serum level when i first went was 161 (should be 9-55) the other tests i have had have been 161-169-231 and it is now down to 187 u/l...

I have not taken any gear for about 9 months so a little confused about this?? i cant take any hard core gear i.e high Androgens due too spots(bad ones)

The last thing i did do is nap 50's which i know is highly liver toxic but this is the first time i tried them and only for 4 weeks.

I have cut back on the protien shakes to see if i am having a reaction to these,

Have any of you guys got any ideas?? Its really effecting my workouts all over and am quite worried as toome these are high levels of liver damage..

Oh and i dont drink and have taken very mild steroids in the past.

Have you been tested for hepatitis virus?

Did you have a FBC?

Are you taking ANY other drugs, like paracetamol for training pain?

Any herbal remedies, anything?

[pecman]

Hi iam drinking about 2-3ltrs of water a day,although some days not so much depends how busy i am.

Hi Tatyana i have just been tested for

HSSAG - not detected

ANTI-HAV IGM-not detected

Hepatitis C antibody test-Not detected

my alk phos level is normal, my serum total bilirubin level is normal and my serum albumin levels are normal.

My Serum HDL cholestorol level is 0.8 mmol/l ,should be 1.0-2.0 i got an alert for this level (abnormal result)

Total Cholestorol:HDL ratio (c) is 7.4 also alert for this.

calculated LDL cholestorol level is 4.5 mmol/l,,no alert for this.

Igot an alert for serum cholestoral (c) at 5.9 stating it should be under 5.0

I am not taking any drugs at the moment apart from creatine but thats only been in the last week or so.

I hope this helps and thanks guys for the quick response.

[Tatyana]

ALT is fairly specific to the liver, but it is in a few other tissues including kidneys, heart and skeletal muscle.

Was it your creatine that was elevated as well, or urea?

Have you had a CK - creatine kinase at any point?

When I asked about drugs, I mean ANYTHING, aspirin, paracetamol, anti-biotics, vitamins, herbal remedies.

For how many months has your ALT been elevated?

In this entire time, has it only been your ALT that has been out of the reference range?

Have you had coagulation studies done as well PT/INR?

[Tatyana]

This is a list of the possible causes of persistently elevated aminotransferases.



Differential Diagnosis of Chronic Hepatitis

(aminotransferases <5X ULN)

• Chronic Hepatitis B or C
• Non-Alcoholic Steatohepatitis (NASH)

• Drug-Induced Liver Injury (DILI)
• AutoImmune Hepatitis (AIH)
• Primary Biliary Cirrhosis (PBC)
• Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis(PSC)
• Hereditary Hemochromatosis(HH)
• Wilson’s Disease
• Alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency
• Celiac Disease
• Primary Liver Cancer (Hepatocellular Carcinoma)
• MetastaticCancer

HSSAG - not detected - Chronic Hep B infection

ANTI-HAV IGM-not detected

To be honest, testing for Hep B is quite tricky, have you done any travelling or anything that would have you exposed to Hep B?

That does seem to be the most likely candidate, or drug induced damage.

Liver cancer is incredibly rare, so I woudn't worry about that.

Have you had any immunology done, like an ANA?

What has the doctor said, has he referred you to a consultant?

[pecman]

hi my creatinine level was 170 which is at the top of the normal range but they put that down too my musclemass.
I have not had a ck at any point, With the drug situation i only have ibruprofin poss twice a month at the most if i have a headache, Although i do suffer from bad hayfever so i dont know if i can take anything for that??
It has been elevated for about 3 months and however long before that, 3 months ago was my first blood test, I was suffrering bad fatigue thats why i went..

In the whole time it has mainly been the ALT but it was also the creatinine, and HDL that was also out the ref range..All the other liver functions seem to be normal apart from ALT which is about 7 times over the norm..

I have not had any coagulation studies done as yet.

I did travel too the maldives last august where i did fall ill, but i was imunised before i went, I dont know what an ANA is so i will have to say no.

In regards too my doctor they were concerned about these levels for my age and asked me if i have heart disease in my familywhich i dont.

But from the first time i went they have only put me in for liver function tests I had to ask them for the hep tests ect and i have pushed for a specialist appointment which i have got in july...

I though your kiver repaired quite quickly from alchohol/drugs ,I do not abuse steroids and never have i am a very mild user but get great results, Plus i always take long breaks between courses,And as i have said i have not touched them for about 9 months in which i would hve thought things would be back too normal by now.

Have you got advice on what i can do to get the levels to come down or do you think it is permanent damage?

I must say i am shocked how much you know on this matter, Many thanks

[Tatyana]

It's related to my job.

The liver does heal quite quickly, it is a very durable organ.

If it has only been three months, then it is not as much of an issue, I think when it gets to six months you have to start to worry.

An ANA would be to see if you have an autoimmune disease that is attacking your liver cells, causing them to leak out too much of the ALT enzyme.

They could also check for a few other metabolic things, like alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency.

The coag screen is a better indication of your liver actually working and making all the proteins it is meant to be making, albumin is not that great a measurement of this as it would take about one month for it to show a decreased synthetic capability.

Did they check your blood pressure? If your liver is not getting enough blood to it (it does take A LOT of blood), then you can also get some cell death.

Skeletal muscle damage would also cause elevated ALT (which could be from training), and a CK could help to confirm that, or taking a break from training before your next blood test.

[pecman]

Well i say 3 months but it could be a lot longer than that i did put it off for some time going to the doctor..

they did not take my blood pressure, God i wish you were my doctor they dont know nothing like what you do..

I wont have any more blood tests now until i see the specialist in july and then im supposed to take a urine sample with me!!

Thanks so much for your help but i dont see any answer too this its been going on for 3 months and could be longer and were still none the wiser.

At the moment i feel quite good but have very low energy levels and can barely get out of bed..

Thanks so much for your advice i just wish there was a pill i could use to just make it better.

1 question when/if this ever gets sorted will it be perfectly normal or will i have to cut every thing out drug wise???

Or even give up my bodybuilding all together??

Im just glad i got looked at when i did for all i know it could have been like this for years..

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by pecman

Well i say 3 months but it could be a lot longer than that i did put it off for some time going to the doctor..

they did not take my blood pressure, God i wish you were my doctor they dont know nothing like what you do..

I wont have any more blood tests now until i see the specialist in july and then im supposed to take a urine sample with me!!

Thanks so much for your help but i dont see any answer too this its been going on for 3 months and could be longer and were still none the wiser.

At the moment i feel quite good but have very low energy levels and can barely get out of bed..

Thanks so much for your advice i just wish there was a pill i could use to just make it better.

1 question when/if this ever gets sorted will it be perfectly normal or will i have to cut every thing out drug wise???

Or even give up my bodybuilding all together??

Im just glad i got looked at when i did for all i know it could have been like this for years..

Usually, with most things, it is always better to do a bit of research, see the doctor, ask loads of questions, make sure they explain EVERYTHING to you and if you don't understand, ASK AGAIN.

I love my GP, he is really great with me cause he knows I know what is going on, but that also means that I rarely get any drugs, cause most of the time, a lot of things can be sorted with diet, exercise, lifestyle modifications.

I really doubt you will have to give up BBing.

With regard to drugs, I would say that any pro-hormones or orals may be out, as well as any of the 17-alkylated steroids (I think that this is the category, I am sure one of the MODS could help with this) that may be a bit more harsh on the liver.

It really does depend on what they find out, this may just be one of those little 'blips' or it may be something that you may have to monitor and watch for a short period of time.


What sort of urine sample did they ask for?

Did they give you just a little white top container or did they give you a 24 h urine collection container?

[pecman]

All it said on the letter they gave me was bring a sample it didn't state what type or nothing and they did not supply a beaker of any sorts, I am going to have to get that of my gp i suppose..

Well i hope its a blip with all the hard work over the years ive put into this i would hate too have to give it up.

Its a bit far off but if im still around on here i will let you know how it goes if your interested?

[Tatyana]

Please do, I would like to know you are ok.

[dwg77]

Hi buddy,
Hope yr ok and keep in touch here if ya need me u no that.
Remember when i pulled both my pecs.

That ck that Tatyana mentioned, thats what hospital were going keep me in for, as they were worried i had to much in my blood which could of bloked kidneys or liver carnt remember what 1 it is. But after 7hrs on a drip and TONES of water it was low enough to let me out, just had keep drinking lot of water.

Keep thinking positive m8, & try drinking more water never know may help flush everythin better A.

[steve00]

Hi mate. Just read about ur results, hope they are improving. The totoal cholest:HDL ratio is the most accurate and over 7 is a bit high bud, but if liver not working 100% then can affect this. Make sure ur getting ur lfts and Urea and electrolytes repeated. have u had a liver scan ? Steve

[pecman]

Hi mate. Just read about ur results, hope they are improving. The totoal cholest:HDL ratio is the most accurate and over 7 is a bit high bud, but if liver not working 100% then can affect this. Make sure ur getting ur lfts and Urea and electrolytes repeated. have u had a liver scan ? Steve

Hi steve and thanks for your concern, I have seen the specialist on the 17th of July and am STILL waiting on the results of another blood test he sent me for. He tested my blood presure and had a little poke around and said that all seemed normal.

After waiting 2 bloody hours to see the guy he just rushed me through and said that he isn't that worried about it and that it was due to steroids (yeah right) and that i most prob have a fatty liver and that there is nothing i can do about it

He also said that if im still worried about it then the only other action will be a liver biopsy but he said there can be complications.

And the bad news is he went back through my records and found that when i ended up in hospital back in 06 after my comp that my liver ALT levels ect were the same back then??????

So no i am none the wiser and so it seems are the useless docs i have been dealing with, I am getting very down about this now and just wish someone could give me some frecking answers.

And yes mate i have had a liver scan done and that showed normal size which helped eliminate the cancer risk.